Unclear about carbs

[BrownNYellow]

I feel like I'm getting too many carbs daily. I get around 300, and that seems really high to me. Is low-carbs good for weight loss, or do they even matter at all?

[Ninetysix]

IT makes you retain water and it fills your glycogen stores. It does not matter much when it comes to fat loss assuming you can fit that much in your macros. Any extra calories from protein, carbs, fats turns into fat not just carbs alone.

[SpencerF]

Thought carbs were the easiest to convert to fat

[kusok]

Thought carbs were the easiest to convert to fat

haha, no, not really.

Excess anything will cause fat gain all the same.

[kusok]

I feel like I'm getting too many carbs daily. I get around 300, and that seems really high to me. Is low-carbs good for weight loss, or do they even matter at all?

300 grams carbs is not many carbs. That is actually moderate for a 200 lbs guy.

[HunterCML]

I feel like I'm getting too many carbs daily. I get around 300, and that seems really high to me. Is low-carbs good for weight loss, or do they even matter at all?

It could be too high. Aim for your protein and fat macronutrient daily allowance that you can determine by reading the nutrition stickies. Then figure out your total caloric need for the day and throw in carbs to fill in what's left.

Say you have 400 cals left. Since 1g of carbs = 4 calories; that equals 100g carbs.

^ that's only a rough example by the way.

[Brjohn]

Thought carbs were the easiest to convert to fat

simple carbs yes.... Fiber is one of the complex carbs that cannot be broken down and is passed out of the body...

[Brjohn]

I feel like I'm getting too many carbs daily. I get around 300, and that seems really high to me. Is low-carbs good for weight loss, or do they even matter at all?

Based on your activity level is how carbs should be eaten and applied in your macros. Your body uses carbs as the primary source of fuel.... complex carbs should be eaten throughout the day and in excess of protein it you are a active person and train frequently.

Simple carbs should be avoided like the plague and only ingested post workout as a rule of thumb as a transport for protein into the system for recovery.

Too low Low carbs = muscle wasting if you reduce carbs below the point that your body needs them for fuel.... then the body feeds on protein

[kusok]

simple carbs yes....

no.

[Cape1]

I'm going to take a shot at clearing up some stuff here. I know not everyone will agree with me and that's ok - I don't need anyones approval..

#1) Once Protein is adequate, it makes Exactly ZERO sense to add more of it. No, more Protein will not equal more Protein Synth; adding more protein will not accelerate fat loss; and adding more Protein will not make you more Anabolic.

Retarded is the notion of increasing a less than ideal fuel source (protein) at the expense of an ideal fuel source (Carbs). The caloric space should be filled with carbs.

#2) You don't need as much protein as you think. 1 gram of protein per pound of raw body weight is MORE than enough and is likely a significan over-shoot. I tell AAS users to go about 1- 1.5 grams of body weight; non AAS users are probably even good at 1g per pound of LEAN Weight. Carbs also spare protein.

#3) You don't need to avoid "simple carbs" like the plague. If you're talking Twinkies, Cupcakes and Candy, than, OK. I get it. However, lower fiber breads, Rice, white potatoes are all good food choices and have many benefits. They should not represent your whole carb intake obviously but a couple of meals with Higher GI and a couple with lower GI is not a bad game plan. I actually know a couple of competitors who eat white potatoes and white rice for most of their meals.

#4) If you're Diabetic, disregard #3 and first talk to your Doc before designing a diet plan.

#5) Carbs do not make you fat any quicker than Protein or Fat will.

In closing, for a guy the OPS size, 200 grams of carbs is probably on the low side. It will suffice but, again, unless the total calories are sufficient without increasing the other macros, it's probably a less than ideal game plan.

[kusok]

I'm going to take a shot at clearing up some stuff here. I know not everyone will agree with me and that's ok - I don't need anyones approval..

#1) Once Protein is adequate, it makes Exactly ZERO sense to add more of it. No, more Protein will not equal more Protein Synth; adding more protein will not accelerate fat loss; and adding more Protein will not make you more Anabolic.

