First referendum on banning circumcisions performed on minors

[Beeewbs]

Serious question for cut brahs how the fuk do you walk around with it touching your boxers? its like torture without the foreskin

It loses sensitivity over the years.

To the people who are anti-circumcision, why does it bother you so much?

Nobody in this topic who was circumcised seems to have a problem with it, so why do you?

I'm circumcised and I have a problem with it. Do I wish I was uncircumcised? Not really, but I think there is no justifiable reason for doing it. It's a needlessly stressful/painful procedure for most males.

There are far bigger issues in the world today

You could say that for just about any issue.

[primetime32]

So if you witnessed your neighbour cutting off his son's ear, it wouldn't bother you? You wouldn't report it? Do you think he has the right to do that to his son?

I watched my neighbors take their young daughter and puncture her ears so they can hang decorations from her and no one screamed for a new law.

[primetime32]

There are many Jewish men who resent being circumcised/or support Genital Integrity. In the intactivist community a disproportionate number of the men (in regards to the portion of the general population of America) are Jewish. Some of the most outspoken voices (many of them authors) for genital integrity are Jewish men:

Dean Edell
Paul Fleiss
Ronald Goldman
Norm Cohen
Leonard Glick
Edward Wallerstein
Howard Stern

ok and there are millions of religious jews that would be ten times more upset that they were forced to have the procedure as an adult because some morons in San Francisco decided that it was barbaric. I have no problem with Howard Stern NOT circumcising his own son if that is what he wants.

[primetime32]

So if you witnessed your neighbour cutting off his son's ear, it wouldn't bother you? You wouldn't report it? Do you think he has the right to do that to his son?

And its not surprising to see someone who calls herself tiffany WANTSMORE being upset that guys are circumsized.

[Tiffany Wantsmore]

I watched my neighbors take their young daughter and puncture her ears so they can hang decorations from her and no one screamed for a new law.

I also disagree with piercing babies' ears as it happens, but the holes close up eventually. It's not permanent disfigurement.

And its not surprising to see someone who calls herself tiffany WANTSMORE being upset that guys are circumsized.

Good comeback

Hardly anyone here is circumcised. It's great knowing there's a 95% chance of a guy you sleep with having a nice juicy foreskin. It's so much easier to handle.

[primetime32]

I also disagree with piercing babies' ears as it happens, but the holes close up eventually. It's not permanent disfigurement.

Its a disfigurement that most women prefer. Obviosuly you are a big fan of the foreskin but I know plenty of women that think its ugly. You make it seem as if guys are routinely kicked out of bed when a women disovers this "disfigurement" when in fact more women are likely to be "grossed out" by someone who is uncircumsized.

[XZV]

That's another thing with being uncircumcised, way too sensitive.

Why the hell would anyone want a less sensitive cawk? this thread is ridiculous

[Beeewbs]

ok and there are millions of religious jews that would be ten times more upset that they were forced to have the procedure as an adult because some morons in San Francisco decided that it was barbaric. I have no problem with Howard Stern NOT circumcising his own son if that is what he wants.

Ten times, huh? You scientifically calculated their anger levels when compared to those who didn't want to be mutilated? How can you justify a pointless mutilation by saying some of them will be angry if they DON'T have it done to them? They can do it when they are older, whereas there is no easy or perfect way to restore the foreskin. It's ridiculous to argue for the mutilation of children without consent because some people might want it done later in life. Some women want breast implants when they're older. Let's give all little girls breast implants. Some men want to become women when they're older. Let's just hack all penises off.

I watched my neighbors take their young daughter and puncture her ears so they can hang decorations from her and no one screamed for a new law.

I want a law against parents doing that. It's actually quite the health risk, especially if they take their kid to some teen girl in the mall with improper equipment and poor training.

[primetime32]

How can you justify a pointless mutilation by saying some of them will be angry if they DON'T have it done to them? They can do it when they are older, whereas there is no easy or perfect way to restore the foreskin.

LOL, you are aware that the pain to an adult is significantly more intense than it is for a child and if you ask every religious Jew, 99 percent of them would tell you that they are happy they were circumcized when they were a newborn and not when they were 18.

Again, i was raised Jewish and 90 percent of my friends are jewish and we openly talk about stuff like this and every last one of them is happy it was done before they were an adult.

[Tiffany Wantsmore]

Its a disfigurement that most women prefer. Obviosuly you are a big fan of the foreskin but I know plenty of women that think its ugly. You make it seem as if guys are routinely kicked out of bed when a women disovers this "disfigurement" when in fact more women are likely to be "grossed out" by someone who is uncircumsized.

