Ok, here's the skinny (no pun intended). I'm 6'6", 258, about 20% bodyfat, which would put my lean body mass at about 211. I'm following a 40/40/20 macro diet. Lift 5 days per week, switching it up with HIIT , no more than 8 reps, and also doing some interval weight training. My calculations have me at about 3,100 Cals to maintain, so I'm at 2,500 Cals. Since my waist measurement and weight have not changed in at least 3 weeks, I'd assume I need to adjust my Calories, but, man, I'd be suprised if I should consume less calories than 2,500 for a guy my size. Please not, I'm not hung up on the scale, as I've put on some muscle over the last 2 months, but I always use my waist measurement as the #1 measurement of fat loss. Any advice would be helpful.
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04-08-2011, 08:35 AM #1
- Join Date: Jun 2008
- Location: Billings, Montana, United States
- Age: 52
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Scale is stuck. Too many calories for a cut?
If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
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04-08-2011, 08:38 AM #2
Are you doing keto?.....heres few tips...Basic Terminology
1/ BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate): This is the amount of calories you need to consume to maintain your body if you were comatose (base level)....
2/ NEAT (Non-Exercise Associated Thermogenesis): The calorie requirements added by your daily activity that is NOT exercise (eg: washing, walking, talking, shopping, working). This is generally the most marked variable in a persons daily calorie requirements and something that everyone has a good amount of control over. This is what people term INCIDENTAL EXERCISE. It is also what helps keep 'constitutionally lean' people LEAN (they fidget)!
3/ EAT (Exercise Associated Thermogenesis): The calorie requirements associated with planned exercise.... Unless someone is doing a whole heap of exercise (eg: two or more hrs training a day) it usually doesn't add a stack of calories to your requirements (30 minutes of 'elliptical training isn't going to do it')
4/ TEF (Thermogenic effect of feedng): The calorie expenditure associated with eating.... REGARDLESS of what myths you have been told - this is NOT dependent on MEAL FREQUENCY. It is a % of TOTAL CALORIES CONSUMED (and 15% of 3 x 600 cal meals is the same as 15% of 6 x 300 cal meals). It varies according to MACRONUTRIENT content and FIBER content... For most mixed diets, it is something around 15%.... Protein is higher (up to 25%), carbs are variable (between 5-25%), and fats are low (usually less than 5%). So ->> More protein and more carbs and more fiber = HIGHER TEF. More FAT = LOWER TEF.
5/ TEE (Total Energy Expenditure): The total calories you require - and the sum of the above (BMR + NEAT + EAT + TEF).
How much do you need?
There is therefore a multitude of things that impact a persons MAINTENANCE calorie requirements
- Age and sex (males generally need > females for any given age)
- Total weight and lean mass (more lean mass = more needed)
- Physiological status (eg: sick or injured, pregnant, growth and 'enhancement')
- Hormones (eg: thyroid hormone levels, growth hormone levels)
- Exercise level (more activity = more needed)
- Daily activity level (more activity = more needed)
- Diet (that is - macronutrient intake)
In order to calculate your requirements the most accurate measure would be via Calorimetry [the measure of 'chemical reactions' in your body and the heat produced by these reactions], either directly (via placing a calorimeter where the heat you produce is measured) or indirectly (eg: HOOD studies where they monitor how much oxygen you use/ carbon dioxide and nitrogen you excrete over a given time). Although accurate - this is completely impractical for most people. So we mostly rely on pre-set formula to try to calculate our needs.
Estimating Requirements
The simplest method of estimating needs is to base your intake on a standard 'calories per unit of weight (usually kilograms)'. Typically:
- 26 to 30 kcals/kg/day for normal, healthy individuals with sedentary lifestyles doing little physical activity [12.0-14 kcal/pound]
- 31 to 37 kcal/kg/day for those involved in light to moderate activity 3-5 x a week with moderately active lifestyles [14-16 kcal/ pound]
- 38 to 40 kcals/kg/day for those involved in vigorous activity and highly active jobs [16-18 kcal/ pound].