Retarded is the notion of increasing a less than ideal fuel source (protein) at the expense of an ideal fuel source (Carbs). The caloric space should be filled with carbs.

#2) You don't need as much protein as you think. 1 gram of protein per pound of raw body weight is MORE than enough and is likely a significan over-shoot. I tell AAS users to go about 1- 1.5 grams of body weight; non AAS users are probably even good at 1g per pound of LEAN Weight. Carbs also spare protein.

#3) You don't need to avoid "simple carbs" like the plague. If you're talking Twinkies, Cupcakes and Candy, than, OK. I get it. However, lower fiber breads, Rice, white potatoes are all good food choices and have many benefits. They should not represent your whole carb intake obviously but a couple of meals with Higher GI and a couple with lower GI is not a bad game plan. I actually know a couple of competitors who eat white potatoes and white rice for most of their meals.

#4) If you're Diabetic, disregard #3 and first talk to your Doc before designing a diet plan.

#5) Carbs do not make you fat any quicker than Protein or Fat will.

In closing, for a guy the OPS size, 200 grams of carbs is probably on the low side. It will suffice but, again, unless the total calories are sufficient without increasing the other macros, it's probably a less than ideal game plan.

haha, but how do you know how much protein one needs? In theory I don't need more than 185 grams or so, in reality when on 185 grams I experience strength loss, and during caloric deficit I'm also hungry 24/7.
But when I bump it to 300 grams hunger goes away, and strength comes on (calories stay same)

And how do we know how many carbs we need exactly? Some people have worse insulin sensitivity than others, and carb requirements differ rather dramatically.


GI is apparently a useless index under all reasonable scenarios, even for diabetics.

[Cruz2030]

300 grams carbs is not many carbs. That is actually moderate for a 200 lbs guy.

? I thought I was going waaaay overboard on the days I hit 180 carbs

[msm00b]

simple carbs yes...

No.

#1) Once Protein is adequate, it makes Exactly ZERO sense to add more of it. No, more Protein will not equal more Protein Synth; adding more protein will not accelerate fat loss; and adding more Protein will not make you more Anabolic.

Retarded is the notion of increasing a less than ideal fuel source (protein) at the expense of an ideal fuel source (Carbs). The caloric space should be filled with carbs.

#2) You don't need as much protein as you think. 1 gram of protein per pound of raw body weight is MORE than enough and is likely a significan over-shoot. I tell AAS users to go about 1- 1.5 grams of body weight; non AAS users are probably even good at 1g per pound of LEAN Weight. Carbs also spare protein.

#3) You don't need to avoid "simple carbs" like the plague. If you're talking Twinkies, Cupcakes and Candy, than, OK. I get it. However, lower fiber breads, Rice, white potatoes are all good food choices and have many benefits. They should not represent your whole carb intake obviously but a couple of meals with Higher GI and a couple with lower GI is not a bad game plan. I actually know a couple of competitors who eat white potatoes and white rice for most of their meals.

#4) If you're Diabetic, disregard #3 and first talk to your Doc before designing a diet plan.

#5) Carbs do not make you fat any quicker than Protein or Fat will.

In closing, for a guy the OPS size, 200 grams of carbs is probably on the low side. It will suffice but, again, unless the total calories are sufficient without increasing the other macros, it's probably a less than ideal game plan.

^ That.

The type of carbs you eat can impact the rate your blood glucose and insulin spikes (why hullo there glycemic index), but won't really impact net fat gain all that much. Most people would be shocked to find out that a lot of the "healthy" carbs and whole grain breads out there will actually spike your insulin just as fast as an equivalent volume of calories worth of table sugar.

A carb is a carb and doesn't matter all that much for fat gain/loss be it a twinkie, a jolly rancher, or whole wheat pasta. Perhaps an oversimplification ... but it's not really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[Cape1]

haha, but how do you know how much protein one needs? In theory I don't need more than 185 grams or so, in reality when on 185 grams I experience strength loss, and during caloric deficit I'm also hungry 24/7.
But when I bump it to 300 grams hunger goes away, and strength comes on (calories stay same)

And how do we know how many carbs we need exactly? Some people have worse insulin sensitivity than others, and carb requirements differ rather dramatically.


