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  1. #1
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    Scale is stuck. Too many calories for a cut?

    Ok, here's the skinny (no pun intended). I'm 6'6", 258, about 20% bodyfat, which would put my lean body mass at about 211. I'm following a 40/40/20 macro diet. Lift 5 days per week, switching it up with HIIT , no more than 8 reps, and also doing some interval weight training. My calculations have me at about 3,100 Cals to maintain, so I'm at 2,500 Cals. Since my waist measurement and weight have not changed in at least 3 weeks, I'd assume I need to adjust my Calories, but, man, I'd be suprised if I should consume less calories than 2,500 for a guy my size. Please not, I'm not hung up on the scale, as I've put on some muscle over the last 2 months, but I always use my waist measurement as the #1 measurement of fat loss. Any advice would be helpful.
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    Are you doing keto?.....heres few tips...Basic Terminology
    1/ BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate): This is the amount of calories you need to consume to maintain your body if you were comatose (base level)....
    2/ NEAT (Non-Exercise Associated Thermogenesis): The calorie requirements added by your daily activity that is NOT exercise (eg: washing, walking, talking, shopping, working). This is generally the most marked variable in a persons daily calorie requirements and something that everyone has a good amount of control over. This is what people term INCIDENTAL EXERCISE. It is also what helps keep 'constitutionally lean' people LEAN (they fidget)!
    3/ EAT (Exercise Associated Thermogenesis): The calorie requirements associated with planned exercise.... Unless someone is doing a whole heap of exercise (eg: two or more hrs training a day) it usually doesn't add a stack of calories to your requirements (30 minutes of 'elliptical training isn't going to do it')
    4/ TEF (Thermogenic effect of feedng): The calorie expenditure associated with eating.... REGARDLESS of what myths you have been told - this is NOT dependent on MEAL FREQUENCY. It is a % of TOTAL CALORIES CONSUMED (and 15% of 3 x 600 cal meals is the same as 15% of 6 x 300 cal meals). It varies according to MACRONUTRIENT content and FIBER content... For most mixed diets, it is something around 15%.... Protein is higher (up to 25%), carbs are variable (between 5-25%), and fats are low (usually less than 5%). So ->> More protein and more carbs and more fiber = HIGHER TEF. More FAT = LOWER TEF.
    5/ TEE (Total Energy Expenditure): The total calories you require - and the sum of the above (BMR + NEAT + EAT + TEF).


    How much do you need?
    There is therefore a multitude of things that impact a persons MAINTENANCE calorie requirements
    - Age and sex (males generally need > females for any given age)
    - Total weight and lean mass (more lean mass = more needed)
    - Physiological status (eg: sick or injured, pregnant, growth and 'enhancement')
    - Hormones (eg: thyroid hormone levels, growth hormone levels)
    - Exercise level (more activity = more needed)
    - Daily activity level (more activity = more needed)
    - Diet (that is - macronutrient intake)

    In order to calculate your requirements the most accurate measure would be via Calorimetry [the measure of 'chemical reactions' in your body and the heat produced by these reactions], either directly (via placing a calorimeter where the heat you produce is measured) or indirectly (eg: HOOD studies where they monitor how much oxygen you use/ carbon dioxide and nitrogen you excrete over a given time). Although accurate - this is completely impractical for most people. So we mostly rely on pre-set formula to try to calculate our needs.

    Estimating Requirements
    The simplest method of estimating needs is to base your intake on a standard 'calories per unit of weight (usually kilograms)'. Typically:
    - 26 to 30 kcals/kg/day for normal, healthy individuals with sedentary lifestyles doing little physical activity [12.0-14 kcal/pound]
    - 31 to 37 kcal/kg/day for those involved in light to moderate activity 3-5 x a week with moderately active lifestyles [14-16 kcal/ pound]
    - 38 to 40 kcals/kg/day for those involved in vigorous activity and highly active jobs [16-18 kcal/ pound].
    For those involved in HEAVY training (eg: athletes) - the demand is even greater:
    - 41 to 50 kcals/kg/day for those involved in moderate to heavy training (for example: 15-20 hrs/ week training) [18.5-22 kcal/ pound]
    - 50 or above kcals/kg/day for those involved in heavy to extreme training [> 22 kcal/ pound]

