First referendum on banning circumcisions performed on minors

[Tiffany Wantsmore]

Ya... I don't listen to peons who make such ludicrous claims.. sorry. God commands us to circumcise the males and there's scientific reasons why we should. That doesn't seem like a contradiction.. now does it?

That's a bit of a long way round, isn't it? Why not just create men without foreskins? Obviously that in itself is a contradiction "create man with foreskin. Command him to cut it off", lolwut

This is where I call bull****.. my little cousin, who was not circumcised (against doctor's recommendation), ended up with UTI within 1 year. He never cried when he peed / crapped his diapers... until one morning, according to my aunt, he started to cry like he has never cried before. My aunt wasn't sure as to what happened since there wasn't any sort of markings on him.. a few hours later, again he cried intensively... finally after the 4 time (the next day), my aunt realized that every time we cried it was when he urinated.

Because of his young age (small appendage, thus bacteria can reach bladder much faster), they also had to check his bladder to make sure that wasn't infected, since apparently the first stages of UTI isn't even painful, it's when it starts to infect large portions is when it really becomes painful... After all said and done, she had him circumcised.

If anecdotal evidence is allowed, my son is not cut and has never had a UTI, even as a baby.

[RBLOCK]

1. Yes I will have him circumcised.

2. There is no death penalty for apostate.

3. You mad?

"The punishment for apostasy from Islam is a controversial topic for Muslims living in the West and for ex-Muslims everywhere. That’s because Islam teaches that apostates are to be killed."
Source: http://www.answering-islam.de/Silas/apostasy.htm

Yes, I am pretty mad about this. I feel like more people would hop off the religion train and start acting like reasonable people if they didn't fear for their lives.

[RBLOCK]

"The punishment for apostasy from Islam is a controversial topic for Muslims living in the West and for ex-Muslims everywhere. That’s because Islam teaches that apostates are to be killed."
Source: http://www.answering-islam.de/Silas/apostasy.htm

Yes, I am pretty mad about this. I feel like more people would hop off the religion train and start acting like reasonable people if they didn't fear for their lives.

Here's Dawkins asking a Muslim scholar the same question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VselUW4Aoxg

[mistercollie]

So would you also be okay with parents putting up tattoos all over their childrens faces and necks? Trying to follow your argument for allowing parents to perform actions on their children that are mostly irreversible.

Things like tattoos and alcohol are permissible with consent. That's not something I am willing to change. I do not feel I should adopt, however, a majority decision based on some society's moral interest.

I feel all forms of legalism like this are appalling and are just giving the government more authority than it deserves. The fact that people aren't tattooing their children proves such rhetoric invalid. 99% of the time, the parents are doing something out of good motive for their child. Simply labeling a practice like this as "mutilation" violates their conscience. No one here is even arguing the reality of what happens - just the "implied reality". The fact that remains is that many who have had it do not feel violated, and often are appreciative. Fight those facts please.

What you've just said basically boils down to "If other people get to kill their babies, then by golly, I should be able to do genital surgery on my babies!"

Somehow you don't seem to be on the moral high ground. I wish people didn't abort babies. I also wish that they didn't cut baby genitals. If I can stop the genital cutting then I'll do it.

The first portion I'm going to dismiss because I'm not advocating some type of moral entitlement.

I honestly do not care to debate the semantics of this situation. Using language like "mutilation" is just a smearing of what people have genuinely perceived it to be. At any rate, the moral divide on disagreement on this issue speaks volumes of what the reality SHOULD be. In short, no ban necessary. If you don't want something done to your child, then behold... the freedom to not have it done remains. Equating my parents, sincere people, or people of Judaism to narcissistic mutilators is obscene...

This is such a nitpicky issue. I don't understand how people recently decided "this was such an evil". I don't even care to argue about it anymore.

[RBLOCK]

Equating my parents, sincere people, or people of Judaism to narcissistic mutilators is obscene...

This is such a nitpicky issue. I don't understand how people recently decided "this was such an evil". I don't even care to argue about it anymore.

I want every boy in the world to be left alone and allowed to have a normal set of reproductive organs. If that's an obscenity, then I guess I'm just a really vulgar guy.

[illriginalized]

"The punishment for apostasy from Islam is a controversial topic for Muslims living in the West and for ex-Muslims everywhere. That’s because Islam teaches that apostates are to be killed."
Source: http://www.answering-islam.de/Silas/apostasy.htm

Yes, I am pretty mad about this. I feel like more people would hop off the religion train and start acting like reasonable people if they didn't fear for their lives.

The death penalty was during a historical event... not one that is applied today in Islam. Unless history were to repeat itself.

Maybe you should pick up on some history


Is this how you're going to prove your point about this topic? By going off topic with silly posts about my religion?


and lol @ your anti-Islam website.

[ne12o]

There's no need for a law for this OP, the decision rests with the parents and them becoming informed. That's where you should concentrate your efforts. Not on more intrusion from the government.

This. People are shying away from trying to convince people and going to the government to lay down the hammer.