Most women in America perhaps. Women throughout Europe are much less likely to find foreskins groce, because everyone has one. Societal norms. However, I am glad that I live in the society where the natural look is preferred.

Of course, Americans routinely declaw their cats, so perhaps that adds to the general outlook that mutilation is acceptable.

[Plainandtall]

You really shouldn't concern yourself so much with the genitalia of everyone else.

I couldn't give two shyts about what my neighbors son has done to his... He isn't my kid...

Why are you so interested?

The answer is that I just don’t think American men and women are being given a fair chance to overcome this. When an “unbiased” trusted resource (like the Mayo Clinic) outlines the potential benefits of circumcision- and suggests we should balance them against the possible risks of surgery… but fails to enter the value or purpose of the anatomy which is lost in every case- If we don’t even have the correct equation in front of us- how can we possibly find the correct answer? I love this country, and I love the people who live here, but I feel humiliated to think that my peers accept infant genital cutting as cultural practice- an expectation even. Don’t we all have a duty to let our peers know that we do not expect them to do this? If we keep silent- they may operate on assumptions, just like the assumption that all circumcised men are happy and thankful to be circumcised. Many people have a very hard time accepting this information- it’s difficult stuff to stomach! I understand that- but that doesn’t mean that silence is the answer.

Taurus- I was once working at a conference for childbirth professionals staffing a circumcision information booth- with the goal of convincing childbirth educators that they had to actually teach people about this... not just give them the details about who does it and when. (I'm going to get to the story in a second here) ...anyway- you would not imagine the number of teachers who told me they don't cover circumcision at all..or do it with a ten foot pole because they are afraid of stepping on toes or causing anyone bad feelings- see that's the problem- you don't even need to use loaded language or over the top activist rhetoric- if you simply explain how the natural human penis works- and how a foreskin is a part of the mechanics of intercourse- simple non-judgemental information like that- lands in the laps of the circumcised dads- or the parents who already circumcised a child like a grenade. They don't want it- and the teachers don't want to be the messenger- so they just say, "well it's a very personal decision for a family" and they leave it at that...

... so in the hall of this convention there was a vendor near my booth who was selling medical posters and flip charts and books of anatomy. On the second day, during a lull, the chart vendor comes over to to visit me and to discuss the gist of my booth. Turns out he was a Jewish man who had never given circumcision much thought, he was open and very considerate, not defensive or anything, just taking it in- we had a nice conversation. So I asked him if it would be OK with him if I looked through the materials at his booth to see what was there and how male anatomy was presented. He was interested to see as well, so together we went pouring through all his books and charts... the look of shock on his face grew as neither of us could find a single illustration which was not circumcised. He'd never noticed before- but now that I'd called his attention to it- he saw that his whole stock of materials was like some weird conspiracy to keep men (and women) in the dark and he'd played a part in it without even realising.

Go to the bookstore- go to the "expecting" books and check the index of as many as you can stomach- 50% won't even have an entry- 25% will give it a page at most of evenly balanced risks and benefits of circumcision with zero information about the anatomy lost in every case. The other 25% will tell you to research it before the baby is born- without actually delivering any information- gee- thanks childbirth author... I thought reading a BOOK might help me get information- but since you are to chicken$hit to even deliver it- I guess America is back to... "well dad is..."

[RBLOCK]

To the people who are anti-circumcision, why does it bother you so much?

Nobody in this topic who was circumcised seems to have a problem with it, so why do you?

There are far bigger issues in the world today

LOL. Good job skipping half of my posts, dude. You lose.

[RBLOCK]

You really shouldn't concern yourself so much with the genitalia of everyone else.

I couldn't give two shyts about what my neighbors son has done to his... He isn't my kid...

Why are you so interested?

I have the ability to empathize with other human beings: to consider myself in their position.

[RBLOCK]

Why the hell would anyone want a less sensitive cawk? this thread is ridiculous

This^ is the European attitude on the subject, and the only one that makes much sense.

[sy2502]

LOL, you are aware that the pain to an adult is significantly more intense than it is for a child and if you ask every religious Jew, 99 percent of them would tell you that they are happy they were circumcized when they were a newborn and not when they were 18.

Again, i was raised Jewish and 90 percent of my friends are jewish and we openly talk about stuff like this and every last one of them is happy it was done before they were an adult.