    Then a number of more complex formula which calculate BMR can also be used - which is then multiplied by an 'activity variable' to give TEE.
    To go over a few BMR calculations:
    1/ Harris-Benedict formula:
    Particularly inaccurate - It was derived from studies on LEAN, YOUNG, ACTIVE males in a COLD lab MANY YEARS AGO (1919) and is notorious for OVERESTIMATING calorie requirements, especially in those that are overweight. IF YOU WANT AN ACCURATE READING, DON'T USE IT!
    For MEN: BMR = 66 + [13.7 x weight (kg)] + [5 x height (cm)] - [6.76 x age (years)]
    For WOMEN: BMR = 655 + [9.6 x weight (kg)] + [1.8 x height (cm)] - [4.7 x age (years)]

    2/Mifflin-St Jeor:
    Developed in the 1990s. More accurate than the above as it is more realistic in todays lifestyle settings. It still does not take into consideration the difference in metabolic rate as a consequence of high BF%. Thus, once again, it also overestimates needs in highly obese individuals. So - be warned it can OVERESTIMATE your needs.
    For MEN: BMR = [9.99 x weight (kg)] + [6.25 x height (cm)] - [4.92 x age (years)] + 5
    For WOMEN: BMR = [9.99 x weight (kg)] + [6.25 x height (cm)] - [4.92 x age (years)] -161

    3/Katch-McArdle:
    This is considered the most accurate formula for those who are relatively lean and who have a good understanding of their bodyfat %.
    BMR = 370 + (21.6 x LBM)
    Where LBM = [total weight (kg) x (100 - bodyfat %)]/100


    To convert to a TOTAL requirement you multiply the result by an Activity Factor. THIS IS BASED ON MORE THAN JUST YOUR TRAINING! Your job/ lifestyle is important in this!
    1.2 = Sedentary (Little or no exercise and desk job)
    1.3-1.4 = Lightly Active (Little daily activity & light exercise 1-3 days a week)
    1.5-1.6 = Moderately Active (Moderately active daily life & Moderate exercise 3-5 days a week)
    1.7-1.8 = Very Active (Physically demanding lifestyle & Hard exercise or sports 6-7 days a week)
    1.9-2.0 = Extremely Active (Hard daily exercise or sports and physical job)
    (note: these activity factors generally include your LIFESTYLE (work) as well as your EXERCISE (gym/ sport) and a TEF of ~ 15% - which is an average mixed diet).


    How Accurate are they?
    Although these (sometimes) give rough ball-park figures, they are still 'guesstimations'. Most people still OVERESTIMATE activity, and UNDERESTIMATE bodyfat & end up eating TOO MUCH. So - use these as 'rough figures' and monitor your weight/ measurements for 2-4 weeks. IF your weight is stable/ measurements are stable, then you have likely found maintenance.


    Using the Above to Recalculate Based on Goals
    You will need to DECREASE or INCREASE intake based on your goals (eg: lose or gain mass).
    And instead of using 'generic calorie amounts' (eg: 500 cals/ day), this is calculated on a % of your maintenance. Why? The effect of a given calorie amount on an individual is going to be markedly different based on their size/ total calorie intake. For example - subtracting 500 cals/ day from a 115# females 1500 total intake is 1/3rd of her total cals but 500 cals/ day for a 215# male on 3500 total intake is only 1/6th of their total... And it will result in markedly different effects on their energy levels and weight loss.

    Generally:
    - to ADD weight: ADD 10-20% calories to your total from above
    - to LOSE weight: SUBTRACT 10-20% calories from your total from above
    Then monitor your results and adjust as required.

    NOTE: IF YOU ARE LESS THAN 18 YRS OF AGE - THESE FORMULA WILL NOT BE ACCURATE!
    There is an energy cost associated with growth / inefficient movement / high surface area:mass ratio. Look HERE for alternatives.
    As a teenager I would also STRONGLY suggest you don't obsess on calories and macros! Eat well, exercise regularly, and have fun while you can!


    Macronutrient Needs
    Once you work out how many CALORIES you need you need to work out how much of each macronutrient you should aim for. This is one of the areas that is MOST often confused - so to try to make it as simple as possible:
    First rule: This should NOT be based on a generic RATIO of total calorie intake such as '30:40:30 or 40:40:20 Your body doesn't CARE what % intake you have for macronutrients. It works in terms of SUFFICIENT QUANTITY per LEAN MASS or TOTAL MASS. And calculations are generally as follows:

    1. Protein: Most studies out suggest that in the face of ADEQUATE calories and CARBS then the following protein intakes are sufficient:
    STRENGTH training -> 1.2 to 1.6g per KG bodyweight (about .6 / pound)
    ENDURANCE training -> 1.4 to 1.8g per KG bodyweight (about .8 / pound)
    ADOLESCENT in training -> 1.8 to 2.2g per KG bodyweight (about 1g / pound)
    BUT they also acknowledge that protein becomes MORE important in the context of LOWER calorie intakes, or LOWER carb intakes.

