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  1. #31
    H = T + V mslman71's Avatar
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    Interesting posts Jerry & Oz. I'm curious if EMG activity is the only dependent variable for predicting muscle development from a given movement and if that function is single valued. That is, can equal levels of EMG activity correspond to different degrees of growth under different conditions? Obviously, activity wouldn't be used as the metric were there a better one available or reason to believe that it wasn't as least strongly correlated to strength/growth gains.
    2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

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  2. #32
    Master Yourself First NYkarate's Avatar
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    EMG is pretty much the gold standard used to evaluate muscle activation. How that muscle responds to the stimulation is up to your rest, diet and obviously the effectiveness of the training volume imposed upon it. That said, the article and studies make it clear that changing foot position on squats is not going to shift the ratio of stimulation between the vastus medialus and vastus lateralus and as a result will not do anything to change how the muscle responds.
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  3. #33
    Registered User Most Muscular's Avatar
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    squatting with your feet together (from what I undestand) will develop your outside sweep more. If you want to improve your teardrop muscle try placing your feet lower on the leg press. However, be aware that this will also put a lot more pressure on your knees but you will feel it in the tear drop area also (close to the knees)

    nuff said...
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by Most Muscular View Post
    squatting with your feet together (from what I undestand) will develop your outside sweep more. If you want to improve your teardrop muscle try placing your feet lower on the leg press. However, be aware that this will also put a lot more pressure on your knees but you will feel it in the tear drop area also (close to the knees)

    nuff said...
    True but I squat with a barbell,I leaned a long time ago my legs do not respond good to leg press machines for some stupid reason I have yet to figure out.
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  5. #35
    H = T + V mslman71's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NYkarate View Post
    EMG is pretty much the gold standard used to evaluate muscle activation. How that muscle responds to the stimulation is up to your rest, diet and obviously the effectiveness of the training volume imposed upon it. That said, the article and studies make it clear that changing foot position on squats is not going to shift the ratio of stimulation between the vastus medialus and vastus lateralus and as a result will not do anything to change how the muscle responds.
    Right, that I understand and appreciate. In this case I was assuming diet, rest, and other external factors were held constant. Anyway, I'm not being argumentative about any of it or have any alternate theories, only asking the obvious questions (to which I should go research rather than openly pontificate here).
    2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

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  6. #36
    Master Yourself First NYkarate's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    Right, that I understand and appreciate. In this case I was assuming diet, rest, and other external factors were held constant. Anyway, I'm not being argumentative about any of it or have any alternate theories, only asking the obvious questions (to which I should go research rather than openly pontificate here).
    Never thought you were being argumentative. I find such back and forth point and counterpoint discussions a great way to learn. If there is some flaw in EMG research, it would be great to find out. If we have learned anything, "science" is never beyond questioning. Please share what you find.
    Last edited by NYkarate; 05-01-2011 at 10:58 AM.
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  7. #37
    Registered User JerryB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _OZ_ View Post
    Some interesting reading:

    The effect of stance width on the electromyographical activity of eight superficial thigh muscles during back squat with different bar loads.

    Many strength trainers believe that varying the stance width during the back squat can target specific muscles of the thigh. The aim of the present work was to test this theory measuring the activation of 8 thigh muscles while performing back squats at 3 stance widths and with 3 different bar loads. Six experienced lifters performed 3 sets of 10 repetitions of squats, each one with a different stance width, using 3 resistances: no load, 30% of 1-repetition maximum (1RM), and 70% 1RM. Sets were separated by 6 minutes of rest. Electromyographic (EMG) surface electrodes were placed on the vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, rectus femoris, semitendinosus, biceps femoris, gluteus maximus, gluteus medium, and adductor maior. Analysis of variance and Scheffè post hoc tests indicated a significant difference in EMG activity only for the gluteus maximus; in particular, there was a higher electrical activity of this muscle when back squats were performed at the maximum stance widths at 0 and 70% 1RM. There were no significant differences concerning the EMG activity of the other analyzed muscles. These findings suggest that a large width is necessary for a greater activation of the gluteus maximus during back squats.

    Source: J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Jan;23(1):246-50. Department of Human Anatomy and Physiology, Section of Physiology, University of Padova, Padova, Italy. antonio.paoli@unipd.it PMID: 19130646 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
    Thanks for the study

    I have an earlier study with the same conclusions. The variations in the width of the stance in squatting had no significant differential impact between the vastus lateralis and the vastus medialis.

