First referendum on banning circumcisions performed on minors

[TheGunShow777]

I'll cheer them on if they also conclude that stabbing and sucking the brains out of an 8 month old fetus is mutilation. This is not a thread jack either. Two totally separate and ludicrous procedures can be done within days of each other and one will be illegal while the other, far more atrocious one, will not? Talk about priorities.

^^^ Referenced late term abortion so don't come at me for "teh rapist makez teh babiezzz". I'll support abortion for a rape victim, but I think she can take care of that THE DAY OF, not 8 months later. 99% of abortions are just as unnecessary as 99% of non-Jewish circumcisions.

[Lifting_Taurus]

So if you witnessed your neighbour cutting off his son's ear, it wouldn't bother you? You wouldn't report it? Do you think he has the right to do that to his son?

I would think that the two are in no way related... One is a bit more extreme than the other.

I wouldn't report my neighbor if he took his son to the hospital to have his appendix or tonsils out, even if they wasn't inflamed... Because it's his son... and those two organs don't really do much and it won't effect the human body negatively if they are removed. Nor does having the foreskin removed.

It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS... Jus like it's none of yours.

[XZV]

won't effect the human body negatively if they are removed. Nor does having the foreskin removed.

It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS... Jus like it's none of yours.

What if they cut the earlobes off you dont need them so its cool right?

[danow]

Woman deciding to abort baby is legal, woman deciding to have baby circumcised should be illegal.

Humans are the most fawked in the head creature that walks this planet.

[Lifting_Taurus]

What if they cut the earlobes off you dont need them so its cool right?

Not my baby... I don't care....

So piercing the ears of a 1 month old baby girl is cool? even though completely unnecessary, to hang pretty gold and silver earring from... and is technically, a surgical procedure, performed by people with ZERO medical training, in a less than sterile environment.

While curcumsions are done in sterile environments, by trained professionals...

Which one is barbaric again?

[XZV]

Not my baby... I don't care....

So piercing the ears of a 1 month old baby girl is cool? even though completely unnecessary, to hang pretty gold and silver earring from... and is technically, a surgical procedure, performed by people with ZERO medical training, in a less than sterile environment.

While curcumsions are done in sterile environments, by trained professionals...

Which one is barbaric again?

It's still the cutting part of the cawk off one. so you honestly don't care what happens to other kids other than your own?

[Lifting_Taurus]

It's still the cutting part of the cawk off one. so you honestly don't care what happens to other kids other than your own?

Not when the outcome isn't a matter of serious injury or dismemberment.

Again, if they chopped of a finger, I'd take a stance. If my neighbor came over and said he had his sons tonsils removed, they weren't infected, but he had them removed anyway, I'd be okay with it.

So again, do you take issue with people piercing the ears fo infants or no? I can tell you, having sons and daughters, earing are more of a problem than circumcisions.... Earrings are for more likely to get infected also.

[Godfrd824]

Not when the outcome isn't a matter of serious injury or dismemberment.

Again, if they chopped of a finger, I'd take a stance. If my neighbor came over and said he had his sons tonsils removed, they weren't infected, but he had them removed anyway, I'd be okay with it.

So again, do you take issue with people piercing the ears fo infants or no? I can tell you, having sons and daughters, earing are more of a problem than circumcisions.... Earrings are for more likely to get infected also.

Yeah, I wish I had been circumcised, had my tonsils removed and while we're at it, the pinkie toes, all of these organs have caused me more issues than they're worth, all of these procedures wouldn't of have been as drastic and painful when I was a baby, but they'll hurt like hell now.

[watdafukman]

Yeah, I wish I had been circumcised, had my tonsils removed and while we're at it, the pinkie toes, all of these organs have caused me more issues than they're worth, all of these procedures wouldn't of have been as drastic and painful when I was a baby, but they'll hurt like hell now.

they probably would have hurt a ****load more when you were a baby. you just wouldn't remember it

[Plainandtall]

Hey Lifting Taurus- Here is an example of the "sterile environment" you think makes male genital cutting all hunky-dorey...if you are going to be dismissive of it- I think you need to see what you are defending. Of all circumcisions- it's this one that people are most commonly worried might be threatened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYLeV...layer_embedded

This won't take much time out of your day- in fact- it's a video from a circumcision race- and this mohel is the champion who completed the whole thing- tear the foreskin forward- slash it off- suck the blood through a little glass tube, cram the slippery bloody remnant back- support the two loose cut edges of the degloved penis with a hastily applied bandage AND get the diaper back on- start to finish in less than a minute.