GI is apparently a useless index under all reasonable scenarios, even for diabetics.

Well, I clearly don't know how many grams of protein each individual on the planet needs. If I did, that would be impressive! I don't know where you are on the spectrum of bodybuilding/athletics either. If you are experienced with tight control diet and training; to the point where you can notice tiny little variables, you got me. I don't know what to say except for the fact that I've never read a reputable study ANYWHERE that suggests' two grams of protein per pound of BodyWeight even for AAS users. My experience personally is that I do best with about 1g per pound of body weight, ,maybe a shade more when I am using supplementation that increases protein synthesis.

Here's the thing though: Most guys see changes in strength or size and automatically attribute those changes to the biggest variable in a long list of things that changed. I'm not saying that's you so don't take offense. I just find it hard to beleive that You need 2g per pound unless you're on a **** load of Gear and other goodies. Even then.....

As for Carbs, Insulin sensativity to blood glucose is way over-rated around here. Most "healthy" people do not have wild variations in Insulin response. IN most cases where people have a healthy Endocrine system, a balanced diet, rich in carbs is just dandy. Don't take my word for it. This statement came from my Endocrinologist who is very widely respected here in Massachusetts (a place where being respected in this field is not a slam dunk). I don't know man, maybe she's full of Sh*t. I don't know..I beleive her though and so don't a couple of former Professional Athletes who are also her patients.

Either way, if you're interested in such things, there are coutless articles on this topic in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism (JCEM). Check it out. It's actually a very good resource for things 'hormonal'.

Bottom line: when I hear people on bb.com say, "I'm carb sensative"....my little translator in my brain changes the statement to "I'm fat, my diet sucks, I don't know how to move things the right way, so for now i've decided Carbs are to blame".

GI measures effects on Blood Sugar and not Insulin response to blood sugar so I agree, GI is useless as a measuring stick of carb quality and useless for determining insulin response in healthy people. As for it's usefullness relating to Diabetic folks, I'll have to accept what you're saying for now because I don't know. I will only say that if someone is Diabetic, I'm not sure I would totally ignore a measurement related to blood glucose response.

[Cape1]

No.



^ That.

The type of carbs you eat can impact the rate your blood glucose and insulin spikes (why hullo there glycemic index), but won't really impact net fat gain all that much. Most people would be shocked to find out that a lot of the "healthy" carbs and whole grain breads out there will actually spike your insulin just as fast as an equivalent volume of calories worth of table sugar.

A carb is a carb and doesn't matter all that much for fat gain/loss be it a twinkie, a jolly rancher, or whole wheat pasta. Perhaps an oversimplification ... but it's not really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

...and just to add to that, the reaction time is not hugely different between the different carb sources. Meaning, whole wheat pasta, while not as quick to spike blood glucose as a piece of Wonder Bread, is still pretty damn quick!!!

[kusok]

Well, I clearly don't know how many grams of protein each individual on the planet needs. If I did, that would be impressive! I don't know where you are on the spectrum of bodybuilding/athletics either. If you are experienced with tight control diet and training; to the point where you can notice tiny little variables, you got me. I don't know what to say except for the fact that I've never read a reputable study ANYWHERE that suggests' two grams of protein per pound of BodyWeight even for AAS users. My experience personally is that I do best with about 1g per pound of body weight, ,maybe a shade more when I am using supplementation that increases protein synthesis.

Here's the thing though: Most guys see changes in strength or size and automatically attribute those changes to the biggest variable in a long list of things that changed. I'm not saying that's you so don't take offense. I just find it hard to beleive that You need 2g per pound unless you're on a **** load of Gear and other goodies. Even then.....