    The following are the IEMG charts from that earlier study.








    Source:
    Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise: Volume 31(3) March 1999 pp 428-436
    Stance width and bar load effects on leg muscle activity during the parallel squat
    McCAW, STEVEN T.; MELROSE, DONALD R.
    Department of Health, Physical Education and Recreation, Illinois State University, Normal, IL 61790


    IEMG abbreviation for integrated electomyography
    How can you visualize the training of a muscle if you don't know its structure?
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  8. #38
    Master Yourself First NYkarate's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing. After reading all this, I would be shocked to find out that changing stances for squats to develop outer Vs inner thigh was anything but broscience.
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  9. #39
    Gettin' back up again Rowyn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by styken View Post
    Haha, I have quite the *Steve* neg collection. I think for a while he negged me everytime he was off spread.
    Oh, he takes negs VERY seriously, lol. And he makes sure to neg people who stand up to him on a regular basis. If you ask me, I often consider *EGOMANIAC* to be trollish himself.

    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    Interesting posts Jerry & Oz.
    And when left to itself, the thread became informative, versus deteriorating into various and rude gifs

    Go mess with BH, for crippesake, he starts threads about his dog that go nowhere
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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by NYkarate View Post
    Thanks for sharing. After reading all this, I would be shocked to find out that changing stances for squats to develop outer Vs inner thigh was anything but broscience.
    You are welcome.

    That's two different studies about ten years apart with the same conclusions.
    How can you visualize the training of a muscle if you don't know its structure?
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    Originally Posted by JerryB View Post
    You are welcome.

    That's two different studies about ten years apart with the same conclusions.
    That is good enough for me. I will not be doing squats with my feet together. I wasn't before, and I won't start now.
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  12. #42
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    why so serious

    Originally Posted by Rowyn View Post
    Oh, he takes negs VERY seriously, lol. And he makes sure to neg people who stand up to him on a regular basis. If you ask me, I often consider *EGOMANIAC* to be trollish himself.

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  13. #43
    H = T + V mslman71's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by Rowyn View Post
    And when left to itself, the thread became informative, versus deteriorating into various and rude gifs

    Go mess with BH, for crippesake, he starts threads about his dog that go nowhere
    I was being dead serious. The posts were interesting and the first time I'd seen this discussed at that level.

    I squat in a leg position that puts the least amount of stress on my hips & knees for my mechanics so it's nice to know that I'm not missing out by not doing it some other way!
    2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

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    re: also big lulz at your neg attempt , Rep Power: 0

    bet you have no idea how funny that sounds. over 35. sound like a child.
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    Master Yourself First NYkarate's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    I was being dead serious. The posts were interesting and the first time I'd seen this discussed at that level.

    I squat in a leg position that puts the least amount of stress on my hips & knees for my mechanics so it's nice to know that I'm not missing out by not doing it some other way!
    IMHO, The more technical the discusion the better for this forum.
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  16. #46
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    Ok, I've always been of the mindset that I prefer anecdotal evidence to "medical research" conducted by non-lifters. Meaning, if I want an answer to a lifting question, I'd seek the opinion of the experienced and respected lifter, rather than a biologist or physiologist. That said, I did a little research to see what a squatting expert has to say.

    When I think of squats, I think of Fred Hatfield. So I looked for his thoughts on the subject of foot placement, and this is what I found:

    http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge...y-i-know-squat



    New Myth #5: Narrow stance for the vastus lateralis sweep.

    While the inner and outer quads are activated via separate neural input, they function as a single unit for most intents because 1) the origin points of 3 of the quads are so close together, 2) they share a common insertion and 3) the quads span such a long bone. There may be a bit of differentiation possible through foot placement, but not so much that overall size takes a back seat to whatever meager shape changes you can effect.