[RBLOCK]

The death penalty was during a historical event... not one that is applied today in Islam. Unless history were to repeat itself.

Maybe you should pick up on some history

Is this how you're going to prove your point about this topic? By going off topic with silly posts about my religion?

It's likely that Islam in general is getting more moderate as time goes by. I know some Muslims in the USA, and none of them have more than one wife or go around killing infidels. As older, less reasonable practices are abandoned, I hope that circumcision will be among them. And I'll repeat what I said before: if an adult wants to make a tangible commitment to a religion that requires it, his circumcision in adulthood will be infinitely more meaningful than an event in which he had no say.

[sy2502]

This. People are shying away from trying to convince people and going to the government to lay down the hammer.

How do you plan to reasonably convince people who believe their baby is going to hell if they don't take a blade to their private parts?

[southeastoz]

...

fukin' lol.


Oh and I'll pass judgment on someone like yourself... who perverts science by believing that the subject only exists to disprove, "God". That my friend, is what I call a peon. A slave to a subject for the wrong reason(s).

LOL passing judgment, love how you're sticking to your fictitious guidelines, thank you for bringing the lols and showing the inherent hypocrisy of a cafeteria theist. Getting a bit off topic there aren't you though kid? If you would like to point to where I said science exists to disprove god I would appreciate that greatly!

And LOL at self ownage, so you're saying if there are medical benefits to a procedure, then it is deemed medically necessary? Notsureifsrs

I would classify a peon as someone who can't even comprehend opposing argument because his dissonance is so high, and his dogma so ingrained that he simply can't comprehend it. A peon - going by your religion alone it seems like quite a sufficient label. I'm not one to judge though so I won't say it, but I'm sure as hell thinking it.

And further lol at no death penalty for apostates. Not even going to bother referencing that with muslim scholar sources, as it's obvious no amount of logic will change your position.

[Plainandtall]

Rdez- Are you familiar with the history of circumcision (medicalized non-religious hospital infant circumcision) in the USA in regards to the historical climate of patients rights and medical history?

From reading your posts here, I get the feeling that you are like one nightmare away from figuring out what the problem with infant circumcision is... but you are sticking to beliefs that are based on falsehoods.

For example- currently parents have the ability to say no to circumcision if they choose, you have to sign a consent form to have it done (well, unless you are a Latina woman in Miami- and then they will try to force you into it and do it "by mistake" when you go home to take a shower) So you are stuck on this idea that this is a parental right and one that needs no help from the government. You have some sense of American values.

How would it sit with you if instead of government protection from circumcision we were talking about- if instead we were talking about government mandated circumcision? What if... when my sons were born... I was not given the choice to protect them? What if I was strong-armed into circumcision even though I wanted to protect them from that? What if there was no such thing as informed consent? What if my opinion didn't matter in the face of a medical professional.. you know "Doctor's orders" would you feel outraged about parent's rights then?

What if someone other than a child's parents was forcing circumcision on families who weren't interested in it?

My husband was circumcised in 1964 in a Cincinnati hospital without the consent of his parents. His father was intact. His family was Native American. Circumcision was not a part of their culture and was not something they would ever consider doing to their child. They were horrified when they learned what had happened to their baby in the nursery. If they had a choice, they would have said no... but NO ONE got a choice... and all the boys were circumcised there.

I have met may older women (grandmothers) who told me they were given the impression it was illegal to not circumcise... they did not have a choice.

So this idea that this even is a parental choice- it's no older than two generations old.

What are the most common reasons why people circumcise now?

Because dad is.
Because everyone is.
Because everyone does it.
So he won't be teased.
Because women like it... (when spoken out loud it sounds like, "To prevent UTIs")
Because we wouldn't even consider not doing it...
So he won't remember it.
To avoid needing it later.

Are you seeing a trend?

We are voting in an election with one candidate. And why do we have only one candidate? because two generations ago- before we had a "choice" our collective knowledge of the male body was erased from our social knowledge, turned into a stigma and dismissed as garbage. Now those who stand to profit from circumcising can confidently offer people "choice" because they know that dad is circumcised and is over a barrel... he's going to have to do some deep personal questioning if he is ever going to consider his own long lost foreskin dead in that garbage can- and see it as something of value born, vascular, innervated and healthy sexually functioning part of his son.

Do you know the history of circumcision in your family? Do you have any old folks around you can ask? Find out who was the first person circumcised and how it happened. The answers may surprise you.

[Weightaholic]

Good decision. It's nothing more than cosmetic surgery done to appeal the brain dead religious wankers.

lol. I got negged by illriginalized for this comment, and here's what he left me....

You are a wanker, and apparently a wrinkly loose skinned wanker at that. yuck, no wonder you hate the world.

Oooooh. He mad!

[Weightaholic]

I'd say its an effort to preserve an individual's right to their body by libertarian types.

And were it that, I would fully support all those here who say it should be allowed, on general principles alone. However, it's not about an individuals right per se, it is about their "right" to unnecessarily mutilate their child.

Or are we just as for female genital mutilation as well?

