Cutting water on Friday [poll]

[JohnBrowne]

How it's handled on game day can vary body type to body type but there are some very important reasons to stay hydrated in my opinion:

The forum won't let me post an actual link to an article, but if you go to my site, hit "articles", "peaking" and then Gigantic and Dry - some info there. Sorry I couldn't put a direct link. Gotta hit 30 posts first - I'm on my way ; )

in after Dr. Joe

[Barn01]

Personally I never cut water but I do change what I drink and the amounts that I drink. I've met lots of guys and girls that cut water, sometimes food as well ... days before the comp. I have no idea how they can live like that and the look on their faces is usually borderline death! From what I've seen there are few competitors that aren't taking a coaches advice so I'm sure there's still a TON of old school dogma going on with these antics.

[DietDoc]

Loading up on potassium is not much different than loading sodium when it comes to aldosterone levels - not going to get the effect you want. As a matter of fact, it will pull sodium and water from within the cell and that's how you'll cramp, get super flat, and muscle can't contract. Potassium is what is used to make lethal injections to get the heart to stop. You lost water for sure - from in and out of the muscle cells. Flat, soft, squishy....not the look you're after on stage : )

[Slovation]

Loading up on potassium is not much different than loading sodium when it comes to aldosterone levels - not going to get the effect you want. As a matter of fact, it will pull sodium and water from within the cell and that's how you'll cramp, get super flat, and muscle can't contract. Potassium is what is used to make lethal injections to get the heart to stop. You lost water for sure - from in and out of the muscle cells. Flat, soft, squishy....not the look you're after on stage : )

If you say carb load on foods that just so happen to be high in potassium like potatoes will that have any negative affect on things if you are keeping everything else consistant? Or is is when you force an increase/decrease on one or the other that cause negative affects?

[Sporto1633]

So there is an acceptable tolerance that the body will allow for balance between inter and extra water? You think its possible to swing to the most favorable side of that tolerance and time that swing correctly? How long can you hold water to that favorable side of tolerance?

Why is it so hard to believe that if you can hold more water sub-q than in the muscle and look worse that you can also hold more water in the muscle than sub-q and look better?

Tommy's techniques always confuse the hell out of me because from a theoretical perspective they shouldn't work, but his conditioning on stage is the best of the best.

I appreciate that, and believe me, I know exactly what you mean. When I first started competing, I did all of the old school bro-science techniques - cut water, cut sodium, higher reps "tone" muscle, you name it. After a few years of not placing where I wanted to, that's when I hired Layne back in 2007. He had just turned pro the year before and posted some pictures up of himself and I knew I could learn a lot from him on how get to that level. And I did...I learned a lot. He was able to de-bunk a lot of the things that I had heard before about various aspects of bodybuilding, and then explain with science as to why things either work or don't. It was a huge eye-opener for me.

Now, just as I did with Layne, I continued to talk to and learn from the best of the best in this sport...simply because, I want to eventually be one of the best at this sport. Now, when I say best of the best, I am referring to the top natural bodybuilders who seem to always either be winning their classes or overalls at just about any show they show up to. I'm not going to name names here, but let's just say that when you look up the top natural shows each year, there are always the same names in each federation that always seem to be at the top of the list in either their class or the overall. What I found after talking with these people ad nauseum was that just about every one of them do quite a few more "finer detail" things during their prep, especially peak week(s). Most of them use the natural diuretic pills, taper water, control sodium/potassium, control specific food sources, etc. They don't just "hit macros" and they do manipulate water, sodium/potassium, etc. So, my thinking was that there just might be something to it if almost ALL of these top level pros that are winning shows are doing it EVEN THOUGH there might not be a research study out there backing up what they are doing (not that there ever would be anyway).

So believe me, I know exactly what you are saying. It was VERY hard for me to go from someone like Layne where there is a research study backing up a lot of things that he says, to start listening to pros who are consistently winning professional shows that don't have a research study backing up everything they do. But, what I have found though on not only myself, but the clients I work with is that there IS something to this way beyond what any available research study can show. The difference isn't dramatic by any means (which is why I said before that there aren't a lot of people on this level yet where I would recommend messing with it), but there IS a difference. And when you are talking about a pro level show where just about EVERYONE shows up in shape with glutes, then what is it worth to you to show up perhaps a few percent better, harder, grainy, etc. to try and place better? I know for a fact that I could not have done as well as I did had I just shown up lean with glutes, hitting macros, and not manipulating water, sodium/potassium. The other bodybuilders in my class at both of my shows were WAY bigger than me, but I was told what separated me from the rest of the pack was how hard, dry and full I was in addition to being lean with glutes.