    Get big, and hope that the good Lord, in his infinite wisdom, gave you the genes necessary to have that pleasing "sweep" bodybuilders favor.
    So, I'm changing my thinking to go along with the consensus here. I will consider quad mass the way I have learned to understand pec mass. You can't emphasize inner and outer, and upper and lower are only negligibly different. Upper and lower pecs have the same insertions, just like the quads have the same insertion. And the only way to add the details is to add overall mass.
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    Originally Posted by IronCharles View Post

    Great article IC. I found this (I had to read the whole thing because it was interesting). I never knew Mr. Hatfield was such a sissy. From the article VV

    "The Manta Ray™ is a shoulder girdle support manufactured from indestructible hi-tech molded plastic. It clips to a straight bar and completely eliminates the discomfort of the 1” round bar pressing on your 7th cervical vertebra, or the sharp knurling ripping your flesh. I personally LOVE this thing, and if I don’t have a Safety Squat Bar™ (see below) to use, I ALWAYS have my Manta Ray™. In fact, it is a device I instruct all ISSA-certified personal fitness trainers to use for their clients. My belief is that ANYTHING that makes squats more comfortable is great because a perennial problem with squatting has always been that people just don’t like them! They’re uncomfortable to newcomers and ironheads alike! The Manta Ray™ solves this problem exquisitely.""
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  18. #48
    not quite... domesticated justboo2u's Avatar
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    I may be

    fueling the 'brofire' here, but...

    I notice that both 'scientific' articles (at least the parts displayed in the thread) mention really 'obscure' definitions...
    three different widths (that do not say how wide the widths are), and
    'narrow', 'shoulder', 'wide'...

    These are very un-scientific IMO...

    As to the actual subject... I have never had difficulty with separating the individual muscles... then again, I havent exactly been 'designing road maps' either.

    I typically use various methods as well... sometimes leg extenion, often hack squat/leg press, sometimes bar squats...
    and sometimes the juice bar....
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    Lifts things&puts em down styken's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cromshammer View Post
    Ok Man i'm just going to say it like this:

    It's obvious you are a petty person who looks for that one person they can bother and accuse of trolling this board so you can either make then leave or get them banned,and you have probably done it before one here as well as on other boards.

    That's fine but i'm not leaving this board on account of a 38 year old that's acting more immature then a 2 year old.Sorry to burst you're bubble.

    And this will be the last responce you get from me because to me you no longer exist and are therefore only aproblem to you're self and to those who you can bother!Byes
    Originally Posted by HDHC10 View Post
    re: also big lulz at your neg attempt , Rep Power: 0

    bet you have no idea how funny that sounds. over 35. sound like a child.
    Originally Posted by Rowyn View Post
    Oh, he takes negs VERY seriously, lol. And he makes sure to neg people who stand up to him on a regular basis. If you ask me, I often consider *EGOMANIAC* to be trollish himself.
    Haha, I see you've met the biggest dickbag on the internet.
    I bet he made you red too. Repped to try to help against the biggest cancer on this board.

    Hey *Steve*, you jackass, why don't you keep your antics to 035 misc, instead of trying to derail serious conversations. Why the mods don't keep a short leash on you I will never understand.
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  20. #50
    Registered User JerryB's Avatar
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    I consider evidence from exercise physiologists to have great value. I take this position because they are educated in the structure and actions of the muscular system. They have the instruments to test and measure the effects of an exercise. Their methods of testing and measurement may be questionable at times.

    I also consider the comments and suggestions from experienced bodybuilders in developing my routines. But their advice can range from the equivalence of a trained factory mechanic repairing your car to that of a shade tree mechanic.

    My approach to training is to include understanding kinesiology, exercise physiology, the muscular system and nutrition to the best of my ability. This way I can better judge the value of information from both sources without any bias for one or the other.
    Last edited by JerryB; 05-02-2011 at 10:32 AM.
    How can you visualize the training of a muscle if you don't know its structure?
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    i have always used a fairly narrow stance squatting ( feel more comfortable) and almost feet together when on the smith . years of doing this has given me alot of shape size and definition especialy to my outer thigh sweep considering i had legs like spaghetti when i started.
    my teardrop i have gained via the leg extention ... totally isolates it but its a killer on your knees later on in your life
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  22. #52
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    Originally Posted by justboo2u View Post
    fueling the 'brofire' here, but...

    I notice that both 'scientific' articles (at least the parts displayed in the thread) mention really 'obscure' definitions...
    three different widths (that do not say how wide the widths are), and
    'narrow', 'shoulder', 'wide'...

    These are very un-scientific IMO...

    To response to your post regarding the meaning of ‘narrow’ and ‘wide’ the following is from the study. I going to assume you understand what ‘shoulder’ meant.