As for Carbs, Insulin sensativity to blood glucose is way over-rated around here. Most "healthy" people do not have wild variations in Insulin response. IN most cases where people have a healthy Endocrine system, a balanced diet, rich in carbs is just dandy. Don't take my word for it. This statement came from my Endocrinologist who is very widely respected here in Massachusetts (a place where being respected in this field is not a slam dunk). I don't know man, maybe she's full of Sh*t. I don't know..I beleive her though and so don't a couple of former Professional Athletes who are also her patients.

Either way, if you're interested in such things, there are coutless articles on this topic in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism (JCEM). Check it out. It's actually a very good resource for things 'hormonal'.

Bottom line: when I hear people on bb.com say, "I'm carb sensative"....my little translator in my brain changes the statement to "I'm fat, my diet sucks, I don't know how to move things the right way, so for now i've decided Carbs are to blame".

GI measures effects on Blood Sugar and not Insulin response to blood sugar so I agree, GI is useless as a measuring stick of carb quality and useless for determining insulin response in healthy people. As for it's usefullness relating to Diabetic folks, I'll have to accept what you're saying for now because I don't know. I will only say that if someone is Diabetic, I'm not sure I would totally ignore a measurement related to blood glucose response.

Nice post ^^^ Educational. Thanks.

By the way, to clarify, my 300 grams protein is a bit under 1.5g/lb (total weight) for me, not 2g/lb. I follow Lyle's and some other top guys recommendation on this.

I think another reason such fairly high protein intake seems to be better for me is because my job is stressful both hormonally and physically. And I don't much care for grains taste so my carb intake is not that high, mostly from fruits and veggies, and I don't do any endurance sports or much cardio, so my carb needs are limited, so then protein and fat intake naturally rise up instead of carbs.

[msm00b]

As far as protein requirements go, I'll just leave it at this: in our ICUs for older children, adolescents, and adults we typically cap out on the amount of IV protein we'll give people requiring TPN (IV feeds) at around 2-2.5gm/kg/day (about 1gm per pound) in our very most catabolic patients. These sick guys and gals will likely be far more catabolic and require more protein pound for pound than the biggest body builders on the most intense workout routines. In our neonatal ICUs they'll push the envelope to 3.5-4gm per kilo (1.5-1.8gm per pound), but these little micro-midgets are experiencing growth above and beyond what an adult could proportionally fathom.

So yeah, when you pair this micro-management approach with contemporary dietician recommendations, most adult male athletes probably only need in the ballpark of 70-80 grams per day. So yeah, if you're eating a gram per pound of lean body mass (not total body weight), you've likely already saturated your body's true need. Any protein intake above and beyond is simply being broken down for calories > a job more ideally suited for the carbohydrate or fat. Remember that in order to convert protein into usable energy you have to recruit your liver ... an organ that's generally pretty busy doing other things. When you also consider that excessive protein intake also increases your renal solute load ... why make organs in your body work overtime when they don't need to in the first place? Cover your minimums and then eat whatever the heck you want. As for me, I typically make sure that any given day I eat at least 100 (still probably much more than my body needs) and then stop thinking about it. I'm sure some days I get well over 200 some days just based on the types of food I decide to eat - but that wasn't because I was being anal and obsessive ... that's cause I like chicken, steak, fish, eggs etc.

I know some people will swear that their bodies recover, grow, etc on higher protein volumes - just know that the power of placebo is very strong indeed and that the most scientific studies we have on the topic really don't show any correlation between higher protein intake and lean mass gains. We have good empiric data that shows better weight loss with higher protein diets, but that's typically because protein is far more satiating than carbs. If you closely regulated calorie intake in protein-heavy vs protein-"adequate" arms of the study I bet you'd find very little real difference in terms of fat loss while dieting.

On the flip side, weight loss diets that have inadequate protein can actually put you at risk for muscle loss along with the fat loss - but this is not a problem your average american has unless they feel some stupid need to crash diet on nothing but iceberg lettuce and prunes. Most americans get a boatload of protein in their diet without thinking twice about it.