For those involved in HEAVY training (eg: athletes) - the demand is even greater:
- 41 to 50 kcals/kg/day for those involved in moderate to heavy training (for example: 15-20 hrs/ week training) [18.5-22 kcal/ pound]
- 50 or above kcals/kg/day for those involved in heavy to extreme training [> 22 kcal/ pound]
Then a number of more complex formula which calculate BMR can also be used - which is then multiplied by an 'activity variable' to give TEE.
To go over a few BMR calculations:
1/ Harris-Benedict formula:
Particularly inaccurate - It was derived from studies on LEAN, YOUNG, ACTIVE males in a COLD lab MANY YEARS AGO (1919) and is notorious for OVERESTIMATING calorie requirements, especially in those that are overweight. IF YOU WANT AN ACCURATE READING, DON'T USE IT!
For MEN: BMR = 66 + [13.7 x weight (kg)] + [5 x height (cm)] - [6.76 x age (years)]
For WOMEN: BMR = 655 + [9.6 x weight (kg)] + [1.8 x height (cm)] - [4.7 x age (years)]
2/Mifflin-St Jeor:
Developed in the 1990s. More accurate than the above as it is more realistic in todays lifestyle settings. It still does not take into consideration the difference in metabolic rate as a consequence of high BF%. Thus, once again, it also overestimates needs in highly obese individuals. So - be warned it can OVERESTIMATE your needs.
For MEN: BMR = [9.99 x weight (kg)] + [6.25 x height (cm)] - [4.92 x age (years)] + 5
For WOMEN: BMR = [9.99 x weight (kg)] + [6.25 x height (cm)] - [4.92 x age (years)] -161
3/Katch-McArdle:
This is considered the most accurate formula for those who are relatively lean and who have a good understanding of their bodyfat %.
BMR = 370 + (21.6 x LBM)
Where LBM = [total weight (kg) x (100 - bodyfat %)]/100
To convert to a TOTAL requirement you multiply the result by an Activity Factor. THIS IS BASED ON MORE THAN JUST YOUR TRAINING! Your job/ lifestyle is important in this!
1.2 = Sedentary (Little or no exercise and desk job)
1.3-1.4 = Lightly Active (Little daily activity & light exercise 1-3 days a week)
1.5-1.6 = Moderately Active (Moderately active daily life & Moderate exercise 3-5 days a week)
1.7-1.8 = Very Active (Physically demanding lifestyle & Hard exercise or sports 6-7 days a week)
1.9-2.0 = Extremely Active (Hard daily exercise or sports and physical job)
(note: these activity factors generally include your LIFESTYLE (work) as well as your EXERCISE (gym/ sport) and a TEF of ~ 15% - which is an average mixed diet).
How Accurate are they?
Although these (sometimes) give rough ball-park figures, they are still 'guesstimations'. Most people still OVERESTIMATE activity, and UNDERESTIMATE bodyfat & end up eating TOO MUCH. So - use these as 'rough figures' and monitor your weight/ measurements for 2-4 weeks. IF your weight is stable/ measurements are stable, then you have likely found maintenance.
Using the Above to Recalculate Based on Goals
You will need to DECREASE or INCREASE intake based on your goals (eg: lose or gain mass).
And instead of using 'generic calorie amounts' (eg: 500 cals/ day), this is calculated on a % of your maintenance. Why? The effect of a given calorie amount on an individual is going to be markedly different based on their size/ total calorie intake. For example - subtracting 500 cals/ day from a 115# females 1500 total intake is 1/3rd of her total cals but 500 cals/ day for a 215# male on 3500 total intake is only 1/6th of their total... And it will result in markedly different effects on their energy levels and weight loss.
Generally:
- to ADD weight: ADD 10-20% calories to your total from above
- to LOSE weight: SUBTRACT 10-20% calories from your total from above
Then monitor your results and adjust as required.
NOTE: IF YOU ARE LESS THAN 18 YRS OF AGE - THESE FORMULA WILL NOT BE ACCURATE!