[LennardiVooDoo]

If parents had the choice to cut off their kids earlobes, would you be against a government ban on it?
This whole debate is a joke. Just because people have been doing it for a long time, doesn't mean that mutilating your kids privates could possibly be right in any way. The whole idea of it being unhealthy is a joke. The only ones who think this are the guys who are circumcised and want to somehow justify not having part of their dick.
If somebody wants to get circumcised, let them do it when they're old enough for the decision, don't leave it up to parents who will only do it because of social/religious stigmas.

[Vagitarian]

This is again, anecdotal - but the maternity ward nurses and pediatricians told us the boys who don't get circ'd end up with lots of urinary infections and complications from that, which is a reason why lots of parents get their male infants circ'd.

Take it as you will. Not a definitive study of course.

Of course they tell you that. They make money on every circ they do, not to mention the cash they get from selling foreskin to cosmetic companies.

Bingo.

God & Science.. isn't it beautiful?

Ya... I don't listen to peons who make such ludicrous claims.. sorry. God commands us to circumcise the males and there's scientific reasons why we should. That doesn't seem like a contradiction.. now does it?

You are one of the dumbest people on this forum.

ITT: Men are overly concerned with little boy penises.

Worry about your own junk, or that of your OWN child. Otherwise, Get over it !

I am getting sick of your ignorance-filled posts, you old stupid ****.

Educate yourself before speaking on a subject which you have no knowledge.

[XZV]

Serious question for cut brahs how the fuk do you walk around with it touching your boxers? its like torture without the foreskin

[iSimplyDontLose]

To the people who are anti-circumcision, why does it bother you so much?

Nobody in this topic who was circumcised seems to have a problem with it, so why do you?

There are far bigger issues in the world today

[iSimplyDontLose]

Serious question for cut brahs how the fuk do you walk around with it touching your boxers? its like torture without the foreskin

Don't feel a thing.

[XZV]

Don't feel a thing.

Wow really? that sucks man

[Godfrd824]

Serious question for cut brahs how the fuk do you walk around with it touching your boxers? its like torture without the foreskin

That's another thing with being uncircumcised, way too sensitive.

[Weightaholic]

You are one of the dumbest people on this forum.

Only "one of"?

[Weightaholic]

To the people who are anti-circumcision, why does it bother you so much?

Nobody in this topic who was circumcised seems to have a problem with it, so why do you?

There are far bigger issues in the world today

I have nothing against circumcision. I do, however, have issues with people mutilating their children as a blood sacrifice to their god.

If you want to do it as an adult... go for it.

[Rambo26]

Glad I'm not the only one in favour of the prohibition!

[Rune]

That's another thing with being uncircumcised, way too sensitive.

never been an issue... feelsfukingoodman

ITT everybody wants other mens dicks to be just like theirs... no homo?

seriously... cut guys, you have no idea about the differences, just like I never will... you like it, fine... but running your mouths like you've got a world of experience with uncircumcised is lolable.

[primetime32]

All the anti-circumcision people act as if parents are doing to children something that the children will regret later on when in fact it is the exact opposite.

I am jewish and all of my friends are circumsized and none of us are even remotely resent our parents for doing it.

In fact, as a jew the rules require me to be circumsized and if my parents hadn't done it to me when i was a newborn, i would have had to do it later in life and would have been upset that they didn't do it when i was a newborn.

So the theory that parents are doing something that their children will later regret is pure nonsense. I have never met a fellow jew that was circumsized and now regrets it.

[Lifting_Taurus]

ITT... A lot of people who are into Big Gov't....

Seriously... it's a parents choice, religoius or not (my boys are and I'm not religious)... Why the f*ck should the gov't have any say so what-so-ever????

[NCK MIZ]

Don't agree with this. But San Fran can do whatever they would like. I think it would become a much larger issue if it went national.

[Lifting_Taurus]

I want every boy in the world to be left alone and allowed to have a normal set of reproductive organs. If that's an obscenity, then I guess I'm just a really vulgar guy.

You really shouldn't concern yourself so much with the genitalia of everyone else.

I couldn't give two shyts about what my neighbors son has done to his... He isn't my kid...

Why are you so interested?

[Tiffany Wantsmore]

You really shouldn't concern yourself so much with the genitalia of everyone else.

I couldn't give two shyts about what my neighbors son has done to his... He isn't my kid...

Why are you so interested?

So if you witnessed your neighbour cutting off his son's ear, it wouldn't bother you? You wouldn't report it? Do you think he has the right to do that to his son?

[Plainandtall]

So the theory that parents are doing something that their children will later regret is pure nonsense. I have never met a fellow jew that was circumsized and now regrets it.

There are many Jewish men who resent being circumcised/or support Genital Integrity. In the intactivist community a disproportionate number of the men (in regards to the portion of the general population of America) are Jewish. Some of the most outspoken voices (many of them authors) for genital integrity are Jewish men:

Dean Edell
Paul Fleiss
Ronald Goldman
Norm Cohen
Leonard Glick
Edward Wallerstein
Howard Stern