...and just to add to that, the reaction time is not hugely different between the different carb sources. Meaning, whole wheat pasta, while not as quick to spike blood glucose as a piece of Wonder Bread, is still pretty damn quick!!!

Indeed.

[Cape1]

Nice post ^^^ Educational. Thanks.

By the way, to clarify, my 300 grams protein is a bit under 1.5g/lb (total weight) for me, not 2g/lb. I follow Lyle's and some other top guys recommendation on this.

I think another reason such fairly high protein intake seems to be better for me is because my job is stressful both hormonally and physically. And I don't much care for grains taste so my carb intake is not that high, mostly from fruits and veggies, and I don't do any endurance sports or much cardio, so my carb needs are limited, so then protein and fat intake naturally rise up instead of carbs.

Hey, a little under 1.5g is allot better than what I thought when I wrote that response - LOL. Either way, if it works, don't fix it. I know Lyles diets and I respect his work. Personally, I would not eat that way because I don't think it is ideal. I'm not against protein. I'm a Protein Pig by my very nature and, if left alone with no regard for diet, I would probably eat Red Meat, Grapes and Apples all day. Probably the Northern Italian in me! My wife actually came home one day a couple of years ago to me walking around the house with a Roast Beef and a Hunting Knife. I kind of took the roast with me everywhere I went! Clearly activity level has allot to do with it too.

As far as protein requirements go, I'll just leave it at this: in our ICUs for older children, adolescents, and adults we typically cap out on the amount of IV protein we'll give people requiring TPN (IV feeds) at around 2-2.5gm/kg/day (about 1gm per pound) in our very most catabolic patients. These sick guys and gals will likely be far more catabolic and require more protein pound for pound than the biggest body builders on the most intense workout routines. In our neonatal ICUs they'll push the envelope to 3.5-4gm per kilo (1.5-1.8gm per pound), but these little micro-midgets are experiencing growth above and beyond what an adult could proportionally fathom.

So yeah, when you pair this micro-management approach with contemporary dietician recommendations, most adult male athletes probably only need in the ballpark of 70-80 grams per day. So yeah, if you're eating a gram per pound of lean body mass (not total body weight), you've likely already saturated your body's true need. Any protein intake above and beyond is simply being broken down for calories > a job more ideally suited for the carbohydrate or fat. Remember that in order to convert protein into usable energy you have to recruit your liver ... an organ that's generally pretty busy doing other things. When you also consider that excessive protein intake also increases your renal solute load ... why make organs in your body work overtime when they don't need to in the first place? Cover your minimums and then eat whatever the heck you want. As for me, I typically make sure that any given day I eat at least 100 (still probably much more than my body needs) and then stop thinking about it. I'm sure some days I get well over 200 some days just based on the types of food I decide to eat - but that wasn't because I was being anal and obsessive ... that's cause I like chicken, steak, fish, eggs etc.

I know some people will swear that their bodies recover, grow, etc on higher protein volumes - just know that the power of placebo is very strong indeed and that the most scientific studies we have on the topic really don't show any correlation between higher protein intake and lean mass gains. We have good empiric data that shows better weight loss with higher protein diets, but that's typically because protein is far more satiating than carbs. If you closely regulated calorie intake in protein-heavy vs protein-"adequate" arms of the study I bet you'd find very little real difference in terms of fat loss while dieting.

On the flip side, weight loss diets that have inadequate protein can actually put you at risk for muscle loss along with the fat loss - but this is not a problem your average american has unless they feel some stupid need to crash diet on nothing but iceberg lettuce and prunes. Most americans get a boatload of protein in their diet without thinking twice about .

Great post as usual MSM. That's interesting stuff about the ICU's. If those under-developed infant only need 3g/kg, that's a fact that bodybuilders need to pay attention to. You could take a bodybuilder on 10iu's of HGH, Insulin, Selected Protein Peptides, and 1500mg per week of Anabolics and the growth potential wouldn't even scratch the surface by comparison to what you're talking about. That baby could double in size in short order and that's all the protein they need. Wow!!

