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  1. #121
    10 30 10 shadar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Valenzuelatech View Post
    Just PM me whenever you want to edit the OP



    This is pretty interesting along with what you guys have posted.

    So generally casein in high doses due to it's coagulation in the gut may be difficult for the body to absorb and for the price, it offers no benefits beyond whey or a blend of whey+casein.
    Thanks, I will try to get a clump of edits at a time so as to make it a bit easier.

    I think the knowledge on casein and nutrient timing in general is evolving very quickly right now. Just a few years back more people would have been very keen on using casein at night. But more and more it's becoming apparent that you can achieve similar results using such a large number of variations in diet that the actual approach seems far less important than the daily caloric and macro goals. Intermittent fasting may be responsible for this shift in attitudes as it has kind of blown the doors off the old logic that you needed to constantly eat to fuel your muscles.



    Originally Posted by Valenzuelatech View Post
    Any threads on the best forms of vitamins & minerals?
    eg:
    Methylcobalamin>Cyanocobalamin
    Mineral Chelates>Oxides
    I've been trying to find a good thread on this myself. There are lots of posts covering a very tiny portion of the vits or minerals by people like Peter, Neopragmatist, in10city, and even I have a few... but none are all-inclusive. Likely because you could have an entire forum dedicated entirely to vitamins if you really wanted to dig that deeply.

    I'll see if I can't throw together a very simplified version for many of the most common vits/minerals and make a post on it to get feedback from others. If it turns out well we can link that here. But posts like Pinch's below are a good start for covering minerals.


    Originally Posted by PinchTheBear View Post
    Simplified briefly, just so it's here:
    • Relatively insoluble mineral oxides generally pass through the digestive system en masse (unchanged) and are excreted. Mineral oxides, however, are polar and can dissolve in gastric acid. The problem with absorption lies in the complicated and extensive in vivo requirements for efficient absorption.
    • Soluble mineral salts, once in the gut, can react with negatively charged ions and become insoluble (then excreted), can be absorbed through ion gated channels (e.g. divalent metal transporter, which transports iron along with other divalent, or 2+ charge, minerals: generally inefficient), or can be chelated by carrier proteins, then absorbed highly efficiently and non competitively.
    • Chelated minerals can be absorbed through the same transporters used for dipeptides and tripeptides like hydrolyzed whey; therefore, they are extremely efficient and not competitive for specific mineral chelates over others.
    • Real mineral chelates are bound by amino acids, specifically by the nitrogens and oxygens donating electrons to the metal. The chelator must be an amino acid, or the compound will behave like a salt (e.g. "Kreb's cycle chelates"), not offering any of the benefits of a real chelate.

    Reading:
    http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/25/18.html
    http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks..._minerals.html
    Nice post Btw, reading your articles now. At least one or two of them would make good links for this thread and I'm sure there will be plenty more which deserve links in the future. If you can think of any topics that should be linked here Andy either post em up or shoot me a PM to discuss them, always really value your insight.
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  2. #122
    Tachyphylaxis King PuZo's Avatar
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    Sorry, but I'm sure this has been discussed before, but in regards to the Will Brinks mixing video. I don't see how it being dissolved affects its bioavailability... Are you saying if I take a scoop of mono, throw it in my mouth and wash it down, it won't have the same effects as mixing it thoroughly and dissolving it? Wouldn't that mean it would have to bind the molecules to the water in order for you to absorb it? Kinda confused...
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  3. #123
    Registered User Mr.Cooper69's Avatar
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    Oral L-citrulline supplementation improves erection hardness in men with mild erectile dysfunction.
    Abstract
    OBJECTIVES: To test the efficacy and safety of oral L-citrulline supplementation in improving erection hardness in patients with mild erectile dysfunction (ED). L-arginine supplementation improves nitric oxide-mediated vasodilation and endothelial function; however, oral administration has been hampered by extensive presystemic metabolism. In contrast, L-citrulline escapes presystemic metabolism and is converted to L-arginine, thus setting the rationale for oral L-citrulline supplementation as a donor for the L-arginine/nitric oxide pathway of penile erection.

    METHODS: In the present single-blind study, men with mild ED (erection hardness score of 3) received a placebo for 1 month and L-citrulline, 1.5 g/d, for another month. The erection hardness score, number of intercourses per month, treatment satisfaction, and adverse events were recorded.

