exactly.
only in christianity does a father reward the killers of his son.
worse yet; the christian god has made it clear that he wants to be obeyed and worshiped.
he commanded his people not to kill.
yet kill his son (who is actually him) and mankind is gifted eternal life.
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03-11-2011, 03:19 PM #91"As sure as the world stands, you jf1 shall spend an eternity in Hell in eternal torment..."
jake24
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03-11-2011, 04:22 PM #92
What I truthfully don't understand about Christian theology is this:
If Jesus is the son of god and also god, then why would he even give a **** that he was tortured and killed on Earth? I mean, here's this guy that is omnipotent, yet we're supposed to feel bad for him because his body was tortured. The body doesn't seem like the important part of Jesus at all, yet Christians emphasize both his humanness and his godliness. Even after all that torture and the murder, Jesus resurrects days later, so it doesn't seem like it mattered at all that he suffered.
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03-11-2011, 05:52 PM #93
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Except they both stole for Jesus's pattern. And Jesus was just as real.
I won't profess to tell anyone of those groups (or the many others) to depart from what he believes is the true faith. But in the end, there can only be one path to God. Only one is his inspired word, the rest are just cheap imitations.🎥
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03-11-2011, 05:54 PM #94
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03-11-2011, 06:04 PM #95
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Not according to the scripture I read:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 From what I read, the way God feel about it is explained very well: and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17🎥
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03-11-2011, 06:24 PM #96
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03-11-2011, 11:35 PM #97
I thought I answered that within the EDIT. Its not because "He blessed us for killing His son", but through the murder of His son - He had taken on the complete punishment of ALL sin throughout existence and pardoned us who were fallen because of it and seperated from Him beforehand because of it, and made us right WITH Him. You sadden me man, you try to profess such wisdom, and I know myself I am far from wise - but you act a damn fool. You don't care in the SLIGHTEST towards any type of knowledge of it, and any type of answer that may the the RIGHT one, you rebuke it for sake of "Logical arguement" which is naught but a pile of dookie smellier than a cow patch. You sir, are a troll.
It truly isn't a fear and emotionally driven text. The portion of sin and hell are sincerely what it is. If we were still permitted to enter into Heaven (though it is not possible, but for the sake of arguement), without God's sacrifice, we wouldnt enjoy it. His holiness and purity would BURN us because of our sin and shame we carry. It is what it is. Yes through His sacrifice, we are pardoned from that possibility, but more importantly it has allowed us to be able to fruitfully pursue a relationship with the Creator of existence itself.
Meh. Call me an idiot all you want, I'm not the sharpest cacti on the plant, but I'm not the dullest either. I'm not stupid, and I do use my intellect, and regardless of how much I may strive to try using it to comprehend - guess what? It truly is what it is. Flesh cannot discern things of spirit. I have to rely on God to guide me towards revelations of meaning within text. It is not a simple "WEEEELLLPP I read the bible once, LOL its stupid - people who believe this mush are idiots". No. It is a LIFE LONG ordeal which you have to study, and more than just studying the text itself to understand, you ought to pursue God and view it in the scope of salvation to get any type of clue. You say we respond in "vague religious cliche answers towards logical answers", but if the TRUTH is not what you seek, then what CAN be the answer? And if it is answered, there are 50 some if not MANY more you are "seeking" - which in reality you are not seeking, but it seems as if you are merely asking so that the "Christian" you are asking is pointed to say "You know what, I don't know, I take it by faith" to which you respond, "AHA!!!!!! You are an idiot for believing without proof!" (insert other type of insult) in terms of finding a fault in the defence so you have a scape goat for proving us "wrong" yourselves.
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03-12-2011, 12:25 AM #98
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03-12-2011, 04:42 AM #99
yes, we know that god was 'pleased' with his son.
i missed the part where he was so pleased with his death that he proffered us a reward!
you cant be that dense.