So, I do agree with the fact that for most, not cutting (or what I would call tapering) water is the best option to minimize any mistakes on additional variables, I will also say that there most definitely IS something more to fluid balance than not doing any manipulation whatsoever. Just as you can swing the door one way to make you look worse, you can also swing it the other way to improve your look. Dramatically? No. Which, again, was why I said before that you have a lot to lose and only a little bit to gain. But, if you are competing at a high level, is the risk worth it to you to gain some placings and possible win a show you couldn't otherwise? All I can say is that is was for me...

With all due respect to Tommy - he is a phenomenal athlete- if u get shredded to the bone by being insanely disciplined and working very hard for long enough......you are going to look dry on stage unless you do something really wacky like swing your sodium way out of range or eat carbs until u spill. This is by no means a dig- its really a compliment- but the last week peak tricks (with the exception of obviously carb loading) probably did not change his appearance very significantly at all.

I'll have to disagree with you here. Being extremely lean does not equal being bone dry. There were bodybuilders at both of my shows, and in my class even, that were ridiculously shredded with glutes but were NOT dry. And their placings reflected that.

Exactly, all the work was done in the hard work was done in the previous weeks. Either you're super shredded of you're not.

I agree that the vast majority of it is the hard work over several weeks of prepping and getting to that ultra lean level. I disagree that that is all there is to it.

I would be inclined to agree with Tommy in that slight shifts might be able to take place from slightly manipulating water intake, but the visual result from that slight shift is rather insignificant. Drastic swings in water intake will not result in the dry look a natural bodybuilder is looking to achieve.

The key here is "slight" and also that you are doing "slight" shifts to more variables than just the water intake.

I will disagree however that the visual result is insignificant. If you are lean enough, the visual difference is quite noticeable - just as it is when you can see someone who is lean that is softening up within minutes/hours on show day depending on what approach they are using for both prejudging and the night show and what all they did the prior week or two. I've literally seen bodybuilders show up looking like Berto with just insane stuff popping everywhere and within an hour, because of their approach, soften right up and look completely different on stage. I've also seen the reverse happen Hell, Ron Parmeter can vouch for the visual change I went through that whole day of the Cape Cod show. He literally saw me blow up for pre-judging, soften back up a bit afterwards, and blow right back up again for the night show. If he sees this thread, he might even post pictures he took over his phone on the visual difference from one hour to the next (he showed me pics he still had on his phone from that day at the Arnold). He thought I was performing some sort of voodoo on myself lol.

I think maybe the poll should have the options for....

keep water consistant
or
taper water

I honestly think that theres no way one could look better by drastically cutting water. Its also not very healthy and I feel could sacrifice performance on stage as well. I had damn near 3 gallons on show day and all the guys that were cutting water or keeping it minimal were the ones huffng and puffing on stage struggling to hold poses.

Agreed! I think we all know that cutting water either drastically, or completely out, is a one way ticket to disaster!

Loading up on potassium is not much different than loading sodium when it comes to aldosterone levels - not going to get the effect you want. As a matter of fact, it will pull sodium and water from within the cell and that's how you'll cramp, get super flat, and muscle can't contract. Potassium is what is used to make lethal injections to get the heart to stop. You lost water for sure - from in and out of the muscle cells. Flat, soft, squishy....not the look you're after on stage : )

Agreed - there is a delicate balance you don't want to interrupt with respect to sodium/potassium!

Sporto

[Cumulonimbus]

Exactly, all the work was done in the hard work was done in the previous weeks. Either you're super shredded of you're not.

Lol sorry about this, it was typed on my iPhone. Guess I wasn't paying attention

[Sporto1633]

in after Dr. Joe

By the way, I just wanted to say that the constructive criticism you gave me on my legs looking smaller this last year lit a fire under my *ss! I will be bringing those bad boys back up over the next couple of years and every leg day where I don't feel like bringing it, I'm just gonna remember that post

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

Lol sorry about this, it was typed on my iPhone. Guess I wasn't paying attention

Don't you just love how the iPhone will also auto correct some words you don't want auto-corrected and you end up sending a text that makes no sense?