    Anyway - you can see that the general recommendations given in the 'bodybuilding' area (1g / pound) is nearly double this! And although the evidence out to suggest a NEED for this requirement is scarce - some general 'bodybuilding' guidelines would be based as follows:
    If bodyfat UNKNOWN but AVERAGE = 1-1.25g per pound weight
    If bodyfat KNOWN = 1.25-1.5g per LEAN weight

    If you are VERY LEAN or if you are on a LOW TOTAL CALORIE INTAKE then protein becomes more important - so stick toward the higher levels:
    Average bodyfat, lower calorie intake = 1.25-1.5 x pound total mass
    Bodyfat known, lower calorie intake = 1.33-2 x pounds lean mass

    If you are VERY OVERWEIGHT, VERY INACTIVE, and NOT on a lower calorie diet then you should stick closer to, or decrease slightly BELOW the above levels:
    protein = something around the 1 x total weight (down to 1 x LEAN MASS).


    2. Fats: Generally speaking, although the body can get away with short periods of very low fat, in the long run your body NEEDS fat to maintain general health, satiety, and sanity. Additionally - any form of high intensity training will benefit from a 'fat buffer' in your diet - which acts to control free radical damage and inflammation.

    General guides:
    Average or lean: 1 - 2g fat/ kg body weight [between 0.45 - 1g total weight/ pounds]
    High bodyfat: 1-2g fat/ LEAN weight [between 0.45 - 1g LEAN weight/ pounds]
    IF low calorie dieting - you can decrease further, but as a minimum, I would not suggest LESS than about 0.35g/ pound.
    Note 1: Total fat intake is NOT the same as 'essential fats' (essential fats are specific TYPES of fats that are INCLUDED in your total fat intake)...


    3. Carbs: VERY important for athletes, HIGHLY ACTIVE individuals, or those trying to GAIN MASS - Carbs help with workout intensity, health, and satiety (and sanity). But there are no specific 'requirements' for your body. Carbs are basically used by most as 'the extra stuff'.
    If you are an athlete - I would actually suggest you CALCULATE a requirement for these:
    moderately active: 4.5 - 6.5 g/ kg (about 2 - 3g/ pound)
    highly active: 6.5 - 9 g/ kg (about 3 - 4g/ pound)

    But for 'general folk' to calculate your carbs you just calculate it from the calories left over from fats/ protein:
    carb calories = Total calorie needs - ([protein grams as above x 4] + [fat grams as above x 9])]
    carbs in grams = above total/ 4.
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  3. #3
    Registered User montanadadof3's Avatar
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    Thanks, Alex. No, I'm not on Keto. Thanks for the info. As I've mentioned, I'm doing 40/40/20. Perhaps I need to change it for less carbs/ more protein?
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    I'd have put your maintenance cals closer to 3700. Which means 2500 cals was a huge deficit. No doubt your metabolism is sluggish at this point. I'd go up to maintenance cals for a few weeks. Then when you drop cals down, only go to 3200. Put some refeeds (higher cal days) in there as well. Once a week or every 10 days eat at least maintenance cals.

    I'd also stick to a traditional 5 day split. Interval training isn't going to help you lose more. HIIT is fine a couple of times a week in addition to the 5 day split but you do need at least one rest day in there.
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  5. #5
    Registered User montanadadof3's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by freebirdmac View Post
    I'd have put your maintenance cals closer to 3700. Which means 2500 cals was a huge deficit. No doubt your metabolism is sluggish at this point. I'd go up to maintenance cals for a few weeks. Then when you drop cals down, only go to 3200. Put some refeeds (higher cal days) in there as well. Once a week or every 10 days eat at least maintenance cals.