Well, if it really was that important to you, you'd get it done anyway I would think... I am not religious so I am not familiar with the concept of going to extremes to please one's deity, but I'd guess if you thought you were going to go to hell if you didn't do it, you'd do it, pain or not.

[RBLOCK]

LOL, you are aware that the pain to an adult is significantly more intense than it is for a child and if you ask every religious Jew, 99 percent of them would tell you that they are happy they were circumcized when they were a newborn and not when they were 18.

Again, i was raised Jewish and 90 percent of my friends are jewish and we openly talk about stuff like this and every last one of them is happy it was done before they were an adult.

That statement is silly. You really think a week old baby has more mental fortitude to withstand pain than a fully grown man? How does that make any sense?

[Rune]

LOL, you are aware that the pain to an adult is significantly more intense than it is for a child

Well, that's just a straight up lie... an infant simply doesn't retain memory in the same manner as a developed human.. they don't have concept of self, and as such cannot form memories around such a concept yet. Other than that, all the biochemicals and nerve pathways are already there.. and actually more sensitive because they're not used to input yet. Kind of like if you break your leg, get tossed in a cast for 8 week, and when it comes off your leg is sensitive as fuk and even the slightest prick on it feels 100x more painful than the other foot.

and if you ask every religious Jew, 99 percent of them would tell you that they are happy they were circumcized when they were a newborn and not when they were 18.

of course, as an adult getting the tip of your cock cut off sounds like the dumbest **** anybody would have ever heard.. but do it to a kid and it's not an issue? strong empathy.

[Plainandtall]

What it looks like...

I remember the first time I saw a penis in real life, was also the night I lost my virginity.

First thing I noticed- it's size. Frighteningly big, couldn't fathom that this was sex thing going to work. Yikes!

Next- It's veins... I guess i wasn't really expecting the veins to look like that. Like- WOW.

Next- the change- that this was the same thing that was inside the jeans an hour before...incredible!

Next- Ballsack... curious thing. I never really understood how guys rode bicycles, was interested to finally see how it's arranged down there. ...and the way the scrotum skin can move- I was amazed.

Next- the color, like the veins- not really expecting it to be such an intense color like that.

Next- the heat, so warm to touch-

Next- the hair patterns on his body- such a contrast to my skin

Did the guy have a foreskin? yes. Did his foreskin even register in the list of shocking aspects of his penis that this virgin was learning about? Nope.

What I will say is that all of his body was his... and it was obviously all interconnected... no dotted lines anywhere on his penis... the veins ran here and there branching - some thick and some just tiny little capillaries... and all were unbroken and obviously part of the same vital system of hie erection and sexual pleasure. It's not like he guided my hand saying, "Don't bother touching here- this is just dead garbage- this over here is the real penis, this here, is nothing." It was all his, sexy, him. So I learned about a man's body from a man who had his whole body. I am not some sort of humanitarian saint because I was able to get past the fact that this man was an unaltered man. There is nothing gross or weird or dirty about a man. Nothing.

Women don't have a right to have two kinds of male genitals to choose from. Men come with one kind, it's not like picking blonds or brunettes... "Do you like human men, or do you prefer them to be sexually violated at birth?" I just don't get this whole- "Broken women from a broken society are afraid of the natural human body- so it's good it was done to me." Women don't need to have this choice and they certainly don't need to have parents stocking the shelves of the future with surgically modified children for women who haven't even been born to eventually prefer. This is sexism against men and you men are promoting it ex post facto- because it benefits your ego.

Does a man have a right to prefer a woman with her labia scraped out as an infant? Sure, women who had that done to them are deserving of love, just as much as any other woman... but to perpetuate the cutting because men have been habituated to this violation of the beautiful body of a new baby girl? Are you for real? This is exactly what you are proposing!

[iSimplyDontLose]

What it looks like...

I remember the first time I saw a penis in real life, was also the night I lost my virginity.

First thing I noticed- it's size. Frighteningly big, couldn't fathom that this was sex thing going to work. Yikes!

Next- It's veins... I guess i wasn't really expecting the veins to look like that. Like- WOW.

Next- the change- that this was the same thing that was inside the jeans an hour before...incredible!

Next- Ballsack... curious thing. I never really understood how guys rode bicycles, was interested to finally see how it's arranged down there. ...and the way the scrotum skin can move- I was amazed.

Next- the color, like the veins- not really expecting it to be such an intense color like that.