    RESULTS: A total of 24 patients, mean age 56.5 ± 9.8 years, were entered and concluded the study without adverse events. The improvement in the erection hardness score from 3 (mild ED) to 4 (normal erectile function) occurred in 2 (8.3%) of the 24 men when taking placebo and 12 (50%) of the 24 men when taking L-citrulline (P < .01). The mean number of intercourses per month increased from 1.37 ± 0.93 at baseline to 1.53 ± 1.00 at the end of the placebo phase (P = .57) and 2.3 ± 1.37 at the end of the treatment phase (P < .01). All patients reporting an erection hardness score improvement from 3 to 4 reported being very satisfied.

    CONCLUSIONS: Although less effective than phosphodiesterase type-5 enzyme inhibitors, at least in the short term, L-citrulline supplementation has been proved to be safe and psychologically well accepted by patients. Its role as an alternative treatment for mild to moderate ED, particularly in patients with a psychologically fear of phosphodiesterase type-5 enzyme inhibitors, deserves further research.
    PES

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  4. #124
    Registered User Mr.Cooper69's Avatar
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    Short-term effects of l-citrulline supplementation on arterial stiffness in middle-aged men.
    Ochiai M, Hayashi T, Morita M, Ina K, Maeda M, Watanabe F, Mori****a K.

    Healthcare Products Development Center, KYOWA HAKKO BIO CO., LTD., 2, Miyukigaoka, Tsukuba-shi, Ibaraki 305-0841, Japan.

    Abstract
    BACKGROUND: Nitric oxide (NO) plays a key role in the maintenance of vascular tone, contributing to the functional regulation of arterial stiffness. Although oral l-citrulline could become the effective precursor of l-arginine (substrate for endothelial NO synthase) via the l-citrulline/ l-arginine pathway, little is known about the efficacy of l-citrulline application on arterial stiffness.

    OBJECTIVE: We examined the short-term effects of l-citrulline supplementation on arterial stiffness in humans.

    METHODS: In a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled parallel-group trial, 15 healthy male subjects (age: 58.3±4.4years) with brachial-ankle pulse wave velocity (baPWV; index of arterial stiffness >1400cm/sec) were given 5.6g/day of l-citrulline (n=8) or placebo (n=7) for 7days. baPWV and various clinical parameters were measured before (baseline) and after oral supplementation of l-citrulline or placebo.

    RESULTS: Compared with the placebo group, baPWV was significantly reduced in the l-citrulline group (p<0.01). No significant differences in blood pressure (BP) were found between the two groups, and no correlation was observed between BP and baPWV. The serum nitrogen oxide (NOx, the sum of nitrite plus nitrate) and NO metabolic products were significantly increased only in the l-citrulline group (p<0.05). Plasma citrulline, arginine and the ratio of arginine/asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA), an endogenous inhibitor of NO synthase (arginine/ADMA ratio) were significantly increased in the l-citrulline group compared with the placebo group (p<0.05, p<0.01, p<0.05, respectively). Moreover, there was a correlation between the increase of plasma arginine and the reduction of baPWV (r=-0.553, p<0.05).

    CONCLUSION: These findings suggest that short-term l-citrulline supplementation may functionally improve arterial stiffness, independent of blood pressure, in humans.
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  5. #125
    Registered User Mr.Cooper69's Avatar
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    And finally...(I'm surprised scivation wasn't all over this one)

    L-citrulline-malate influence over branched chain amino acid utilization during exercise.
    Sureda A, Córdova A, Ferrer MD, Pérez G, Tur JA, Pons A.

    Departament de Biologia Fonamental i Ciències de la Salut, University of Balearic Islands, Palma de Mallorca, Illes Balears, Spain.