    Purpose: Altering foot stance is often prescribed as a method of isolating muscles during the
    parallel squat. The purpose of this study was to compare activity in six muscles crossing the
    hip and/or knee joints when the parallel squat is performed with different stances and bar loads.
    Methods: Nine male lifters served as subjects. Within 7 d of determining 1RM on the squat
    with shoulder width stance, surface EMG data were collected (800 Hz) from the rectus femoris,
    vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, adductor longus, gluteus maximus, and biceps femoris while
    subjects completed five nonconsecutive reps of the squat using shoulder width, narrow (75%
    shoulder width), and wide (140% shoulder width)
    stances with low and high loads (60% and
    75% 1RM, respectively). Rep time was controlled. A goniometer on the right knee was used to
    identify descent and ascent phases. Integrated EMG values were calculated for each muscle
    during phases of each rep, and the 5-rep means for each subject were used in a repeated
    measures ANOVA (phase × load × stance, alpha= 0.05).


    Source:
    Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise: Volume 31(3) March 1999 pp 428-436
    Stance width and bar load effects on leg muscle activity during the parallel squat
    McCAW, STEVEN T.; MELROSE, DONALD R.
    How can you visualize the training of a muscle if you don't know its structure?
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  23. #53
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    Originally Posted by justboo2u View Post
    As to the actual subject... I have never had difficulty with separating the individual muscles... then again, I havent exactly been 'designing road maps' either.

    I typically use various methods as well... sometimes leg extenion, often hack squat/leg press, sometimes bar squats...
    and sometimes the juice bar....
    I would like to know how you are able to separately work the individual quadriceps muscles. I’m interested because they function as a unit except when one goes into a muscle cramp or spasm.



    Last edited by JerryB; 05-02-2011 at 10:31 AM.
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    Originally Posted by styken View Post
    Haha, I see you've met the biggest dickbag on the internet.
    I bet he made you red too. Repped to try to help against the biggest cancer on this board.

    Hey *Steve*, you jackass, why don't you keep your antics to 035 misc, instead of trying to derail serious conversations. Why the mods don't keep a short leash on you I will never understand.


    Thanks.

    yeh he's something..just don't have an adequate word for him.
    If I was a mod he'd have 3 warnings then bam he'd be banned.
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    Talking about teardrop

    Originally Posted by sexpak View Post
    my teardrop i have gained via the leg extention ... totally isolates it but its a killer on your knees later on in your life
    I really enjoy leg extensions, but from day one was warned that these could damage my knees...If I am using this exercise in my leg routine, wouldn't it just strengthen the overall knee? Or is it wearing out the joint? Or is it just dangerous to push yourself too hard with this exercise?

    Thanx in advance
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  26. #56
    Registered User JerryB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MecGen View Post
    I really enjoy leg extensions, but from day one was warned that these could damage my knees...If I am using this exercise in my leg routine, wouldn't it just strengthen the overall knee? Or is it wearing out the joint? Or is it just dangerous to push yourself too hard with this exercise?

    Thanx in advance
    The following is from Ironman Magazine:

    Leg Extensions vs. Squats
    Know what your knees need


    January 13, 2009 by Joseph M. Horrigan, D.C. in Injury & Prevention, Legs, Training


    There are still myths surrounding so-called healthful exercises for the knees. Fortunately, the myths aren’t as strong as they used to be. Many gym veterans will recall how doctors and other health-care providers maligned squats for decades. Squats were supposed to be bad for the knees. Leg extensions were supposed to be good for the knees. That led to the use of leg extension machines for rehabilitating knee injuries, and trainees in popular gyms knocked out set after set of heavy leg extensions. Olympic weightlifters, powerlifters, track and field athletes, football players and hardcore trainees, however, knew that wasn’t true and kept performing squats with very few problems.

    The health-care professionals who recommended leg extensions and squats were overwhelmingly untrained individuals who didn’t have any scientific evidence to support their ideas. It would be very difficult to push ideas like that today.

    When you perform a leg extension, the major lower-leg bone, the tibia, slides forward. That stretches an important ligament in the knee, the anterior cruciate ligament, or ACL. We can only wonder how many athletes were told to perform leg extensions during rehab without any idea that it might be bad for their injured ligament. Various rehab leg extension machines were isokinetic, so they allowed only concentric, or positive, knee extension, or flexion. They often had the athlete perform leg or knee extensions at maximum speed and force. Eventually, people recognized the need for an anti-shear device to reduce the stress on the ACL.