Next- the heat, so warm to touch-

Next- the hair patterns on his body- such a contrast to my skin

Did the guy have a foreskin? yes. Did his foreskin even register in the list of shocking aspects of his penis that this virgin was learning about? Nope.

What I will say is that all of his body was his... and it was obviously all interconnected... no dotted lines anywhere on his penis... the veins ran here and there branching - some thick and some just tiny little capillaries... and all were unbroken and obviously part of the same vital system of hie erection and sexual pleasure. It's not like he guided my hand saying, "Don't bother touching here- this is just dead garbage- this over here is the real penis, this here, is nothing." It was all his, sexy, him. So I learned about a man's body from a man who had his whole body. I am not some sort of humanitarian saint because I was able to get past the fact that this man was an unaltered man. There is nothing gross or weird or dirty about a man. Nothing.

Women don't have a right to have two kinds of male genitals to choose from. Men come with one kind, it's not like picking blonds or brunettes... "Do you like human men, or do you prefer them to be sexually violated at birth?" I just don't get this whole- "Broken women from a broken society are afraid of the natural human body- so it's good it was done to me." Women don't need to have this choice and they certainly don't need to have parents stocking the shelves of the future with surgically modified children for women who haven't even been born to eventually prefer. This is sexism against men and you men are promoting it ex post facto- because it benefits your ego.

Does a man have a right to prefer a woman with her labia scraped out as an infant? Sure, women who had that done to them are deserving of love, just as much as any other woman... but to perpetuate the cutting because men have been habituated to this violation of the beautiful body of a new baby girl? Are you for real? This is exactly what you are proposing!

Woah...

Also just so people know I'm Jewish as well and we don't all sit round discussing our cawks with our pals like Primetime apparently does.

[sy2502]

of course, as an adult getting the tip of your cock cut off sounds like the dumbest **** anybody would have ever heard.. but do it to a kid and it's not an issue? strong empathy.

I guess this answers an earlier question of why does anybody care. For me it's precisely that kind of attitude that disturbs me. Treating kids like they are less than human, or their parents' property, or like human rights don't apply to them. Children are the weakest members of our species, so what do we do? We treat them... worse? Odd thinking.

[RBLOCK]

Woah...

Also just so people know I'm Jewish as well and we don't all sit round discussing our cawks with our pals like Primetime apparently does.

Start talking about it. Do some research. The Morris Sorrells study indicates that the 5 most sensitive points on the human penis are completely removed by circumcision:

http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/bju_6685.pdf

How can you assume that a tradition is good without doing any research? It's like getting a shot when you don't know what's in the syringe.

[Plainandtall]

of course, as an adult getting the tip of your cock cut off sounds like the dumbest **** anybody would have ever heard.. but do it to a kid and it's not an issue? strong empathy.

Ha- Rune thinks they cut off the tip of the penis. Rune, if you were looking at things from the perspective of the Mayo Clinic, you would know that circumcision does no such thing...circumcision only cuts off the useless part that covers the tip. Start with a circumcised penis and work backwards from there. It makes more sense that way.

Here is an illustration showing a normal penis and a "grody ookey uncircumcised" one... oh all right, they didn't label them normal and uncircumcised... they are medical professionals from a superduper prestigious institution... they wouldn't do something THAT sexist and obvious...would they? No, they just labeled them circumcised and uncircumcised. No bias to be found in defining the male body by surgery not yet done to it! http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/medical/IM02647

How's this for an idea Mayo clinic?... next time try "Penis" and "Penis after circumcision" and then we can start to move away from this "ised" idea which is really weird in a medical context.

Defined?
Here the Mayo Clinic defines circumcision without using the word prepuce or foreskin! F-ing brilliant!! How do they come up with this stuff!!??

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/circumcision/MY01023

"Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis. Circumcision is fairly common for newborn boys in certain parts of the world, including the United States — making it the most common surgical procedure in newborn males worldwide. Circumcision after the newborn period is a more complicated procedure that may require general anesthesia.

For some families, circumcision is a religious ritual. Circumcision can also be a matter of family tradition, personal hygiene or preventive health care. For others, however, circumcision seems unnecessary or disfiguring. After circumcision, it isn't generally possible to re-create the appearance of an uncircumcised penis. "

Notice how they emphasise how popular circumcision is all around the world including the United States while never stating a real purpose or concrete outcome. While they are busy not using words like prepuce, frenulum and foreskin... maybe they'd care to list some of those places where circumcision is so popular outside the USA? The second paragraph is a real muddle, notice that when listing reasons why it is done- circumcision IS... but when we move to reasons against- it only "seems" never mind that no medical group in the whole world says it's necessary- from the POV of the Mayo Clinic it only seems unnecessary. As for the last sentence- I don't even know what they are huffing! That is just a weird thing to include in a definition of circumcision. I mean, rather than suggesting you can't undo what's been done- wouldn't it it make sense instead to give a nod to *why* tens of thousands of men are trying to do just that... maybe by explaining a little about the "ehem" and the "you know".