Seriously- in a mere 55 seconds you can see the whole degloving happen. That's so frigging fast the germs are just standing around asking what just happened- they don't know what hit them. I think a whole 0.45 seconds was even spent observing for excessive bleeding.

OK, I was kidding about the circumcision race. It's not a race... but after the diaper is back on the mohel does throw his hands up to stop the clock and then tosses his hat in victory just like a calf roping cowboy. OK, I am kidding about that part too...but not the 55 seconds.

Note the bloody hands.

[XZV]

Not when the outcome isn't a matter of serious injury or dismemberment.

Dosent the act of circumcision carry the risk of serious injury?

Again, if they chopped of a finger, I'd take a stance. If my neighbor came over and said he had his sons tonsils removed, they weren't infected, but he had them removed anyway, I'd be okay with it.

Why would you remove them if they are causing no harm?

So again, do you take issue with people piercing the ears fo infants or no? I can tell you, having sons and daughters, earing are more of a problem than circumcisions.... Earrings are for more likely to get infected also.

I had my ear pierced when i was young didn't want them done to be honest so yeah i dont think it should be done but on the other hand my ear is healed and theres nothing left to show i had it done where as if i was circumcised id have a weird penis

...

[Plainandtall]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...F8YtHPCR3JMSMP

Beautiful little child died this week in a NYC hospital. Good thing it was doctors doing the cirucmcision... in a sterile enviornment.

[built656]

it think it one of the favorite pass-time here on the site to rage/attack/put-down anthing connect to religion/faith....
am i shock that in SAN FRANSICO the city ordanice again circumcisions
we hear all reasons...its barbaric/..no consent from the person...you are cutting etc
cause they are infants....what about the consent of the million babies we abort every year...did you ask them???

[Chezdon]

Why is this even an issue? I wish I was circumcised, I wouldn't of have remembered the excruciating pain, if I wanna do it now, I will be remembering this pain, this horrible pain, so obviously I'm not gonna do it, the foreskin is like the pinkie toe, it's not needed for anything at all. Sure, there are some benefits to having a foreskin, but there are also benefits to being circumcised, in the end, they even out.

You're usually a good poster, but this is just nonsense.

It should be illegal 100%.

There is no convincing argument to say otherwise.

I am so thankful my parents let me keep my bit of skin. I love it. I cherish it. I have nice faps and a sensitive wang.

Case closed.

[Lifting_Taurus]

You're usually a good poster, but this is just nonsense.

It should be illegal 100%.

There is no convincing argument to say otherwise.

I am so thankful my parents let me keep my bit of skin. I love it. I cherish it. I have nice faps and a sensitive wang.

Case closed.

Theres no convincing argument to say it should be any more illegal than getting someone's ear pierced without their consent either...

Once again...

I don't understand the intense love of Big Govt in this thread. It's a personal view of the parents of the children. Religious or just because dad's is done, it's not the business of the gov't or anyone else.

[Lifting_Taurus]

Hey Lifting Taurus- Here is an example of the "sterile environment" you think makes male genital cutting all hunky-dorey...if you are going to be dismissive of it- I think you need to see what you are defending. Of all circumcisions- it's this one that people are most commonly worried might be threatened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYLeV...layer_embedded

This won't take much time out of your day- in fact- it's a video from a circumcision race- and this mohel is the champion who completed the whole thing- tear the foreskin forward- slash it off- suck the blood through a little glass tube, cram the slippery bloody remnant back- support the two loose cut edges of the degloved penis with a hastily applied bandage AND get the diaper back on- start to finish in less than a minute.

Seriously- in a mere 55 seconds you can see the whole degloving happen. That's so frigging fast the germs are just standing around asking what just happened- they don't know what hit them. I think a whole 0.45 seconds was even spent observing for excessive bleeding.