There is an energy cost associated with growth / inefficient movement / high surface area:mass ratio. Look HERE for alternatives.
As a teenager I would also STRONGLY suggest you don't obsess on calories and macros! Eat well, exercise regularly, and have fun while you can!
Macronutrient Needs
Once you work out how many CALORIES you need you need to work out how much of each macronutrient you should aim for. This is one of the areas that is MOST often confused - so to try to make it as simple as possible:
First rule: This should NOT be based on a generic RATIO of total calorie intake such as '30:40:30 or 40:40:20 Your body doesn't CARE what % intake you have for macronutrients. It works in terms of SUFFICIENT QUANTITY per LEAN MASS or TOTAL MASS. And calculations are generally as follows:
1. Protein: Most studies out suggest that in the face of ADEQUATE calories and CARBS then the following protein intakes are sufficient:
STRENGTH training -> 1.2 to 1.6g per KG bodyweight (about .6 / pound)
ENDURANCE training -> 1.4 to 1.8g per KG bodyweight (about .8 / pound)
ADOLESCENT in training -> 1.8 to 2.2g per KG bodyweight (about 1g / pound)
BUT they also acknowledge that protein becomes MORE important in the context of LOWER calorie intakes, or LOWER carb intakes.
Anyway - you can see that the general recommendations given in the 'bodybuilding' area (1g / pound) is nearly double this! And although the evidence out to suggest a NEED for this requirement is scarce - some general 'bodybuilding' guidelines would be based as follows:
If bodyfat UNKNOWN but AVERAGE = 1-1.25g per pound weight
If bodyfat KNOWN = 1.25-1.5g per LEAN weight
If you are VERY LEAN or if you are on a LOW TOTAL CALORIE INTAKE then protein becomes more important - so stick toward the higher levels:
Average bodyfat, lower calorie intake = 1.25-1.5 x pound total mass
Bodyfat known, lower calorie intake = 1.33-2 x pounds lean mass
If you are VERY OVERWEIGHT, VERY INACTIVE, and NOT on a lower calorie diet then you should stick closer to, or decrease slightly BELOW the above levels:
protein = something around the 1 x total weight (down to 1 x LEAN MASS).
2. Fats: Generally speaking, although the body can get away with short periods of very low fat, in the long run your body NEEDS fat to maintain general health, satiety, and sanity. Additionally - any form of high intensity training will benefit from a 'fat buffer' in your diet - which acts to control free radical damage and inflammation.
General guides:
Average or lean: 1 - 2g fat/ kg body weight [between 0.45 - 1g total weight/ pounds]
High bodyfat: 1-2g fat/ LEAN weight [between 0.45 - 1g LEAN weight/ pounds]
IF low calorie dieting - you can decrease further, but as a minimum, I would not suggest LESS than about 0.35g/ pound.
Note 1: Total fat intake is NOT the same as 'essential fats' (essential fats are specific TYPES of fats that are INCLUDED in your total fat intake)...
3. Carbs: VERY important for athletes, HIGHLY ACTIVE individuals, or those trying to GAIN MASS - Carbs help with workout intensity, health, and satiety (and sanity). But there are no specific 'requirements' for your body. Carbs are basically used by most as 'the extra stuff'.
If you are an athlete - I would actually suggest you CALCULATE a requirement for these:
moderately active: 4.5 - 6.5 g/ kg (about 2 - 3g/ pound)
highly active: 6.5 - 9 g/ kg (about 3 - 4g/ pound)
But for 'general folk' to calculate your carbs you just calculate it from the calories left over from fats/ protein:
carb calories = Total calorie needs - ([protein grams as above x 4] + [fat grams as above x 9])]
carbs in grams = above total/ 4.IIFYM crews ....I Reps back.
Traditional Wet Shave Crew / I can't hardly wait for tomorrow to come so I can lift then Wet Shave again.
