Like, how much triceps work does the overhead press work with shoulder width grip?
And how much triceps/shoulders does the bench press work with standard grip?
How much upper back do deadlifts work, and how much glutes/quads?
Deadlifts and squats are supposed to work calves, but my friend has got 150kg 1rm for squats and a 170 something 1rm for deadlifts and his calves are as small as mine.
I know neither are AMAZING, but I don't think you'd get to that stage and have tiny calves if either exercise really did anything significant for calves?
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04-17-2011, 01:29 PM #1
To what degree to compounds hit non target muscles?
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04-17-2011, 01:35 PM #2
Deadlifts are great in general, but not specific to training calves IMO. Try isolating the calves (soleus, gastrocnemius) with seated and straight leg calf raises.
Read this
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121250931
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04-17-2011, 01:35 PM #3
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Well it all depends on how one defines the "target" and the "non-target" muscle and in any exercise there doesn't have to be just one "target". In the case of the bench or overhead press, I think they're as much triceps exercises as they are chest or shoulder ones. Can't do a press without the triceps so calling it "non target" in that case doesn't make much sense to me.
As for the calves in the squat, I think their involvement is much lower than it is for the triceps in the press as they don't really actively contract during the movement but serve a more static function.Strength + Speed = Power
If you never fail, you aren't truly pushing yourself to the limit. If you never push yourself to the limit, how do you know what you're truly capable of?
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04-17-2011, 01:53 PM #4
Thanks for the replies. I'm already doing standing calf raises (though I honestly don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with them). It just winds me up a bit when people say calves are worked in deadlifts and squats. Maybe they're USED but I don't think you can expect to see any gains from them. It's misleading
As for calling a muscle target and non target in certain exercises maybe I'm wrong, I just assumed things like bench press were mostly chest (unless doing close grip or some other variation) and overhead press being mostly shoulders
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04-17-2011, 02:05 PM #5
Standing calf raises alone are not the answer. Introduce seated calf raise and some tabialis anterior work too for best results.
Read that link i posted (Calves lets grow them)
The two muscles in the calves are soleus and gastrocnemius. The soleus is predomninantly a slow twitch muscle that should respond better to higher reps. The gastrocnemius can be exercised like any other muscle (reps of 12 or less, pref 5-8 imo)
Basically go heavy on the standing calf raise (5-12 reps) and then go for reps (15+) on bent leg calf raises (such as seat raise) which hits the soleus. Also try tibilais anterior exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc-k7hhAMbY which should give you the aesthetic look when viewed from the front.
Im sure thats right. Like i said, read that thread
My parrot work is done for today lol
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04-17-2011, 02:27 PM #6
- Join Date: Mar 2010
- Location: Miami, Florida, United States
- Age: 35
- Posts: 3,909
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I think the involvement of the secondary muscles depends on which exercise you consider and how strict your form is.
Do not pray for an easier life, instead pray to be a stronger man
I do not want to become stronger, faster, or better. I want to become the strongest, the fastest, and the best.
Someone once told me not to bite off more than I could chew. I said I would rather choke on greatness than nibble on mediocrity.
B.S. Biology Class of 2011
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04-17-2011, 02:43 PM #7
yes, calves are worked during deadlifts and squats, but not directly. with constant training and progress in weight, even without isolating them, you should see results.
if you don't feel your calves during standing raises, you're definitely not doing them properly or too lightly. my calves are burning on that exercise, and it's hard to walk for a few seconds after that.
so i think if your training routine has deadlifts and squats in it, your form and diet is spot on, incorporating standing calf raises should definitely give you some nice growth at the beginning, and that might be enough, especially if you're also doing something for your hamstrings/glutes on the same leg day.
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04-17-2011, 03:57 PM #8
ahh ty! I'd heard it was lower reps for standing calf raises. I don't have any calf raise machines at my gym so I've been using the smith machine with a step for standing calf raises. I should use it for seated raises too ?
That tibilais anterior thing you posted looks good (it's the shin muscles right?) but my gym's dumbbels only go up to 32kg, and that looks like an exercise where you can use a lot of weight
NBthing - I do feel them being worked it's just my reps always stay the same (all my bodyweight exercises with higher reps seem to have this inconsistent reps problem) but I'll try 5-8 reps and see how that goes.
