Incredients for a pre-workout

[JohnBrowne]

I'm running out of Vasocharge and haven't found any other products that I like so I'm thinking about buying some bulk ingredients and just dosing them myself.

So far I'm thinking

200mg caffeine
3g beta alanine
2g citrulline malate
15g of carbs from Gatorade

Suggestions on any ingredients I could add that have some clear benefit?

[Sporto1633]

I'm running out of Vasocharge and haven't found any other products that I like so I'm thinking about buying some bulk ingredients and just dosing them myself.

So far I'm thinking

200mg caffeine
3g beta alanine
2g citrulline malate
15g of carbs from Gatorade

Suggestions on any ingredients I could add that have some clear benefit?

Hmm...you might look into:

L-Tyrosine
ALCAR
ALA

And possibly:

Taurine
N-Acetyl Cysteine

I don't think any of those are expensive and I think they could benefit a pre-workout blend.

Sporto

[JohnBrowne]

Hmm...you might look into:

L-Tyrosine
ALCAR
ALA

And possibly:

Taurine
N-Acetyl Cysteine

I don't think any of those are expensive and I think they could benefit a pre-workout blend.

Sporto

incredients lmao

L-Tyrosine/ALCAR/ALA seem like good additions. Not too sure about Taurine and NAC though, what benefits do you think they have?

[Sporto1633]

incredients lmao

L-Tyrosine/ALCAR/ALA seem like good additions. Not too sure about Taurine and NAC though, what benefits do you think they have?

I was looking at them more from an antioxidant standpoint to help aid in the free radicals produced when training. Whether or not ingesting them before a workout is enough time for them to do that kind of job (helping to neutralize free radicals produced when training) or anything I don't know, but that's where my thought process was on those two...

Sporto

[coltmasterj]

From Dr. Warren Willey's book "Better Than Steroids", he recommends:

10 grams whey protein
1 gram L-leucine
15-25 grams of high GI carbs (gatorade should cover that)
50 mg Vitamin C (antioxidant)
20 iu vitamin E (antioxidant)
100 mg sodium (gatorade should cover that)
50 mg potassium (gatorade should almost cover that)
25 mg magnesium

He suggests drinking half of it 15 minutes pre-workout and the rest during the workout. And no, the pre-workout drink is not better than steroids, but part of the overall bodybuilder's nutritional approach to maximizing gains without steroids.

[coltmasterj]

On a side note, tonight I drank one of those "Monster" energy drinks on the way home from work tonight a few hours before working out, and I had unbelievable endurance tonight during my workout. I sh*t you not, I did the same weight that I did last week of ATG squats for 10 reps max, and I somehow got out 20 reps. My other lifts for the night also had dramatic increase in performance, but not like that.
I think I need to take a "Monster" more often. I guess my nervous system is really sensitive to it. I'll let you know if I can sleep tonight.

[Sporto1633]

I'm running out of Vasocharge and haven't found any other products that I like so I'm thinking about buying some bulk ingredients and just dosing them myself.

So far I'm thinking

200mg caffeine
3g beta alanine
2g citrulline malate
15g of carbs from Gatorade

Suggestions on any ingredients I could add that have some clear benefit?

Also, I'm really glad to see Citrulline Malate in the mix...that one is often overlooked/underrated and it happens to be one of my absolute favorites.

Sporto

[JohnBrowne]

Also, I'm really glad to see Citrulline Malate in the mix...that one is often overlooked/underrated and it happens to be one of my absolute favorites.

Sporto

I love it but I'll admit I'm kind of guessing at the dosing. Is there some guideline I'm unaware of?

[Sporto1633]

I love it but I'll admit I'm kind of guessing at the dosing. Is there some guideline I'm unaware of?

I use 2.5g pre-workout, and if I remember correctly, I got that dosage from this study:

Bendahan D, Mattei JP, Ghattas B, Confort-Gouny S, Le Guern ME, Cozzone PJ (Aug 2002). "Citrulline/malate promotes aerobic energy production in human exercising muscle". Br J Sports Med 36 (4): 282–9. doi:10.1136/bjsm.36.4.282. PMC 1724533. PMID 12145119. http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/pmidlookup?v...&pmid=12145119.

Sporto

[JohnBrowne]

So does citrulline malate have benefits over pure L-citrulline? Seems like the performance benefits are from only the citrulline itself.

[Sporto1633]

So does citrulline malate have benefits over pure L-citrulline? Seems like the performance benefits are from only the citrulline itself.