    Abstract
    Exhaustive exercise induces disturbances in metabolic homeostasis which can result in amino acid catabolism and limited L-arginine availability. Oral L-citrulline supplementation raises plasma L-arginine concentration and augments NO-dependent signalling. Our aim was to evaluate the effects of diet supplementation with L-citrulline-malate prior to intense exercise on the metabolic handle of plasma amino acids and on the products of metabolism of arginine as creatinine, urea and nitrite and the possible effects on the hormonal levels. Seventeen voluntary male pre-professional cyclists were randomly assigned to one of two groups: control or supplemented (6 g L-citrulline-malate 2 h prior exercise) and participated in a 137-km cycling stage. Blood samples were taken in basal conditions, 15 min after the race and 3 h post race (recovery). Most essential amino acids significantly decreased their plasma concentration as a result of exercise; however, most non-essential amino acids tended to significantly increase their concentration. Citrulline-malate ingestion significantly increased the plasma concentration of citrulline, arginine, ornithine, urea, creatinine and nitrite (p < 0.05) and significantly decreased the isoleucine concentration from basal measures to after exercise (p < 0.05). Insulin levels significantly increased after exercise in both groups (p < 0.05) returning to basal values at recovery. Growth hormone increased after exercise in both groups, although the increase was higher in the citrulline-malate supplemented group (p < 0.05). L-citrulline-malate supplementation can enhance the use of amino acids, especially the branched chain amino acids during exercise and also enhance the production of arginine-derived metabolites such as nitrite, creatinine, ornithine and urea.
    PES

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  6. #126
    hi Hyruliangoat's Avatar
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    Love this thread



    And pinch seriously motivates me to stay home and read lol srs
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  7. #127
    10 30 10 shadar's Avatar
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    Thanks Cooper. I'll figure out some way to get those linked. Perhaps the best method will be to actually create threads about specific topics with tons of info in them just to link to them from this thread? Kind of like NO HYPE's thread on arginine. Are there any good Citrulline threads in the science section? Those links good be added and we could link the whole thread if so.

    Also I'm just posting this here for now so I can remember later, this is a good thread on the various Carnitines that I started a while back: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121355501



    Originally Posted by PuZo View Post
    Sorry, but I'm sure this has been discussed before, but in regards to the Will Brinks mixing video. I don't see how it being dissolved affects its bioavailability... Are you saying if I take a scoop of mono, throw it in my mouth and wash it down, it won't have the same effects as mixing it thoroughly and dissolving it? Wouldn't that mean it would have to bind the molecules to the water in order for you to absorb it? Kinda confused...
    I think a lot of people are dubious about the video and to just how well that sort of method would work or how important it is. But I figured it'd be better to include it just in-case. I think most people can handle creatine just fine any which way they take it. But there may be some who have real trouble with creatine and that "may" help. *shrug*
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  8. #128
    2011 NPC Eastern USA's XCriticalBenchX's Avatar
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    Awesome thread! Good idea, glad to see they made it a sticky!

    Mike
    Team iForce Nutrition Representative & Competitive Bodybuilder


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  9. #129
    placebo doesnt effect me or_yourlivingtodie's Avatar
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    anything for norvaline?
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  10. #130
    SimplyShreddedTV Valenzuelatech's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PinchTheBear View Post
    Simplified briefly, just so it's here:
    • Relatively insoluble mineral oxides generally pass through the digestive system en masse (unchanged) and are excreted. Mineral oxides, however, are polar and can dissolve in gastric acid. The problem with absorption lies in the complicated and extensive in vivo requirements for efficient absorption.
    • Soluble mineral salts, once in the gut, can react with negatively charged ions and become insoluble (then excreted), can be absorbed through ion gated channels (e.g. divalent metal transporter, which transports iron along with other divalent, or 2+ charge, minerals: generally inefficient), or can be chelated by carrier proteins, then absorbed highly efficiently and non competitively.
    • Chelated minerals can be absorbed through the same transporters used for dipeptides and tripeptides like hydrolyzed whey; therefore, they are extremely efficient and not competitive for specific mineral chelates over others.
    • Real mineral chelates are bound by amino acids, specifically by the nitrogens and oxygens donating electrons to the metal. The chelator must be an amino acid, or the compound will behave like a salt (e.g. "Kreb's cycle chelates"), not offering any of the benefits of a real chelate.

    Reading:
    http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/25/18.html
    http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks..._minerals.html
    Thanks Andy, Reading these now --- you have a new PM!



    I'd like to see this topic brought up:
    Excipients and Fillers:
    What are the common Excipients and Fillers used in tablets, capsules & softgels and what effect do they have on absorption?
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  11. #131
    10 30 10 shadar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by or_yourlivingtodie View Post
    anything for norvaline?
    It would definitely be a good link to have. Same goes for Agmatine. Let me know if you find any!