Sporto

[AustrianOakJr]

Tommy - i read everything you wrote. Very interesting and very good points, indeed. I hope that I can achieve the level of lean-ness where I can play around with some of those variables, notice the differences, and decide for myself. Thanks for the input.

[mikespe]

Tommy I have to say that your reply was some of the BEST advice I have read here on this forum in quite a while. To be honest, I didn't know who you were before I commented on this thread. But I looked at your pictures and I am VERY impressed! It's obvious you know what you're talking about...especially when it comes to what works for YOU. But a lot of what you said makes a LOT of sense to me. I come from the "old school" way of doing things. My last competition was 1992 and much has changed since then. BUT I have still seen some of the "old techniques" being used in "new ways" like tapering water (not cutting). Back in the day I did a COMPLETE decarb & not a partial. I had to measure my ketone level continuously. But that's the way things were done then. Many of these guys on this forum don't understand that & when I tell them how I used to prep they think I'm nuts & that is NOT the way to prep. But in all honesty, much is still the same (at least with the TOP competitors as you mentioned) but just modified & tweaked to be safer AND more effective. The trainer I have for this show has helped me A LOT in the area of looking how I USED to prep & combine it with the current techniques the the results are so much better than 20 years ago. The combination has allowed me to be in BETTER shape earlier & having the diet doing most of the work NOT the cardio!

To be honest, I still use the high rep method for contest prep BUT as advised by my trainer, I kept the calories HIGH (3000 +/-). This has had AMAZING results allowing me to get lean yet keep most of my muscle (just the usual muscle loss expected when fat loss occurs)...so there is an example of taking the old way & modify it with the new!

Thank you for all the great information...AND that you are able to help others WITHOUT just saying they are wrong & putting them down for how they do things!

[Cumulonimbus]

Don't you just love how the iPhone will also auto correct some words you don't want auto-corrected and you end up sending a text that makes no sense?

Sporto

Yes, drives me nuts! Sometimes I notice the auto-correction and press the little 'x' to stop it from changing and it doesn't register and I don't notice that.. grr!

[simpleguy4]

I have a show in 4 weeks & I will be at least partially cutting water that Wed at 4pm...I'll also be taking Xpell the natural diuretic. I'll still be eating some green veggies so I will get my water from there. PLUS any water I do take in will be distilled to eliminate trace sodium....

Bad move all around......cutting water way too early (late, late Friday at the earliest) + distilled water will leach ALL minerals from your body...not just sodium. No sodium=no vascularity, no pump, and ineffective carb load. I would definitely rethink your strategy.....

[mikespe]

Bad move all around......cutting water way too early (late, late Friday at the earliest) + distilled water will leach ALL minerals from your body...not just sodium. No sodium=no vascularity, no pump, and ineffective carb load. I would definitely rethink your strategy.....

This does make sense...again coming from my last show years ago distilled water was the norm on contest week...however we did not have Xpel as a natural diuretic to assist with water manipulation. Could you provide some research or article that gives an example of water intake on prep week?

Thanks

[DietDoc]

Some good points - sounds like a few people get it. The bottom line is that there is no recipe. Every person is going to be different and even contest to contest, every person is in a unique metabolic context and it's not going to be the same. You have to be able to read your body and know what you need.

The problem with tapering water can be that you get flatter than you think and don't recover enough to get filled back up. I see tremendous pros lose classes or shows because they just weren't aggressive enough. Hard...detailed....lean - absolutely - but they looked 30% better the week or two before the show because the fullness increases muscle separation on top of just seeing the added size. Use carbs and minerals to control how much water is retained. You can err much better on being full and tight by having enough (which really means too much - more than your body needs) and controlling carbs better.

Natural "dieuretics" - a lot of raw, plant-based potassium - just another variable to try to control and outsmart your body's homeostatic drive. You'll lose that battle every time.

Good note on "no sodium = no vascularity." It also means no water being held in the muscle, so no fullness and a lot of shaking and cramping.

[DomzyCuttin]

Bad move all around......cutting water way too early (late, late Friday at the earliest) + distilled water will leach ALL minerals from your body...not just sodium. No sodium=no vascularity, no pump, and ineffective carb load. I would definitely rethink your strategy.....

I read something by Hany Rambod I believe (could have been Aceto) and he doesnt believe that low sodium can diminish your carb load. I see everyone saying that sodium is essential for proper carb load. Any have any science to back this up?

I personally will be dropping sodium slightly 2 days out and 1 day out, but not cutting it. Im not natural though.