"“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”...KILL HIM AND I WILL REWARD YOU![/b]
it would be logical to assume that yahweh would not be happy that humans killed the son that he sent (which is actually him).
if god created man in 'his image', then god would be gieved and upset about the torture and murder of jeebus.
your religion however, states that he was so pleased with this that he rewarded us with eternal life!
:rolleys:Last edited by jf1; 03-12-2011 at 05:45 AM.
"As sure as the world stands, you jf1 shall spend an eternity in Hell in eternal torment..."
jake24
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03-12-2011, 04:56 AM #100
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Here is another spin on it most people have not considered -- the Abrahamic God actually introduced death onto the planet (if they are correct) and killed for the first time on this planet himself.
Consider the implications of Genesis 3:21 --
And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.
The Abrahamic God is a god of killing -- it killed for the first time on this planet, demands that his followers kill for him, and even committed "suicide by police" by allowing the Romans to execute him (to Christians at least.)"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They'll race behind you. They will stumble; they will fall. But, in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." Jor-El
---
Kris Gethin's Body By Design, pg. 43/44 (Yes, that s me)
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03-12-2011, 05:48 AM #101
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03-12-2011, 08:07 AM #102
lol u srs? nah you cant be srs.
jus sayin, creatures weren't necessarily immortal at that point. the creation was perfect in physical condition in that there were no radiation, etc. and was a perfect growing environment for everything, but it doesnt mean death wasn't in the world. Before God got the animal skins, you realize what happened right? Adam and Eve had sinned and brought spiritual death unto themselves and brought the curse of sin into creation. IMO you guys are so smart, your just stupid and are acting willfully ignorant.
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03-12-2011, 08:12 AM #103
One of the most humorous aspects of dealing wwith those with full-blown Christardation is the way they will repeat exactly what you have said, changing the emphasis of words or ideas as if they somehow made their counter-claim demonstrably true. This thread is a perfect example:
jf1: God is rewarding humanity for murdering his Son.
Christards: No, it was a sacrifice, not a murder.
As if whether or not Jesus went willingly to his death changes the implications of the actions of those that put him on the cross! Can you imagine the way law enforcement would change if society at large embraced such a ridiculous notion?
Police: You're under arrest for murder.
Criminal: It wasn't murder, he wanted to die.
Police: Oh, okay, just making sure, have a nice day.
Christards create vast and deeply emotional paragraphs about how Jesus sacrificed himself for them, yet this does nothing to change the fact 1) Jesus was intentionally murdered and 2) all of humanity is rewarded for that murder, just as all of humanity is purportedly rewarded for accepting that murder (call it a sacrifice if you want, but Jesus was still urdered).
If I went willingly to my own murder, say, willingly walking into an ambush, knowing that this action would save someone else's life, was I or was I not murdered? THe logical mind comes to the conclusion that I was murdered, regardless of my own intent, because it did nothing to change the original intent (murder) of my murderers! Yet because this involves Jesus, it has to be something MAGICAL, something SPECIAL: it was a SACRIFICE!
Good show, jf1; I had not considered this angle of Christardation, but it is painfully clear thaat Christianity rewards murders now!ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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03-12-2011, 08:15 AM #104
What you say here doesn't really matter; no matter how you wring out the definition of the story, or the order of the events they happened in, the Bible is an untrustworthy document.
Burial of Jesus:
Jesus’ burial is important because without it, there can be no tomb from which Jesus can arise in three days. It’s also historically implausible: crucifixion was intended as a shameful, horrible execution which included allowing the bodies to remain nailed up until they rotted off. It’s inconceivable that Pilate would have agreed to turn the body over to anyone for any reason. This may have something to do with why the gospel authors all have different stories about it.
How Long Was Jesus in the Tomb?:
Jesus is portrayed as being dead and in the tomb for a given length time, but how long?
Mark 10:34 - Jesus says he will “rise again” after “three days.”
Matthew 12:40 - Jesus says he will be in the earth “three days and three nights...”
No resurrection narrative describes Jesus as being in a tomb for three full days, or for three days and three nights.