How are cardio machines like the stepper machine on high difficulty for calves?
Thanks brian
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04-17-2011, 05:17 PM #9
Deadlifts are a good calf workout.
I do not know if they would bring out their full potential, quite probably not, but if you are ever going to get big calves, you will get bigger calves with deadlifts.
Your friend may have got good numbers on the squat and deadlift and his calves be relatively small but I'll tell you a secret: He can do all the calf exercises on the list and he still won't get them to grow big.
Squats and deads have changed the way my legs look and nothing's been left out.
I don't do any calf exercises and I do no other exercise that targets legs directly or otherwise.
And I've never done.
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04-18-2011, 04:21 AM #10
Hmm is it fair to say you have good calf genetics, though? I've heard calves are one of the biggest muscles affected by genetics.
Mine are very scrawny like my dad's (not making excuses, I'm willing to work hard still, just saying). And my friend's look similar.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say he can do all the exercises for his calves and not get them to grow big? Can you explain why that is please? :P
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04-18-2011, 06:52 AM #11
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04-28-2011, 12:50 PM #12
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04-28-2011, 12:53 PM #13
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04-28-2011, 02:54 PM #14
If you've been training for a while and your routine is pretty solid all around then I wouldn't expect a ton of hypertrophy for non-targetted muscles, however if any of the muscles involved with a certain movement (i.e., lats, triceps for bench press) are weaker than they should be to stabilize/move the weight you will likely get some degree of hypertrophy and more than likely DOMS in that area.
i.e., My triceps have always been pretty developed, but when I first started benching my lats were always sore. My lats didn't "blow up" from benching but once I started really hammering my back, my lats are never sore after benching.
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04-28-2011, 04:20 PM #15
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04-28-2011, 04:25 PM #16
fundamentally, compounds hit non target muscles to a non-targeted extent.
practically, its simply a matter of seeing for urself. some guys get adequate limb development from compounds so dont bother with isos. others dont. u can only find out by trying.
fixed, my symmetrical friend."Though the concept is not scientifically validated in detail (it should be considered as a hypothesis rather than a scientific theory), it is useful from a practical standpoint. When training athletes, it is impossible to wait until scientific research provides all of the necessary knowledge." Vladmir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D.
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04-28-2011, 04:40 PM #17
This varies based on your form. If your elbows are out, then the tricep work would be significant because the elbows would be further out than your hands.
As the shoulders drift forward (become adducted in transverse plane) it brings different possibility into play though. What is most significant I think is the spatial relationship of hand and elbow. If you keep your hands above your elbows, the triceps work will be minimal but you will have a huge load on the shoulders because of the difficult leverage.
As the hands drift closer to the shoulder joint via additional bending, the triceps come into play more, while at the same time the load on the shoulder is lessened due to the shorter lever.
There's a standard grip? I honestly have trouble figuring out when pec vs delt comes into play. As to how much tricep, same logic as above applies, pay attention to elbows and hands. If hands are closer, you're in tricep land.
Depends on what you mean by upper back. Your retractors (and posterior deltoid, lats) will get a huge workout on the bottom when your torso is prone. As you stand upright, tension shifts off of them onto the elevators (upper traps, levator scapulae, serratus anterior) which help take some pressure off of the clavicle with partial-shrug tension. Muscles that hold the humerus into the socket (deltoids and rotor cuff I believe) would also be working a lot. I imagine the lat shuts off at the top of the deadlift because it would counteract this, plus the shoulder is extended to neutral position so it would be too short, and the back doesn't need much extension help at that point.
Glutes are always involved. Pound for pound, they do more work with stiff-legged variations. Quads will also do less work with the stiff variations. Keep in mind though that if knee bend allows enough weight, the glutes could end up doing more work simply by being part of that big picture. Sort of like how elbow curl is better pound for pound lift for the bicep than a row or lat pulldown, but one can work the bicep harder with those in some cases due to the higher forces.
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05-05-2011, 02:21 PM #18
ohh I thought this thread was pretty much dead!
thanks for some brilliant replies
I see what you're saying about my friends calves. I'm doing calf raises anyway as I refuse to believe I'm determined to have no calves for the rest of my life :>
also that makes sense about muscles needing to catch up (like lats on bench press), but then like you said that doesn't sound like it will work these muscles much at all
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