OK, I was kidding about the circumcision race. It's not a race... but after the diaper is back on the mohel does throw his hands up to stop the clock and then tosses his hat in victory just like a calf roping cowboy. OK, I am kidding about that part too...but not the 55 seconds.

Note the bloody hands.

Sarah (plainandtall),

I'm at work, but thanks for the break down...

Question:

How many babies have their entire penis removed because of an infection received during a circumcision?

How many die?

How many grown men sit back and think, damn, I miss my foreskin?

[Plainandtall]

Yeah, I wish I had been circumcised, had my tonsils removed and while we're at it, the pinkie toes, all of these organs have caused me more issues than they're worth, all of these procedures wouldn't of have been as drastic and painful when I was a baby, but they'll hurt like hell now.

Stats: 6'1" 272#... is quite positive itty bitty baby can take pain better than he can.

Listen, when you are man- you know all about your penis and what it's good for... you know all about pleasure and your sexual wiring is pretty set. You also, in your life- have probably been hurt a few times... been injured, been sick, been heartbroke... know what different kinds of pain are like- understand the source of the pain and also know that it's finite. I mean, sometimes when you are really sick with something like the flu- it might feel like you are gonna die and it's never going to end- but rationally- you know- two days from then- you'll be back in the swing of things. break a leg? hurts like hell. why does my leg hurt? It's broken fool. Get a cast- Dr. say- we'll take this off in a month. You have something to look forward too... and a script for some pain meds.

Little bitty baby? Doesn't know anything about pain. Don't understand why things hurt. Doesn't know how long it takes to feel better. Has very limited pain relief options, has no way to describe his pain on a scale of one to ten. Not only that... little bitty baby has never had an orgasm, no wank, no sex... total innocence down there... and the first thing- the very first time his little penis sends a important message to his brain- what's the message? There is a metal clamp crushing the nerves here! What the f is this? Where is my mom? No one has any business putting torture signals up those sexual nerves the very first time they are used. Not only that- but the baby has to piss in a diaper- on the wound. It's filthy- and very often circumcised kids get adhesions that cause them even more pain and cause them to get circumcised again. The circumciser can only guess at the cosmetic outcome because they are operating on a penis that's about an inch long- having no idea what that man is going to need to cover an erection after puberty.

Wanna see what circumcising guesswork looks like on chubby little kids? here- have at it:
(Warning- straight to graphic photos of healed circumcised kids)http://www.rogerknapp.com/medical/circ_incomplete.htm

Their penis has retreated into their pubic fat pad and their circumcision scar is flipped inside out and is now touching the surface of their immature glans- ready to form skin bridges.

Here is a story from a mom who circumcised twin boys- both wound up with recurring adhesions and lots of extra pain and aftercare. Mom finishes the tale of woe with her cognitive dissonance intact and delivers a final sexist kick to the nuts that somehow this is the "innocent" root of male penis obsession- (as if THEY were the ones who chose this!)
http://www.louisvillemojo.com/blogs/...__Two_of_them_

An adult circumcision is a very specific thing that can be measured and decided by the man exactly what he wants.

Babies who are circumcised- even with pain relief- have a greater reaction to pain when they get vaccination shots than kids who weren't circumcised. (research paper by Anna Taddio) So the pain isn't forgotten - it's hardwired into their nervous system. This pain is the foundation of their pain experience- it's not gone with infant amnesia- it's the foundation for everything else. It does not inoculate them to pain- it hyper sensitizes them to it. The infant nervous system is a delicate thing- look into it and stop intellectually abusing their inability to speak to rationalize torture.

No one owes anyone a genital modification surgery they don't need so they won't remember it. Will you get that stupid meme out of your head? If a chick can stand remembering the pain of a boob job (or the birth of that soon to be circumcised-so-he-won't-remember-it baby) I assure you, you can take it.

I wish you would just go get yourself circumcised already and stop wallowing around in this misplaced self pity that you have been cursed with a human penis. The thought of you taking this attitude into a career as a medical doctor is disturbing. I would so much rather you could reflect about how your circumcision as an adult was the greatest regret of your life, than exposing vulnerable parents to your sniveling idea that men aren't man enough to go get their own sexual body-mods.