    Biomechanics research on the knee has demonstrated that during the squat and leg press, the tibia slides backward. That reduces the stress on the ACL.

    Another problem with the leg extension is that it maximally stresses the cartilage on the back of the patella, a.k.a. kneecap, at its thinnest area. The cartilage is not uniform in thickness. It’s thinnest at the top and bottom of the patella and thickest near the middle. Maximal pressure at the thinnest part of the cartilage can damage or crack it.

    Squats are often called “physiologic flexion” by biomechanists. When you perform a squat, the maximal stress lines up with the thickest area of cartilage on the patella. Human beings were clearly designed to do that.

    Much research is taking place that involves training in one way or another. At one time there was very little research, and what there was was mostly conducted by doctors who didn’t like strength training. Now, at last, the research has evolved. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research was accepted into Medline a few years ago. Other journals and researchers have explored training and clinical problems. I’ve quoted Frank G. Shellock, Ph.D., in this column before. Shellock has published more than 200 papers, has a doctorate in physiology, is a fellow of the American College of Sports Medicine and has competed as a powerlifter.

    Shellock and his co-researchers investigated leg extensions and one-leg squats in patients who had previously suffered dislocated patellas. During leg extensions, patellar displacement was more pronounced than during one-leg squats. Furthermore, the researchers found that during leg extensions, the patella rotated on the femur—thigh bone—while the one-leg squat could be characterized as the femur rotating underneath the patella. That difference may account for the problems with leg extensions.


    If you like to perform a set or two of very light leg extensions as part of your warmup on leg day, it’s not a problem. You don’t use enough weight to damage the cartilage. Perform them gently. I don’t advise that you add more weight or more sets or that you perform them explosively. IM



    Powers, C.M., Shellock, F.G., et al. (2003). Patellofemoral kinematics during weight-bearing and non-weight-bearing knee extension in persons with lateral subluxation of the patella: a preliminary study. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 33(11):677-85.

    Editor’s note: Visit www.SoftTissueCenter.com for reprints of Horrigan’s Sportsmedicine columns that have appeared in IRON MAN. You can order the books, Strength, Conditioning and Injury Prevention for Hockey by Joseph Horrigan, D.C., and E.J. “Doc” Kreis, D.A., and the 7-Minute Rotator Cuff Solution by Horrigan and Jerry Robinson from Home Gym Warehouse, (800) 447-0008 or at www.Home-Gym.com.













    http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/site/...ons-vs-squats/
    Last edited by JerryB; 05-02-2011 at 01:56 PM.
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    Originally Posted by MecGen View Post
    I really enjoy leg extensions, but from day one was warned that these could damage my knees...If I am using this exercise in my leg routine, wouldn't it just strengthen the overall knee? Or is it wearing out the joint? Or is it just dangerous to push yourself too hard with this exercise?

    Thanx in advance
    I gave them up way back as a teen because I didn't like the stress they put on my knees.
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    Thanks guys
    Repped

    Regards
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    Originally Posted by JerryB View Post
    The following is from Ironman Magazine:

    Leg Extensions vs. Squats
    Know what your knees need

    ...
    Good get. I've had some knee 'discomfort' that I've attributed to a return to squatting but I've also ramped up the weight & volume in leg extensions concurrently. I think I'll back off the weight and see if the pain (under the patella) subsides. Thanks for posting this.
    2 + 2 = 5 (for extremely large values of 2)

    Try SCE to AUX
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    Talking lol

    Originally Posted by Rowyn View Post
    *STEVE* likes to make it his mission to degrade people, especially newcomer males to the Ov35 . Just put him on ignore

    I have sometimes used this squat techique to focus on quads but on the Smith or hack machines as a supplement to my regular squat routine. Don't think I could perform it as if it were a regular back squat tho.
    you know what i dont get. It is that steve is talking a bunch of **** on a forum that is discussing leg muscle improvement. So you know i do what i do best and check **** out before i say anything. Well if you look at steves pictures you will undoubtedly understand why it is i am so confused, because he has no legs he is your typical gym rat who is only worried about what the ladies see under his shirts, arm and chest not to be a dick or anything i just thought it was amusing.

    I found this forum quit helpful thanks to everyone who provided helpful information.
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