    I'd also stick to a traditional 5 day split. Interval training isn't going to help you lose more. HIIT is fine a couple of times a week in addition to the 5 day split but you do need at least one rest day in there.
    Thank you for your response. I think you're correct on my metabolism. I will go to 3700 Cals and see what happens. For the past month, I've been doing a 5 day split. I'm doing 5-8 ea 9MPH treadmill sprints for 50 secs each, with 50 sec rest in between 3 days/ week after lifting. Thanks again.
    Last edited by montanadadof3; 04-08-2011 at 08:59 AM. Reason: grammar erro
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    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    but, man, I'd be suprised if I should consume less calories than 2,500 for a guy my size.
    Personally, I'd take that to mean you should try to gain/build muscle, not cut. Your body doesn't want you to cut, that's why you're not loosing weight. Listen to your body, EAT ( if you're training hard ).

    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    I always use my waist measurement as the #1 measurement of fat loss. Any advice would be helpful.
    I guess everybody has what works for them. I used to be similar, and I found it next to impossible to build muscle. But I guess I got old enough to not care so much about having a little gut, and the result was i built lots of muscle and strength.

    When you have more muscle, cutting will be easier ( I can loose weight at a drop of a hat, my maintenance calories is around 9000. But I'm trying to gain because of strongman, I probably eat 4 times what you say you do. )

    Good luck.
    Last edited by bigtallox; 04-08-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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    Originally Posted by bigtallox View Post
    Personally, I'd take that to mean you should try to gain/build muscle, not cut. Your body doesn't want you to cut, that's why you're not loosing weight. Listen to your body, EAT ( if you're training hard ).



    I guess everybody has what works for them. I used to be similar, and I found it next to impossible to build muscle. But I guess I got old enough to not care so much about having a little gut, and the result was i built lots of muscle and strength.

    Good luck.
    Excellent, Ox. Good getting some advice from a fellow bigguy. I simply want to increase muscle & strength, and lower bodyfat. But you're right. I gotta feed my muscles and the rest should fall into place. And yes, I am training hard. 5 day split, sticking to 6-8 reps.
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    Originally Posted by freebirdmac View Post
    I'd have put your maintenance cals closer to 3700. Which means 2500 cals was a huge deficit. No doubt your metabolism is sluggish at this point. I'd go up to maintenance cals for a few weeks. Then when you drop cals down, only go to 3200. Put some refeeds (higher cal days) in there as well. Once a week or every 10 days eat at least maintenance cals.

    I'd also stick to a traditional 5 day split. Interval training isn't going to help you lose more. HIIT is fine a couple of times a week in addition to the 5 day split but you do need at least one rest day in there.
    ^^^^This.

    Cardio comment bolded to remind you to not go overboard on cardio, OP. Get your calorie intake squared-away, and use it to produce your bodyfat loss.
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    Originally Posted by alex2363 View Post
    Are you doing keto?.....heres few tips...Basic Terminology
    .......................
    Unless you personally authored this information, you'd do well to cite your source.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    ^^^^This.

    Cardio comment bolded to remind you to not go overboard on cardio, OP. Get your calorie intake squared-away, and use it to produce your bodyfat loss.
    Thanks, Ironwill. I appreciate it. 2 Days of Cardio a week ... 3 max. I do HIIT because I loathe steady state cardio and would rather get it done quickly so I can spend the majority of my time with weights.
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    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    Thank you for your response. I think you're correct on my metabolism. I will go to 3700 Cals and see what happens. For the past month, I've been doing a 5 day split. I'm doing 5-8 ea 9MPH treadmill sprints for 50 secs each, with 50 sec rest in between 3 days/ week after lifting. Thanks again.
    WHEN YOU UP YOUR CALORIES DO IT SLOWLY.... Maybe only a extra 200, every 3-4 days..
    i.e. 2500, 2700,2900, etc...

    same reason your having trouble loosing weight is maybe your metabolism is a bit sluggish, throwing in 3700 calories all at once on a slow metabolism, WILL PUT FAT ON YOU, untill your metabolism readjust.
    I do not sugar coat things, but you got in the condition you're in by "sugar coating."
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    Originally Posted by bigtallox View Post
    Personally, I'd take that to mean you should try to gain/build muscle, not cut. Your body doesn't want you to cut, that's why you're not loosing weight. Listen to your body, EAT ( if you're training hard ).



    I guess everybody has what works for them. I used to be similar, and I found it next to impossible to build muscle. But I guess I got old enough to not care so much about having a little gut, and the result was i built lots of muscle and strength.