[Brklyns_Finest]

Interesting thread guys, lots of good opinions. I'm actually doing a keto right now, so I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. To be honest, I do it mainly cuz the food is pretty tasty and the every other weekend carbups are pretty fun. But I'll probably be going to a more carby diet soon. I like to switch things up.

most adult male athletes probably only need in the ballpark of 70-80 grams per day. So yeah, if you're eating a gram per pound of lean body mass (not total body weight), you've likely already saturated your body's true need.

Interesting stuff. I've seen you say this before msm00b. I'd really like to think it's true. That would make things a lot simpler lol. Not a huge fan of meat myself. I think I may try the approach you indicated, such as just getting like 100g a day and then forgetting about it.

[msm00b]

Interesting stuff. I've seen you say this before msm00b. I'd really like to think it's true. That would make things a lot simpler lol. Not a huge fan of meat myself. I think I may try the approach you indicated, such as just getting like 100g a day and then forgetting about it.

Don't forget that fresh fruits and vegetables are pretty rich in enzymes ... which are themselves made of amino acids (the basic building blocks of "protein" as we know it). I'm not trying to be pro-vegetarian or anti-meat in the slightest ... I love it. I just think it's funny that there's a huge push towards eating tons and tons of dietary animal protein on this forum when the cows out in the pasture that they're eating for dinner built all that muscle eating pretty much nothing but grass.

We get the building blocks for building muscle from more places than we realize.

[Brklyns_Finest]

Don't forget that fresh fruits and vegetables are pretty rich in enzymes ... which are themselves made of amino acids (the basic building blocks of "protein" as we know it). I'm not trying to be pro-vegetarian or anti-meat in the slightest ... I love it. I just think it's funny that there's a huge push towards eating tons and tons of dietary animal protein on this forum when the cows out in the pasture that they're eating for dinner built all that muscle eating pretty much nothing but grass.

We get the building blocks for building muscle from more places than we realize.

Not to mention stuff like quinoa, which I read somewhere has a more complete amino acid profile than meat (don't quote me on this, but I came across it somewhere). And even though you're not trying to be anti-meat, it's actually pretty helpful for me lol. Not a huge fan of any type of meat. I enjoy a nice burger now and then, but chicken, steak, all that I can do without believe it or not. So it's helpful to know there are alternatives to 150g of protein a day.

[Cape1]

I just think it's funny that there's a huge push towards eating tons and tons of dietary animal protein on this forum when the cows out in the pasture that they're eating for dinner built all that muscle eating pretty much nothing but grass.

We get the building blocks for building muscle from more places than we realize.

LOL! So true. I've been modeling my entire supplementation program based upon what Steers do these days!! It amazes me the kind of feed efficiency they get with these Animals!

......I'm only half joking on this

[alex2363]

Carbohydrates are important if you want to build muscle mass and strength. They are the primary source of energy for activity, especially weight training.

Those who train heavy with maximum intensity deplete their glycogen stores. This leads to a greater need of carbohydrates for fuel and glycogen replenishment. Carbohydrates are also necessary for digestion and utilization of fats and proteins.

How to incorporate carbohydrates in your diet

For overall balance, combine your carbohydrate with a complete protein to form a meal and to spare lean muscle tissue during training. Carbohydrates and protein should compose the bulk of your daily caloric intake, while keeping fat on the lower end.

Choose unprocessed complex carbohydrates, such as oatmeal, brown rice, sweet potatoes, potatoes, etc. These are best since they digest slowly and keep the blood glucose levels stable. To ballpark your carbohydrate intake, (men) multiply your bodyweight by 3, and women use your body weight times 2.

Timing is everything when taking in carbohydrates

It is imperative to consume some complex carbohydrates prior to training to fuel your heavy and intense workout. If you don't have adequate energy, you will not train to your full potential.

There is an anabolic window that occurs within 20 minutes following training, when your muscles are depleted of glycogen. This is the optimal time that your body can utilize nutrients 100%. Not only is it is vital to consume complete protein at this time, but also complex and simple carbohydrates.

