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  1. #91
    Registered User silversurfer75's Avatar
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    Any opinion on TKD

    Shadow you seem to do great research. Ive not seen much info on tkd and was wondering if you had any views on it for fat loss and workout recovery. Doesnt seem many do tkd so im wondering if it has any value.
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  2. #92
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by apace View Post
    great list to follow

    what about coffee ,teas , diet sodas , sweeteners, sugar free gum and all other sugar free items , are all these OK to take , ?
    i'm not really sure about that. these things seem to depend heavily on the individual. i personally can drink 5 cups of coffee a day with tons of splenda and i'll be fine, but others report that they've been knocked from ketosis. i think the best thing is to just test it out for yourself to see what happens. test for ketosis with a urinalysis, then drink some coffee with a ton of splenda and then test right afterwards, an hour afterwards, 3 hours afterwards and see what happens.

    Originally Posted by silversurfer75 View Post
    Shadow you seem to do great research. Ive not seen much info on tkd and was wondering if you had any views on it for fat loss and workout recovery. Doesnt seem many do tkd so im wondering if it has any value.
    sure. a TKD allows you to remain under ketosis for longer periods of time compared to a CKD. you don't have to worry about depletion workouts or getting back into ketosis every cycle. it's more contained and concentrated.

    generally you just consume around 30-50 g carbohydrate about 30 minutes before your (high-intensity) workout. make sure you lift heavy with intensity. don't do a TKD if you're just gonna do light-weight.

    here are some bullet-point guidelines for the TKD:



    taken from The ketogenic diet: a complete guide for the dieter and practitioner
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  3. #93
    Registered User silversurfer75's Avatar
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    Thanks. I appreciate it.
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  4. #94
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    Great post man, you've really help me out understanding the basics of keto (aka food etc). I still have to read a little more and maybe click on the sub links. One question I have; whats depletion workout?. Do you have to do it before you start you "carb up" day. Is it something that has to be done. What are the benefits of it. I couldnt find it on your log ( maybe is there, but didnt read it lol) I appreciate the time you've taken to helps the keto community!
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  5. #95
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chuyortiz View Post
    Great post man, you've really help me out understanding the basics of keto (aka food etc). I still have to read a little more and maybe click on the sub links. One question I have; whats depletion workout?. Do you have to do it before you start you "carb up" day. Is it something that has to be done. What are the benefits of it. I couldnt find it on your log ( maybe is there, but didnt read it lol) I appreciate the time you've taken to helps the keto community!
    the idea of a depletion workout is to void your muscles of glycogen so that when you consume sugars, the imbalance between the blood and muscles is so great that the muscles suck all of it up like a vacuum. a depletion workout isn't necessary but advised.

    no i didn't really talk about any of that actually. the guide was focused on the standard ketogenic diet.
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  6. #96
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    Couple questions about TKD..

    Would your method of kickstarting a keto diet apply for TKD? The 2 days of fasted cardio to get into a good ketosis state. Or could I just immediately start a TKD diet from day 1? I'm worried that I won't get into a strong ketosis state if I'm already digesting 30g+ worth of carbs prewo.

    Also, the carbs digested for pre workout (25-50g), how would these be calculated into your macros? These carbs are counted separately from your 5% daily carbs right? So let's say your daily calorie intake is 2000. You want 40g carbs for prewo (160 calories). So that leaves you with 1840 calories. The 1840 is then split for 60/35/5?

    Thanks in advance.
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  7. #97
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lee_manG View Post
    Couple questions about TKD..

    Would your method of kickstarting a keto diet apply for TKD? The 2 days of fasted cardio to get into a good ketosis state. Or could I just immediately start a TKD diet from day 1? I'm worried that I won't get into a strong ketosis state if I'm already digesting 30g+ worth of carbs prewo.
    you should be able to enter ketosis even if you start a TKD on day 1, especially if you're depleting your liver-glycogen in the morning with cardio for the first few days.
    Originally Posted by Lee_manG View Post
    Also, the carbs digested for pre workout (25-50g), how would these be calculated into your macros? These carbs are counted separately from your 5% daily carbs right? So let's say your daily calorie intake is 2000. You want 40g carbs for prewo (160 calories). So that leaves you with 1840 calories. The 1840 is then split for 60/35/5?

    Thanks in advance.
    i believe that's correct.
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  8. #98
    123 Lee_manG's Avatar
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    Appreciate the help.
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  9. #99
    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    OP you're awesome!!! Thanks a lot for this.. I needed to learn about Keto and all the other threads are just sloppy with information and d/misinformation and overall was getting too confusing.

    Reps!


    Edit: Owe you reps!


    Just one question, more than likely a silly one, but a question nonetheless.