Honestly, I don't really know if there is a difference or not in the benefits. Is there a cost difference that would warrant getting the regular l-citrulline over the malate if there wasn't a difference?

Sporto

[JohnBrowne]

From Dr. Warren Willey's book "Better Than Steroids", he recommends:

10 grams whey protein
1 gram L-leucine
15-25 grams of high GI carbs (gatorade should cover that)
50 mg Vitamin C (antioxidant)
20 iu vitamin E (antioxidant)
100 mg sodium (gatorade should cover that)
50 mg potassium (gatorade should almost cover that)
25 mg magnesium

He suggests drinking half of it 15 minutes pre-workout and the rest during the workout. And no, the pre-workout drink is not better than steroids, but part of the overall bodybuilder's nutritional approach to maximizing gains without steroids.

I heavily supplement vitamins C and E anyway as well as magnesium and I do take some BCAAs while training as well.

On a side note, tonight I drank one of those "Monster" energy drinks on the way home from work tonight a few hours before working out, and I had unbelievable endurance tonight during my workout. I sh*t you not, I did the same weight that I did last week of ATG squats for 10 reps max, and I somehow got out 20 reps. My other lifts for the night also had dramatic increase in performance, but not like that.
I think I need to take a "Monster" more often. I guess my nervous system is really sensitive to it. I'll let you know if I can sleep tonight.

Pretty sure there is close to 300mg of caffeine in a Monster. I've tried consuming that much caffeine at once but I ended up getting heart palpitations...

[JohnBrowne]

Honestly, I don't really know if there is a difference or not in the benefits. Is there a cost difference that would warrant getting the regular l-citrulline over the malate if there wasn't a difference?

Sporto

Not really but I can get the L-citrulline in pill form as opposed to powder form which is more convenient in terms of getting an accurate dose. Not to mention citrulline malate powder tastes terrible.

[Sporto1633]

Not really but I can get the L-citrulline in pill form as opposed to powder form which is more convenient in terms of getting an accurate dose. Not to mention citrulline malate powder tastes terrible.

Ah I see. Well from my limited knowledge just based on the vocabulary, the difference with the malate would be absorption factor I'm assuming. So unless l-citrulline doesn't absorb very well (or as well as malate) and you have to take more because of it, then you might go with the malate instead.

But you're right, it does taste pretty bad lol

Sporto

[JohnBrowne]

Ah I see. Well from my limited knowledge just based on the vocabulary, the difference with the malate would be absorption factor I'm assuming. So unless l-citrulline doesn't absorb very well (or as well as malate) and you have to take more because of it, then you might go with the malate instead.

But you're right, it does taste pretty bad lol

Sporto

So I'm imagining you use Primaforce CM and just use the little scoop that comes with it?

[N01SYtZ]

since i take xtend intra workout, i like to snack on a few berries pre workout

but ive always thought of making my own pre wo since i cant afford supplements and shiz i just get bored and think of my own

list of ingredients would go something like this
vitamin C
beta alanine
arginine nitrate
caffeine
1,3 dymeth
citrulline malate
and if you're not taking creatine already, throw some of that **** in there.

personally i never really use pre wo products, just some berries

[Sporto1633]

So I'm imagining you use Primaforce CM and just use the little scoop that comes with it?

I do use the Primaforce CM, as well as the scoop. I start off with 2 scoops Xtend (which has 1g of CM in it per 2 scoops), I then eyeball 3/4 scoop of the Primaforce CM. I don't get too anal about exact dosages and err on the side of a little more when eyeballing...

So I guess it depends too on how anal you want to be about the dosing...

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

since i take xtend intra workout, i like to snack on a few berries pre workout

but ive always thought of making my own pre wo since i cant afford supplements and shiz i just get bored and think of my own

list of ingredients would go something like this
vitamin C
beta alanine
arginine nitrate
caffeine
1,3 dymeth
citrulline malate
and if you're not taking creatine already, throw some of that **** in there.

personally i never really use pre wo products, just some berries

I've always just taken vitamin C with breakfast (1g daily unless a week out from a show)...never bothered with it pre-workout

The arginine I would rather have post workout (~10g)

1,3 Dimethylamylanine will be banned soon, so use it while you can if you like it

Along with the arginine, I would opt for my creatine post workout as well (5g).

Just my $.02

Sporto

[N01SYtZ]

I've always just taken vitamin C with breakfast (1g daily unless a week out from a show)...never bothered with it pre-workout

The arginine I would rather have post workout (~10g)

1,3 Dimethylamylanine will be banned soon, so use it while you can if you like it

Along with the arginine, I would opt for my creatine post workout as well (5g).