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04-08-2011, 08:44 AM #3
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04-08-2011, 08:52 AM #4
I'd have put your maintenance cals closer to 3700. Which means 2500 cals was a huge deficit. No doubt your metabolism is sluggish at this point. I'd go up to maintenance cals for a few weeks. Then when you drop cals down, only go to 3200. Put some refeeds (higher cal days) in there as well. Once a week or every 10 days eat at least maintenance cals.
I'd also stick to a traditional 5 day split. Interval training isn't going to help you lose more. HIIT is fine a couple of times a week in addition to the 5 day split but you do need at least one rest day in there.
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04-08-2011, 08:58 AM #5
- Join Date: Jun 2008
- Location: Billings, Montana, United States
- Age: 52
- Posts: 70
- Rep Power: 960
Thank you for your response. I think you're correct on my metabolism. I will go to 3700 Cals and see what happens. For the past month, I've been doing a 5 day split. I'm doing 5-8 ea 9MPH treadmill sprints for 50 secs each, with 50 sec rest in between 3 days/ week after lifting. Thanks again.
Last edited by montanadadof3; 04-08-2011 at 08:59 AM. Reason: grammar erro
If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.
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04-08-2011, 08:59 AM #6
- Join Date: Sep 2008
- Location: Sandy, Utah, United States
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Personally, I'd take that to mean you should try to gain/build muscle, not cut. Your body doesn't want you to cut, that's why you're not loosing weight. Listen to your body, EAT ( if you're training hard ).
I guess everybody has what works for them. I used to be similar, and I found it next to impossible to build muscle. But I guess I got old enough to not care so much about having a little gut, and the result was i built lots of muscle and strength.
When you have more muscle, cutting will be easier ( I can loose weight at a drop of a hat, my maintenance calories is around 9000. But I'm trying to gain because of strongman, I probably eat 4 times what you say you do. )
Good luck.Last edited by bigtallox; 04-08-2011 at 09:05 AM.
Qualifying for long drive contest with 328 yard drive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKrGuFlqhaA
2017 Utah State Longest drive. This one went 328 and got me into finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-_3HrZzI4
2017 Rockwell challenge. 325 yards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeuB2rPMcBA
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04-08-2011, 09:04 AM #7
- Join Date: Jun 2008
- Location: Billings, Montana, United States
- Age: 52
- Posts: 70
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04-08-2011, 10:31 AM #8No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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04-08-2011, 10:38 AM #9No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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04-08-2011, 10:47 AM #10
- Join Date: Jun 2008
- Location: Billings, Montana, United States
- Age: 52
- Posts: 70
- Rep Power: 960
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04-08-2011, 12:40 PM #11
WHEN YOU UP YOUR CALORIES DO IT SLOWLY.... Maybe only a extra 200, every 3-4 days..
i.e. 2500, 2700,2900, etc...
same reason your having trouble loosing weight is maybe your metabolism is a bit sluggish, throwing in 3700 calories all at once on a slow metabolism, WILL PUT FAT ON YOU, untill your metabolism readjust.I do not sugar coat things, but you got in the condition you're in by "sugar coating."
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04-08-2011, 01:02 PM #12
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04-08-2011, 01:05 PM #13
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04-08-2011, 02:47 PM #14
- Join Date: Nov 2004
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04-08-2011, 02:52 PM #15
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04-08-2011, 03:06 PM #16
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04-08-2011, 06:26 PM #17
I consider 3k a bulk, 1800 a cut and 2500 maintenance. There are many seasoned, well muscled BBer's around here who are ripped, living in this world, and their metabolisms are just fine. Oh, and some of us are over 6 ft like you. Welcome to the truth. I don't think you should increase cals to lose weight. I think you should cut to 2200 and monitor.
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04-08-2011, 07:08 PM #18
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04-09-2011, 07:51 AM #19
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04-09-2011, 07:52 AM #20
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04-09-2011, 09:16 AM #21
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04-09-2011, 10:46 AM #22
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04-09-2011, 10:48 AM #23
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04-09-2011, 10:56 AM #24
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