    When you have more muscle, cutting will be easier ( I can loose weight at a drop of a hat, my maintenance calories is around 9000. But I'm trying to gain because of strongman, I probably eat 4 times what you say you do. )

    Good luck.
    "my maintenance calories is around 9000"
    Good Lord! That's a LOT of food, Ox! LOL.
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    Originally Posted by mavrick77 View Post
    WHEN YOU UP YOUR CALORIES DO IT SLOWLY.... Maybe only a extra 200, every 3-4 days..
    i.e. 2500, 2700,2900, etc...

    same reason your having trouble loosing weight is maybe your metabolism is a bit sluggish, throwing in 3700 calories all at once on a slow metabolism, WILL PUT FAT ON YOU, untill your metabolism readjust.
    Will do, Mavrick. Thanks for the response, bud.
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    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    I always use my waist measurement as the #1 measurement of fat loss. Any advice would be helpful.
    When I'm dieting to lose body fat I use my face as the first measure to determine if I'm starting to reduce body fat. It's the first to start looking thin. My mid section starts looking thin late in the program.
    How can you visualize training a muscle if you don't know its structure?
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    Question just checking

    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    Thanks, Alex. No, I'm not on Keto. Thanks for the info. As I've mentioned, I'm doing 40/40/20. Perhaps I need to change it for less carbs/ more protein?
    Hi, I just wonder does your 40/40/20 include vegies and fruits? They have so much carbs. If u do not count them you may be on 20/20/60. Try another way to count your macros.
    Nata
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    Originally Posted by natasor View Post
    Hi, I just wonder does your 40/40/20 include vegies and fruits? They have so much carbs. If u do not count them you may be on 20/20/60. Try another way to count your macros.
    Nata
    Thanks for the input. I use Fitday.com to track my Macros, so I'm pretty confident I got it right Or, at least I hope. lol. PS. You look fantastic.
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    I consider 3k a bulk, 1800 a cut and 2500 maintenance. There are many seasoned, well muscled BBer's around here who are ripped, living in this world, and their metabolisms are just fine. Oh, and some of us are over 6 ft like you. Welcome to the truth. I don't think you should increase cals to lose weight. I think you should cut to 2200 and monitor.
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    Originally Posted by machined View Post
    I consider 3k a bulk, 1800 a cut and 2500 maintenance. There are many seasoned, well muscled BBer's around here who are ripped, living in this world, and their metabolisms are just fine. Oh, and some of us are over 6 ft like you. Welcome to the truth. I don't think you should increase cals to lose weight. I think you should cut to 2200 and monitor.
    Yeah. And 5'4" women who are older than you, with no medical conditions, out eat you and maintain. Seems right to me.

    If you are out of the norm you should be asking why. Uniqueness comes from medical issues, bad input/output assumptions, or hosed metabolisms.
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    Originally Posted by machined View Post
    I consider 3k a bulk, 1800 a cut and 2500 maintenance. There are many seasoned, well muscled BBer's around here who are ripped, living in this world, and their metabolisms are just fine. Oh, and some of us are over 6 ft like you. Welcome to the truth. I don't think you should increase cals to lose weight. I think you should cut to 2200 and monitor.
    Thanks for the input.
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    Originally Posted by freebirdmac View Post
    Yeah. And 5'4" women who are older than you, with no medical conditions, out eat you and maintain. Seems right to me.

    If you are out of the norm you should be asking why. Uniqueness comes from medical issues, bad input/output assumptions, or hosed metabolisms.
    That went right over my head ...
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    I have been fighting the bulk/cut diet for a long long time....for me it is not the calories...it is the food...I basically stick with a complex carb./protein diet with lots of veggies...since cutting sucks..I usually look like a power lifter...
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    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    That went right over my head ...
    Machined needs to rethink his maintenance and cutting cals.
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    Originally Posted by freebirdmac View Post
    Machined needs to rethink his maintenance and cutting cals.
    So, Freebird, what's your opinion on # of Cals?
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    Originally Posted by freebirdmac View Post
    I'd have put your maintenance cals closer to 3700. Which means 2500 cals was a huge deficit. No doubt your metabolism is sluggish at this point. I'd go up to maintenance cals for a few weeks. Then when you drop cals down, only go to 3200. Put some refeeds (higher cal days) in there as well. Once a week or every 10 days eat at least maintenance cals.

    I'd also stick to a traditional 5 day split. Interval training isn't going to help you lose more. HIIT is fine a couple of times a week in addition to the 5 day split but you do need at least one rest day in there.
    Originally Posted by montanadadof3 View Post
    So, Freebird, what's your opinion on # of Cals?
    What I posted earlier. I'd also use progress picts, how clothes fit, and measurements as metrics. Not the scale.
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