Guarding the Tomb:
Would the Romans have guarded Jesus’ tomb? The gospels disagree on what happened.
Matthew 27:62-66 - A guard is stationed outside the tomb the day after Jesus’ burial
Mark, Luke, John - No guard is mentioned. In Mark and Luke, the women who approach the tomb do not appear to expect to see any guards
Jesus is Anointed Before Burial:
It was tradition to anoint a person’s body after they died. Who anointed Jesus and when?
Mark 16:1-3, Luke 23:55-56 - A group of women who were at Jesus’ burial come back later to anoint his body
Matthew - Joseph wraps the body and the women come the next morning, but no mention is made of anointing Jesus
John 19:39-40 - Joseph of Arimathea anoints Jesus’ body before burial
Who Visited Jesus’ Tomb?:
The women visiting Jesus’ tomb is central to the resurrection story, but who visited?
Mark 16:1 - Three women visit Jesus’ tomb: Mary Magdalene, a second Mary, and Salome
Matthew 28:1 - Two women visit Jesus’ tomb: Mary Magdalene and another Mary
Luke 24:10 - At least five women visit Jesus’ tomb: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Joanna, and “other women.”
John 20:1 - One woman visits Jesus’ tomb: Mary Magdalene. She later fetches Peter and another disciple
When Did the Women Visit the Tomb?:
Whoever visited and however many there were, it’s also not clear when they arrived.
Mark 16:2 - They arrive after sunrise
Matthew 28:1 - They arrive at about dawn
Luke 24:1 - It is early dawn when they arrive
John 20:1 - It is dark when they arrive
What Was the Tomb Like?:
It’s not clear what the women saw when they arrived at the tomb.
Mark 16:4, Luke 24:2, John 20:1 - The stone in front of Jesus’ tomb had been rolled away
Matthew 28:1-2 - The stone in front of Jesus’ tomb was still in place and would be rolled away later
Who Greets the Women?:
The women aren’t alone for long, but it’s not clear who greets them.
Mark 16:5 - The women enter the tomb and meet one young man in there
Matthew 28:2 - An angel arrives during an earthquake, rolls away the stone, and sits on it outside. Pilate’s guards are also there
Luke 24:2-4 - The women enter the tomb and two men suddenly appear — it’s not clear if they are inside or outside
John 20:12 - The women do not enter the tomb, but there are two angels sitting inside
What Do the Women Do?:
Whatever happened, it must have been pretty amazing. The gospels are inconsistent in how the women react, though.
Mark 16:8 - The women keep quiet, despite being told to spread the word
Matthew 28:8 - The women go tell the disciples
Luke 24:9 - The women tell “the eleven and to all the rest.”
John 20:10-11 - Mary stays to cry while the two disciples just go home
We are to believe the clearly fictitious story of creation, and yet the details of Jesus' burial cannot be correlated? GTFO!ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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03-12-2011, 08:29 AM #105
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03-12-2011, 08:49 AM #106
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Ya know just throwing it out there, before science showed how the natural world worked ancient religions all had a plethora of different gods they fiercely believed controlled everything. Oh and this is all before the first Christian like religion's oldest recorded beginnings, and wouldn't you think if all humans came from an original 2 whom actually talked to God, then at the very least all descended people would likely pass on stories about 1 God creating everything.
Logicaly this should be a checkmate argument against any intelligent Christian, and that's without going in to the ****ed up obvious incest, God's supposedly perfect yet obviously flawed plans, and the lack of those things called dinosaurs in the Bible.
But it never will because no matter how little it makes sense, some people need to believe in a God controlling things to deal with their struggles in life. I see it as a sign of weakness, but I might be more tolerant of religious belief if it didn't keep scientific advancement for the greater good from being researched. Religion is brainwashing, everyone may not be strapping on a bomb vest for their God but any hardcore believer of almost any religion could be convinced to be Just as radical as the jihad.
Sorry about the long post, just wanted to get my point across.