This immediate intake of protein and carbohydrates puts you in an anabolic state. The sugar from the simple carbohydrates will shuttle the carbohydrates, protein, and nutrients to the depleted muscles. This post-training nutrient intake also aids in recovery and growth by enhancing tissue repair by delivering amino acids and nutrients to the depleted muscles.

Understand that the body can only tolerate high glycemic simple sugar to its advantage following an intense training session, not all day. While insulin is an anabolic hormone, it is also a fat producing hormone, and when too much insulin is secreted it can't be used properly. A constant supply of too much sugar will result in insulin sensitivity, borderline hypoglycemia, and fat gain.

Be sure your food choices are fresh and natural and you will receive much better results...Hope this helps.

[Brjohn]

no.

yes

[chadlange]

I've heard to stay away from carbs after 8. And in case you were wondering I got the crap negged out of me in the Misc. forums for playful hating.

[kusok]

yes

you can't be serious.

[kusok]

As far as protein requirements go, I'll just leave it at this: in our ICUs for older children, adolescents, and adults we typically cap out on the amount of IV protein we'll give people requiring TPN (IV feeds) at around 2-2.5gm/kg/day (about 1gm per pound) in our very most catabolic patients. These sick guys and gals will likely be far more catabolic and require more protein pound for pound than the biggest body builders on the most intense workout routines. In our neonatal ICUs they'll push the envelope to 3.5-4gm per kilo (1.5-1.8gm per pound), but these little micro-midgets are experiencing growth above and beyond what an adult could proportionally fathom.

So yeah, when you pair this micro-management approach with contemporary dietician recommendations, most adult male athletes probably only need in the ballpark of 70-80 grams per day. So yeah, if you're eating a gram per pound of lean body mass (not total body weight), you've likely already saturated your body's true need. Any protein intake above and beyond is simply being broken down for calories > a job more ideally suited for the carbohydrate or fat. Remember that in order to convert protein into usable energy you have to recruit your liver ... an organ that's generally pretty busy doing other things. When you also consider that excessive protein intake also increases your renal solute load ... why make organs in your body work overtime when they don't need to in the first place? Cover your minimums and then eat whatever the heck you want. As for me, I typically make sure that any given day I eat at least 100 (still probably much more than my body needs) and then stop thinking about it. I'm sure some days I get well over 200 some days just based on the types of food I decide to eat - but that wasn't because I was being anal and obsessive ... that's cause I like chicken, steak, fish, eggs etc.

I know some people will swear that their bodies recover, grow, etc on higher protein volumes - just know that the power of placebo is very strong indeed and that the most scientific studies we have on the topic really don't show any correlation between higher protein intake and lean mass gains. We have good empiric data that shows better weight loss with higher protein diets, but that's typically because protein is far more satiating than carbs. If you closely regulated calorie intake in protein-heavy vs protein-"adequate" arms of the study I bet you'd find very little real difference in terms of fat loss while dieting.

On the flip side, weight loss diets that have inadequate protein can actually put you at risk for muscle loss along with the fat loss - but this is not a problem your average american has unless they feel some stupid need to crash diet on nothing but iceberg lettuce and prunes. Most americans get a boatload of protein in their diet without thinking twice about it.



Indeed.

Hey, a little under 1.5g is allot better than what I thought when I wrote that response - LOL. Either way, if it works, don't fix it. I know Lyles diets and I respect his work. Personally, I would not eat that way because I don't think it is ideal. I'm not against protein. I'm a Protein Pig by my very nature and, if left alone with no regard for diet, I would probably eat Red Meat, Grapes and Apples all day. Probably the Northern Italian in me! My wife actually came home one day a couple of years ago to me walking around the house with a Roast Beef and a Hunting Knife. I kind of took the roast with me everywhere I went! Clearly activity level has allot to do with it too.