Just my $.02

Sporto

yeah, i to take vitamin C 1 gram in the AM unless im either feeling a little ****ty or something important is coming up ( liek a show ) but i think the science or the broscience i should say behind taking it pre and post is that while lifting you may be straining your immune system ? who knows lol vitamin C never killed anyone.. ( dont quote me on that )

arginine is known to reduce stress on the heart and improve circulation
1,3 dymeth i've loved ever since i tried 2 scoops of jack3d lol and yes i know its going to be banned but i dont really use those products anyway
and i agree with you on the creatine although its in a load of pre workouts just in small dose's

[JoeBro]

check this out.....has the most ingredient per scoop out there and is priced right

http://thenewrealdeal.com

[Sporto1633]

yeah, i to take vitamin C 1 gram in the AM unless im either feeling a little ****ty or something important is coming up ( liek a show ) but i think the science or the broscience i should say behind taking it pre and post is that while lifting you may be straining your immune system ? who knows lol vitamin C never killed anyone.. ( dont quote me on that )

Unless you are competing, and have been dieting a long time and/or at a very low body fat level (or you already have a very poor immune system to begin with), then normal weight training and exercise is not going to impair your immune system to the point where you need to do anything about it lol.

Also, too much of an anti-oxidant can make it a pro-oxidant and and actually cause negative effects.

arginine is known to reduce stress on the heart and improve circulation

There are benefits to arginine, I'm not arguing that. All I am saying is that I wouldn't want it PRE workout, ESPECIALLY combined with caffeine. First off, you have arginine, a vasodilator, widening the blood vessels while caffeine, a vasoconstrictor, narrowing the blood vessels. It's never a good thing when you are trying to tell something in the body to do two different things at the same time.

Arginine is really just an amino acid. The reason so many companies use it in their products is that it has been shown to increase Nitric Oxide levels in the blood, BUT studies have shown that supplemental arginine actually does not do this at all. The body knows it has enough and will not utilize more arginine to increase NO. Here is just one study:

1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.

Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.

Sporto

[N01SYtZ]

^^ thanks for all the info man!
i only take a gram of vitamin c every morning and like i said earlier rarely use pre workout supp's maybe once a week

[Sporto1633]

check this out.....has the most ingredient per scoop out there and is priced right

http://thenewrealdeal.com

Has the most ingredients per scoop? Priced right? I actually can't tell if you are serious or not lol

First off, 350mg of caffeine? Have you ever heard of over-stimulation? That much caffeine in one shot is not good. Well, unless you used to be addicted to meth and need a fix...

Aside from that, I'm not seeing what warrants paying $50/bottle when most other pre-workouts are priced underneath that significantly.

Phosphorus? Really? It's abundant in so many food sources that it's hard for fatties eating fast food and buffets all the time to be deficient in phosphorus.

The calcium/magnesium (which I understand why they are in there because of the added phosphorus), but those can be taken care of with a simple multi (which most athletes spending money on a pre-workout are almost assuredly taking).

Then you get the BCAAs, creatine, CM, and beta alanine - which most pre-workouts have, and again, are priced significantly below $50/month.

So, I have to ask...

Are you SRS?

And if you are, please aware me...

Sporto

[coltmasterj]

I did end up sleeping ok last night with the help of some melatonin and tylenol PM, but I think I was pretty wired as I read that I used the word "tonight" 3 times in the first sentence of my first post. But, yeah, something about that drink made a difference in my gym performance last night...probably the caffeine but possibly the ginseng or guarana extracts.

From Wikipedia:

The caffeine content of most Monster energy drinks is 10 mg/oz.(34 mg/dL, 1.75 mmol/L),[5] or 160 mg for a 16 oz can. As with most other energy drinks the packaging usually has a warning printed on it saying to limit the number of cans consumed in a day - to 3 for the 16 oz size (one per day in Australia), and it is not recommended for pregnant women, children under 5 years old, and or people who are sensitive to caffeine.

Ingredients:[6] carbonated water, sucrose, glucose, taurine, sodium citrate, color added, panax ginseng root extract, L-carnitine, caffeine, sorbic acid, benzoic acid, niacinamide, sodium chloride, glucuronolactone, inositol, guarana seed, pyridoxine hydrochloride, sucralose, riboflavin, maltodextrin, cyanocobalamin.

[fltallpaul]

I've always just taken vitamin C with breakfast (1g daily unless a week out from a show)...never bothered with it pre-workout


Sporto

I have seen your breakfast...lol