[Plainandtall]

Sarah (plainandtall),

I'm at work, but thanks for the break down...

Question:

How many babies have their entire penis removed because of an infection received during a circumcision?

How many die?

How many grown men sit back and think, damn, I miss my foreskin?

Taurus- I'm going to have to go to work soon, so we might have to finish this convo tomorrow- I hope you can watch the vid when you get home.

I wish I had the answers to your questions. No one does. There is no database. Even the AAP in their policy statement says the risk of complications is "unknown" (but as I mentioned in an earlier post- they then go on to fudge approximate numbers in a way that can be verified- I mentioned citing the incidence of meatal stenosis)

The problem is that many hospitals settle botched circumcision cases with gag orders as a part of the settlement- so this is swept under the carpet. Also many of the deaths are hidden by other causes- for example- kids have cried so hard they have a gastric rupture, that death is called "gastric rupture" Last fall a baby in Indianapolis died the day after his circumcision from heart failure. He happened to be a critically ill kid with a heart defect. His circumcision was botched and he bled for 7 hours before the bleeding was stopped... within twelve hours he was dead. I personally contacted the corner and asked for an enquiry, it was investigated and closed- his heart was blamed... never mind that there was nothing wrong with his penis and there was no reason to circumcise such a sick child AND the circumcision nicked his frenular artery AND he was on drugs that could have interfered with clotting.

I have a friend who is a legal secretary at a law office specializing in circumcision lawsuits. They have business year round. It keeps coming in. Hospitals settle, it doesn't make the news and the phone rings.

Personally- I don't need the worst case horror stories (google "I think this child has an infected penis") to think that circumcision is wrong. Even a "perfect" circumcision changes a man's body forever and violates his right to bodily integrity. If you grabbed an intact man off the street of Madrid and forcefully circumcised him- you would know that was a crime against his person... you wouldn't need to botch it to have it be wrong. I think every child, not just adult men in non-circumcising cultures, has a right to his whole body.

Many men have a very hard time considering circumcision. The number of men who are not happy about having it does to them exceeds the number of men who would choose it they had a choice... and in my opinion- even if only one man objected to what was done to him- I would be able to acknowledge his feelings as valid. It's his body and it's his only penis, he has a right to all of it, and no other person has a right to cut him. I haven't been keeping track, but I think at least three men in this thread have said that they are not happy it happened to them- that's a lot of people for just this one thread...multiply that by millions of circumcised men every year and I could guess that there are a couple of million American men who were circumcised and would have rather not been.

There is also a very real and very serious social stigma in our country that if you don't like being circumcised there must be something wrong with YOU. You must be gay, or impotent, or don't have better things to worry about etc etc... you know the drill. I am SURE you have heard it. "Every man I know is happy to be circumcised and if you aren't then STFU queer." isn't that how it goes? A man who isn't happy is strongly pressured to keep quiet- so the silence is not evidence of the overall joy about circumcision among men... it's something else.

[sy2502]

Theres no convincing argument to say it should be any more illegal than getting someone's ear pierced without their consent either...

I really don't get why you keep bringing up this ridiculous analogy. You really don't see the difference? I had my ears pierced the 1st time when I was 15. I chose to have it done. There was no blood, practically no pain, and it was limited to the actual moment of the piercing, there were no complication, and when I stopped wearing earings for a while, the holes closed over.
Now compare with getting cut. Would you choose to have it done at 15? Would there be blood? How long would it hurt? Are there possible severe complications? Is it reversible?

I don't understand the intense love of Big Govt in this thread. It's a personal view of the parents of the children. Religious or just because dad's is done, it's not the business of the gov't or anyone else.

Children are people entrusted to you. It is the government's business whether you feed them or not. It is the government business whether you sexually assault them or beat them or mistreat them or not. It is the government business if you leave them alone in a parked car. It is the government business if you send them to school or not. It is the government business if they ride in a car seat or not. The reason for all these things is that you don't have complete power of life and death on these other human beings just because you are bigger and stronger.