Great post as usual MSM. That's interesting stuff about the ICU's. If those under-developed infant only need 3g/kg, that's a fact that bodybuilders need to pay attention to. You could take a bodybuilder on 10iu's of HGH, Insulin, Selected Protein Peptides, and 1500mg per week of Anabolics and the growth potential wouldn't even scratch the surface by comparison to what you're talking about. That baby could double in size in short order and that's all the protein they need. Wow!!

Great points guys ^^^ In further "defense" of high protein intake such as my 300 grams (just under 1.5 g/lb of total weight) I can say a few things: That intake is still within recommended intake by all the leading experts. I also think carbs are over-rated by some on this forum. I'm not an endurance athlete. Since my carb needs are low (I lift 3x per week for 1 hour) increasing my fat and protein intakes will not hurt my results as they don't compromise my carb intake needs.

Here is another interesting observation: I spoke to a guy on this forum who did 600 lbs DLs on keto... He look good too (no homo) So why all the fuss about the need for carbs? (Basically I like the taste of fat more, that's what I'm getting at)

Another thing is this: for a guy like me with a relatively fast metabolism, i have to eat north of 4'000 calories in order to see 1 lbs weight gain every 2 weeks or so, and that means that if I cap off my protein intake at 1g/lb of lean mass and follow a standard 0.4g/lb fat intake I would be looking at a carb intake of about 550-600 grams... This is messed up...

And believe me guys it's not placebo when I say recovery and strength is better with more protein, I HATE paying more $$$ for more protein, I would rather convince myself to eat more cheap ass delicious carbs And I'd rather raise fat intake, I want my test!

[Cape1]

Great points guys ^^^ In further "defense" of high protein intake such as my 300 grams (just under 1.5 g/lb of total weight) I can say a few things: That intake is still within recommended intake by all the leading experts. I also think carbs are over-rated by some on this forum. I'm not an endurance athlete. Since my carb needs are low (I lift 3x per week for 1 hour) increasing my fat and protein intakes will not hurt my results as they don't compromise my carb intake needs.

Here is another interesting observation: I spoke to a guy on this forum who did 600 lbs DLs on keto... He look good too (no homo) So why all the fuss about the need for carbs? (Basically I like the taste of fat more, that's what I'm getting at)

Another thing is this: for a guy like me with a relatively fast metabolism, i have to eat north of 4'000 calories in order to see 1 lbs weight gain every 2 weeks or so, and that means that if I cap off my protein intake at 1g/lb of lean mass and follow a standard 0.4g/lb fat intake I would be looking at a carb intake of about 550-600 grams... This is messed up...

And believe me guys it's not placebo when I say recovery and strength is better with more protein, I HATE paying more $$$ for more protein, I would rather convince myself to eat more cheap ass delicious carbs And I'd rather raise fat intake, I want my test!

LOL! I love the "no Homo" thing! Look, it's a bodybuilding website. Men observe and comment on the bodies of other Men. To anyone reading this, and I can only speak for myself, I will assume that you are not a homo unless you specify otherwise (not that I would even care). What I'm saying is that there's no need to declare you sexual orientation.

Seriously, You have to do what works either way. Nobody can tell you what works and doesnt. Can a guy do 600pound deads on Keto? I beleive it. Why not? How much can he do on a balanced diet? Does this performance carry accross all TUT ranges? Meaning, I get it that someone can do an intense lift for 1 or 2 reps on low carbs. Can they hit top intensity with 30 seconds UT? Lots of variables to consider. Also, I don't think Strength loss is acute even on Keto type set ups. It happens over time.

Bottom line dude. If your diet is supportive of your life style, your goals and your athletic requirements, to me that = a good diet! Could you do better? Maybe but then again we all probably could to varying degrees.

Just to be clear. I wasn't ragging on your diet set up. Just pointing out a few things about protein because I think it's more misunderstood than carbs.

[msm00b]

a guy on this forum who did 600 lbs DLs on keto... He look good too (no homo)

My considerable respect for you just went down ever so slightly Kusok

"no homo" is usually only a phrase you hear from the mouths of homophobic little teens

[A.S.T.09]

What are some examples of complex carbs and simple carbs?