    There shouldn't be any problems with having to cycle clenbuterol while on Keto, right? Or is there anything I should be aware?
    Last edited by illriginalized; 04-17-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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  10. #100
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by illriginalized View Post
    OP you're awesome!!! Thanks a lot for this.. I needed to learn about Keto and all the other threads are just sloppy with information and d/misinformation and overall was getting too confusing.

    Reps!


    Edit: Owe you reps!


    Just one question, more than likely a silly one, but a question nonetheless.

    There shouldn't be any problems with having to cycle clenbuterol while on Keto, right? Or is there anything I should be aware?
    i'm pretty sure i've heard of people cycling clen while on keto without any problems. i did some digging around though and found this: http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../1144.abstract and it looks like clen will increase glycogen synthesis by as much as 45% which is possibly a good thing since muscle-glycogen will at least be partially depleted under ketosis, glucose should be shuttled into the muscles foremost. this will especially be good if you implement a CKD.
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  11. #101
    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    i'm pretty sure i've heard of people cycling clen while on keto without any problems. i did some digging around though and found this: http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../1144.abstract and it looks like clen will increase glycogen synthesis by as much as 45% which is possibly a good thing since muscle-glycogen will at least be partially depleted under ketosis, glucose should be shuttled into the muscles foremost. this will especially be good if you implement a CKD.
    Thanks for your response, bro!


    I was reading about CKD last night as well... This is the source: http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...enic-diet.html


    Not sure if that's accurate or if we have even more details. I'll continue to do a little more research.
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  12. #102
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    Hey this thread is awesome, but does anyone know the effects of keto-diets on bone? I heard it leads to increase mineral loss.
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  13. #103
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ilikedeadlifts View Post
    Hey this thread is awesome, but does anyone know the effects of keto-diets on bone? I heard it leads to increase mineral loss.
    it can but you can lose minerals on any diet. i think bone marrow cannot use ketone-bodies for fuel but only glucose, and these are recycled for reuse by the bones. it's also a good idea to supplement with calcium and magnesium
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  14. #104
    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    Ok so I've followed this guide pretty closely except for the part about not eating after 6PM.

    I go to the gym at 6PM and my last meal is typically by 8:45-9PM which is typically:

    PWO protein shake

    4oz of Cottage cheese

    2 scoops of almond butter

    I dropped carbs from about 240g to 100-120g (it's really tough to get below 100g)

    Today I went to the store, picked up Ketone (keto sticks). Did the test.. and it claims, "negative". Even though I've dropped carbs, my energy levels are up, in fact, no change in my workouts.

    I've been on keto diet (without the fasting after 6PM start) since Monday morning.

    The only thing I think could be slowing this process down is my breakfast.. typically:

    3/4 cup of wheaties

    1/4 cup of oats

    2 table spoons of wheat germ

    1 cup of milk

    This puts me into about 80 grams of carbs, the rest of the day all my meals barely consist of carbs up until PWO which then lands me into the 110~120g region.


    *So far I've gained weight, but waist hasn't increased. Chest/back, arms, and legs have all increased in size though.




    Should I start over tomorrow (not a gym day), not eating after 6PM, then HIIT on empty stomach on sunday?
    Last edited by illriginalized; 04-22-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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  15. #105
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    80 grams of carbs? for that to be 5% of your calories you'd need to be eating 6400 cals/day. why are you eating oats and wheat for breakfast? try dropping your carb intake to around 30-40 g/day.
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  16. #106
    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    80 grams of carbs? for that to be 5% of your calories you'd need to be eating 6400 cals/day. why are you eating oats and wheat for breakfast? try dropping your carb intake to around 30-40 g/day.
    o.o;

    I currently eat a totality of 2,800~2,900 calories (cutting)


    Hm... alright maybe I'll just have to cut out the cereal+oatmeal.

    Replace it with eggs then have a 2nd serving of eggs or something.
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  17. #107
    Sors Inanis shadowwalker021's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by illriginalized View Post
    o.o;

    I currently eat a totality of 2,800~2,900 calories (cutting)
    5% of that is 35 grams carbs. you weren't getting into ketosis because you've been eating too many carbs. the whole don't eat before 6 p.m. thing is just an idea for the first day if you want to enter ketosis very quickly. it's not necessary though.
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  18. #108
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    Originally Posted by shadowwalker021 View Post
    5% of that is 35 grams carbs. you weren't getting into ketosis because you've been eating too many carbs. the whole don't eat before 6 p.m. thing is just an idea for the first day if you want to enter ketosis very quickly. it's not necessary though.
    Alright gonna start at 35g tomorrow.
    أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
    I do not hate Jews. What I specifically dislike is racial/ethnic supremacy and extremism that inevitably contradicts a root belief system. An example is Jewish (ethnic) supremacy aka Zionists. This is not exclusive to Jews nor their religion, there is in fact Arab zionists, Muslim zionists, Christian zionists, American zionists, Democrat zionists, and even atheist zionists.
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    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by illriginalized View Post
    Alright gonna start at 35g tomorrow.
    Nice.. checked keto progress with keto stick.. have traces now. Did 15 minute HIIT Saturday morning on empty stomach + P90X ab workout.
    أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
    I do not hate Jews. What I specifically dislike is racial/ethnic supremacy and extremism that inevitably contradicts a root belief system. An example is Jewish (ethnic) supremacy aka Zionists. This is not exclusive to Jews nor their religion, there is in fact Arab zionists, Muslim zionists, Christian zionists, American zionists, Democrat zionists, and even atheist zionists.
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  20. #110
    Registered User Reinagel's Avatar
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    Soo basically, the only carbs I eat are 5g carbs for two days, to get into ketosis, then load up on 60% fat 35% protein 5% carbs everyday.
    And intake lots of carbs one day a week if im doing 3 HIIT and 3 lifting sessions a week?