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03-12-2011, 05:54 PM #107
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03-13-2011, 06:05 AM #108
Yep; no reason, no logic, no rationality: only fear-mongering. There is no reason to be Christian other than the fear of Hell. That is the sole reason of Christianity: to avoid Hell. It has nothing to do with being a good person, because it has been shown time and again that belief in God or Christ is not required to BE good, let alone to THINK good. When you cut away all the fat, and only the meat is left, what a bitter meat it is: God is a tyrant that demands your belief, even if it's not possible for you to believe in him. He doesn't care if you are kind and compassionate and empathetic to others; he only cares that you blindly acknowledge his existence.
It's funny, because God always reflects the identity of the bliever. In the case of Krane, apparently God isa sadistic tyrant that doesn't like people questioning him. Interesting.Last edited by TH3SHR3DD3R; 03-13-2011 at 06:33 AM.
ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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03-13-2011, 06:16 AM #109
'judge not...lest ye be judged yourself.'
'let he who is whithout sin cast the first stone.'
*yawn*; another christian not following the word of jesus.
how about some words from yahweh; "this is my son, who i am well pleased...(please torture and murder him and i will be even more pleased)!
"As sure as the world stands, you jf1 shall spend an eternity in Hell in eternal torment..."
jake24
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03-13-2011, 07:03 AM #110
Actually I think Christians are causing the earthquakes and floods, you've pissed off the gods who actually exist.
This being, the thunder gods and the um.....faultline Gods...yeah.
Or is Yahweh making a comeback with the latest string of disasters?
Id prefer locusts personally I could avoid them without trouble. But who am I to question which horrible disaster a God should unleash
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03-13-2011, 08:50 AM #111
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03-13-2011, 04:39 PM #112
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Your logic" and judgment are clouded by the Deceiver; without God it is impossible to be good for the two are synonymous. I'm sorry you can't see that. The earth is the earth. And all these things were foretold. Since it's all just fairy tales to you it shouldn't matter. And by the way, you misinterpreted that above passage as well.
🎥
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03-13-2011, 04:40 PM #113
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03-13-2011, 04:45 PM #114
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03-13-2011, 04:46 PM #115
Typical apologist bull****, lacking even the most remote bit of reason, logic, common sense, or brain activity level.
Basically, Christianity has attempted to co-opt goodness and compassion and love by claiming that these require belief in their God; a common religious tactic, but one that falls short nonetheless. The only true distinction between Christian thought and all other thought is that Christian thought exists solely to keep one from the fires of Hell; it has nothing to do with goodness, compassion or love. Christianity is exclusively a mechanism of fear and hatred.ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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03-13-2011, 04:47 PM #116
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Did he perform miracles and profess to be the Son of God? Is there a foretelling of his arrival works and future that dates back thousands of years? Does he have a following of millions and a two thousand year old history? Are his words good for reproof, correction and instruction in rightness? Is there a bible written about him? Did he sacrifice himself on the cross for our sins?
Many have claimed to be the savior (long before, during and after Christ) but only one was able to provide sufficient proof for his claims.🎥
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03-14-2011, 05:06 AM #117
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03-14-2011, 06:08 AM #118
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03-14-2011, 06:19 AM #119
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Interesting . . . a great many Christians disagree with you. They believe that there was no physical death before the fall. Every young earth creationist out there believes that there was no death before the fall. YEC's believe that the fall introduced both forms of death, physical and spiritual, to all the planet. So, if they YEC's are correct, God, killed the very first thing ever to die on earth. If you are correct, then God was the first "higher" (non-animal) being to kill an animal, as Genesis 1 clearly says that Adam and Eve did not eat meat.
I am not the one who is stupid or willfully ignorant. You should start looking inside your own Christian household."You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They'll race behind you. They will stumble; they will fall. But, in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." Jor-El
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Kris Gethin's Body By Design, pg. 43/44 (Yes, that s me)
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03-15-2011, 11:09 AM #120
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