[Rune]

Notice how they emphasise how popular circumcision is all around the world including the United States while never stating a real purpose or concrete outcome. While they are busy not using words like prepuce, frenulum and foreskin... maybe they'd care to list some of those places where circumcision is so popular outside the USA? The second paragraph is a real muddle, notice that when listing reasons why it is done- circumcision IS... but when we move to reasons against- it only "seems" never mind that no medical group in the whole world says it's necessary- from the POV of the Mayo Clinic it only seems unnecessary. As for the last sentence- I don't even know what they are huffing! That is just a weird thing to include in a definition of circumcision. I mean, rather than suggesting you can't undo what's been done- wouldn't it it make sense instead to give a nod to *why* tens of thousands of men are trying to do just that... maybe by explaining a little about the "ehem" and the "you know".

I wonder how much they charge to cut your baby's penis up. Sounds like a solid ad campaign, lol.

[danow]

San Francisco/

[Plainandtall]

I wonder how much they charge to cut your baby's penis up. Sounds like a solid ad campaign, lol.

"Circumcise him with the quickness- before someone else does!"
-Ancient Mayo Clinic Proverb

[Blindead]

Hardly anyone here is circumcised. It's great knowing there's a 95% chance of a guy you sleep with having a nice juicy foreskin. It's so much easier to handle.

w.t.f....

[GrokTheCube]

Serious question for cut brahs how the fuk do you walk around with it touching your boxers? its like torture without the foreskin

Mine is cut, but at least half of the head is covered when it's flacid, and I've wondered the same thing. If I get a semi or something and the head is completely exposed against fabric, it's agonizing.

To the people who are anti-circumcision, why does it bother you so much?

Nobody in this topic who was circumcised seems to have a problem with it, so why do you?

There are far bigger issues in the world today

I'm circumcised, and I think it's a barbaric practice and would completely support a ban.

[Weightaholic]

I watched my neighbors take their young daughter and puncture her ears so they can hang decorations from her and no one screamed for a new law.

This is a poor analogy. A pierced ear heals over quite quickly, and in most cases, invisibly. it is, to all extents and purposes, invisible.

A better analogy would be if you watched your neighbours take their young daughter off to get part of her genitals removed. Or perhaps her nose. Something that is not so readily healed.

[LankedF1braz]

It's a shame that circumcising girls is illegal.

It would be some much better if all females had their clitorises lopped off. Just think of the benefits:

-More hygienic, for example, no chances of getting stuff like toilet paper caught in the clitoral hood, so they won't need to wash themselves very often.

-No clitoral stimulation means it will take longer to achieve orgasm, therefore longer-lasting sex. Win-win?

-Girls vulvas will appear more aesthetic. Let's be honest, the vag would be a lot better looking without that micro penor all in your face. Guys will never go for uncut girls after they have experienced cut girls.

-If enough people have it done then it will become a social norm and it will be quickly engrained into mainstream cultural ideals. Daughters will have it done just because their mothers have been circumcised as well.

-Besides, it's unconstitutional to not be able to surgically alter your infant daughter's genitals for non-medical reasons. Land of the free? Yeah, right.

AmIrite?

[Weightaholic]

It's a shame that circumcising girls is illegal.

It would be some much better if all females had their clitorises lopped off. Just think of the benefits:

-More hygienic, for example, no chances of getting stuff like toilet paper caught in the clitoral hood, so they won't need to wash themselves very often.

-No clitoral stimulation means it will take longer to achieve orgasm, therefore longer-lasting sex. Win-win?

-Girls vulvas will appear more aesthetic. Let's be honest, the vag would be a lot better looking without that micro penor all in your face. Guys will never go for uncut girls after they have experienced cut girls.

-If enough people have it done then it will become a social norm and it will be quickly engrained into mainstream cultural ideals. Daughters will have it done just because their mothers have been circumcised as well.

-Besides, it's unconstitutional to not be able to surgically alter your infant daughter's genitals for non-medical reasons. Land of the free? Yeah, right.

AmIrite?

/thread.