    Can you enter ketosis with under 30g of carbs a day?
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    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Reinagel View Post
    Soo basically, the only carbs I eat are 5g carbs for two days, to get into ketosis, then load up on 60% fat 35% protein 5% carbs everyday.
    And intake lots of carbs one day a week if im doing 3 HIIT and 3 lifting sessions a week?

    Can you enter ketosis with under 30g of carbs a day?
    I officially entered today after doing Ab Ripper X (P90X) and a 2 mile bike ride.. but I've kept my carbs (since Saturday) @ 16 grams from PWO protein shake.

    Apparently for me @ 2800 calories (cutting), 30~35 grams of carbs is the maximum.
    أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
    I do not hate Jews. What I specifically dislike is racial/ethnic supremacy and extremism that inevitably contradicts a root belief system. An example is Jewish (ethnic) supremacy aka Zionists. This is not exclusive to Jews nor their religion, there is in fact Arab zionists, Muslim zionists, Christian zionists, American zionists, Democrat zionists, and even atheist zionists.
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  22. #112
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    Hmm alright.
    Well I guess ill try just eating less carbs today, and if I havent entered by saturday ill have to do a HIIT workout that morning before I start my meals since I don't have time to do cardio in the morning on weekdays.
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  23. #113
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    Also am I right about carbing up once a week like on sunday since im doing some kind of workout 6 days a week?
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    Originally Posted by Reinagel View Post
    Also am I right about carbing up once a week like on sunday since im doing some kind of workout 6 days a week?
    not until after at least 2 weeks of being in straight keto...and even after that the carb up is not necessary unless you feel your workouts are suffering, esp if you are cutting. if you carb up unnecessarily, you will just be stalling progress
    ____________________________
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    Training/Food/Recipe log:
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    other recipe logs:
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    (Part I) - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132899693
    (Part II) - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132982263
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    I have read your article and it's very excellent, but I am bit confused about this whole process. If you would, could you put how keto work in very simple matter?

    Like.. what to do in 1,2,3 steps. Basically dumb it down for me.. :P
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    Originally Posted by AK713Spike View Post
    I have read your article and it's very excellent, but I am bit confused about this whole process. If you would, could you put how keto work in very simple matter?

    Like.. what to do in 1,2,3 steps. Basically dumb it down for me.. :P
    read shadowwalkers blog.... it has everything you need there

    http://josepharcita.blogspot.com/201...osis.html#33MM
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    (Part I) - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132899693
    (Part II) - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132982263
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  27. #117
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    Standard Ketogenic Diet
    1. Decrease this number by 20% to lose weight or increase it by 20% to gain weight.
      • Ex. 2 (Tod wants to gain weight): 3200 x (1.00 + 0.20) = 3840 Calories
    2. Figure out how much lean body mass you possess.
    3. Once you know what your LBM (lean body mass) is, then either multiply your LBM by (0.8 if you are non-active) or (0.9-1.1 if you are active).
      • Now that Tod knows his LBM, he will multiply this by 0.9-1.1: 160 * 1 = 160. This is the number of grams of protein that Tod should consume per day. 160 grams of protein per day.
    4. Next determine the amount of carbohydrates to consume per day.
      • Ex. Tod decided that he wants to lose weight. His Caloric needs per day are 2560. 2560 Calories * 0.05 = 128 Calories of carbohydrates; 128/4 = 32 grams carbohydrates.
    5. Subtract the Calories attributed to protein and carbohydrate in order to determine the amount of fat to be consumed.
      • In Tod's particular case, he should consume 199 grams fat, 160 grams protein, 32 grams fat per day
    6. Divide the grams of each macro-nutrient by the amount of meals you will eat per day to find the grams of each macro-nutrient needed per meal.
      • Ex. Tod wants to eat 3 meals per day. 199 grams fat / 3 = 66 grams fat per meal. 160 grams protein / 3 = 53 grams protein per meal. 32 grams carbohydrate / 3 = 10 grams carbohydrate per meal.
    7. Now use this list of ketogenic foods and devise several meals which fit your macro-nutrient goals per meal and only eat those meals.
      • Here are 10 sample meals that I've made in my keto log (Here) and here is an entire daily sample meal plan (Here).
    Targeted Ketogenic Diet
    • You can begin this diet on day 1 of a standard ketogenic diet
    Cyclical Ketogenic Diet
    Before beginning
    1. Once the negative symptoms begin, that means that you've entered ketosis. Now maintain ketosis without any refeeds until the symptoms disappear and you feel better. This may take 2-3 weeks.
    2. If you are performing any type of weight-training then employ a TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) until the symptoms disappear.
    3. Once the symptoms disappear you are fat-adapted and can begin a CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) if you'd like.
    Steps to a CKD
    1. On Friday perform a depletion workout. This should be a full body workout. Interval-training is superior to weight-training for maximal glycogen synthesis, but either is fine.
      • Ex. sets of burpies might be good.
    2. Approximately 5 hours before your depletion workout, consume 25-50 gram carbohydrates with a small amount of protein and fat. Dextrose would be a good bet for this.
    3. Approximately 1-2 hours before the depletion workout, consume 25 grams glucose and 25 grams fructose. (honey with some fruit would be good for this).
    4. Perform the depletion workout.
    5. For the first 24 hours of your carb-load after completion of the depletion workout, 4.5 g/lb LBM of carbohydrate should be consumed. A ratio of 70/15/15 carbohydrate/protein/fat should be employed.
      • 2880 / 70 * 100 = 4114 total Calories. 4114 * .15 / 4 = 154 g protein. 4114 * .15 / 9 = 68 g fat.
      • For the first 24 hours Tod should consume 720 g carbohydrate, 154 g protein, 68 g fat.
      • For the first 24 hours Tod should consume high GI carbohydrates. Here is a glycemic index list of foods: GI food list
    6. For the second 24 hours of your carb-load, 2.3 g/lb LBM of carbohydrate should be consumed. A ratio of 60/25/15 carbohydrate/protein/fat should be employed.
      • 1472 / 60 * 100 = 2453 total Calories. 2453 * .25 / 4 = 153 g protein. 2453 * .15 / 9 = 41 g fat.
      • For the second 24 hours Tod should consume 368 g carbohydrate, 153 g protein, 41 g fat.
      • For the second 24 hours Tod should consume low GI carbohydrates. Here is a glycemic index list of foods: GI food list
    7. After the second 24 hour carb-load period, begin again your standard ketogenic Caloric level and macro-nutrient ratio.
    8. Employ intense weight-training to deplete muscle and liver glycogen in order to return to ketosis.
    Last edited by shadowwalker021; 04-28-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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    Originally Posted by AK713Spike View Post
    I have read your article and it's very excellent, but I am bit confused about this whole process. If you would, could you put how keto work in very simple matter?

    Like.. what to do in 1,2,3 steps. Basically dumb it down for me.. :P
    okay, good idea. i posted the step by step thing in the post above this one.

    sheesh i'm pooped after that. i should get paid for this
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  29. #119
    Neosapien illriginalized's Avatar
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    I have a question...

    This morning @ 6am I ate eggs with steak in a steak roll.

    Then ate tuna with mayo @ 9am

    For the heck of it... I decided to do a urinalysis and now it claims I have "no traces" of ketones. o.O;

    The steak roll, according to the package it came in.. only has 16g of carbs.

    Should I just do another test tonight after I've eaten the rest of my calories? Throw in a HIIT session while it's still morning?
    أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
    I do not hate Jews. What I specifically dislike is racial/ethnic supremacy and extremism that inevitably contradicts a root belief system. An example is Jewish (ethnic) supremacy aka Zionists. This is not exclusive to Jews nor their religion, there is in fact Arab zionists, Muslim zionists, Christian zionists, American zionists, Democrat zionists, and even atheist zionists.
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    Originally Posted by illriginalized View Post
    I have a question...

    This morning @ 6am I ate eggs with steak in a steak roll.

    Then ate tuna with mayo @ 9am

    For the heck of it... I decided to do a urinalysis and now it claims I have "no traces" of ketones. o.O;

    The steak roll, according to the package it came in.. only has 16g of carbs.

    Should I just do another test tonight after I've eaten the rest of my calories? Throw in a HIIT session while it's still morning?
    are you sure that the serving size isn't actually per ounce instead of per roll? for example each roll may be 2-4 ounces, and if i'm correct then you probably consumed over 30 g carbs. though 16 gram carbohydrate in one meal will probably knock you out of ketosis for a short while anyway.

    why are you eating normal bread on this diet anyway? -_- if you want bread choose a low-sugar/carb option.
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