    Originally Posted by Valenzuelatech View Post
    Thanks Andy, Reading these now --- you have a new PM!



    I'd like to see this topic brought up:
    Excipients and Fillers:
    What are the common Excipients and Fillers used in tablets, capsules & softgels and what effect do they have on absorption?
    Great idea, I really don't know enough about that either. Would love to hear discussion.

    I'm thinking people will have to start making threads about some of these topics that ned to be added here and hopefully we can get good discussion going so they can be linked.


    Originally Posted by XCriticalBenchX View Post
    Awesome thread! Good idea, glad to see they made it a sticky!

    Mike
    Thanks man. If you know of any good topics on contest prep or things of that nature they'd make good links as well. We're both into different aspects of working out, so not many of my links deal with the topics you're likely a lot more familiar with.

    Another topic that I thought of is fiber intake. I'll have to try to find a good thread on that as well.
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  12. #132
    ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ powercage's Avatar
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    Not sure if this has been posted or not..

    Recent study from the Strength and Conditioning Journal showing why it is not beneficial to perform cardio in a fasted state to lose weight. It in fact may be detrimental and lead to more lean muscle loss.

    http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Abs...ize_Fat.3.aspx
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  13. #133
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    Originally Posted by powercage View Post
    Not sure if this has been posted or not..

    Recent study from the Strength and Conditioning Journal showing why it is not beneficial to perform cardio in a fasted state to lose weight. It in fact may be detrimental and lead to more lean muscle loss.

    http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Abs...ize_Fat.3.aspx

    Crap u beat me to itol
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  14. #134
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    Hey Shadar what are your thoughts on Con-crete? Lately i've been using one scoop (5g) of Primaforce CreaForm and mixing it with my Xtend intra workout. On days i use a pre-workout i only use half a scoop of creatine because there is already some in the pre.

    But i'm running low on the CreaForm and was considering buying the Con-crete. Is it worth the switch or should i just stay using what i have.
    "Eat food, drink food, train hard...Repeat Often!!!"
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  15. #135
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    Originally Posted by JP83 View Post
    Hey Shadar what are your thoughts on Con-crete? Lately i've been using one scoop (5g) of Primaforce CreaForm and mixing it with my Xtend intra workout. On days i use a pre-workout i only use half a scoop of creatine because there is already some in the pre.

    But i'm running low on the CreaForm and was considering buying the Con-crete. Is it worth the switch or should i just stay using what i have.
    get creapure, cbol, trinitine, SNS MCC, or green mag...not concrete
    PES

    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES

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  16. #136
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    Originally Posted by Mr.Cooper69 View Post
    get creapure, cbol, trinitine, SNS MCC, or green mag...not concrete
    explination?
    "Eat food, drink food, train hard...Repeat Often!!!"
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  17. #137
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    Originally Posted by shadar View Post
    It would definitely be a good link to have. Same goes for Agmatine. Let me know if you find any!
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=34

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=21

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=24
    http://instagram.com/neurowiz
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  18. #138
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    Originally Posted by JP83 View Post
    explination?
    this question has been asked and re-asked, do some searching.
    PES

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  19. #139
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    Originally Posted by Mr.Cooper69 View Post
    this question has been asked and re-asked, do some searching.
    ok thanks shadar
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  20. #140
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    Originally Posted by JP83 View Post
    ok thanks shadar
    ...

    not sure as to the tone of that. if its joking, fine. but if you're being cynical...

    i gave you good advice. i directed you to the products you have to research. now just do a couple searches.
    PES

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  21. #141
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    Originally Posted by Mr.Cooper69 View Post
    ...

    not sure as to the tone of that. if its joking, fine. but if you're being cynical...

    i gave you good advice. i directed you to the products you have to research. now just do a couple searches.
    joking because my question was directed towards him. but thank you for the help. i looked up the creapure and it's quite more expensive than normal creatine. $30
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  22. #142
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    shadar, just noticed this made sticky good job man; you should be proud.
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  23. #143
    10 30 10 shadar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JP83 View Post
    Hey Shadar what are your thoughts on Con-crete? Lately i've been using one scoop (5g) of Primaforce CreaForm and mixing it with my Xtend intra workout. On days i use a pre-workout i only use half a scoop of creatine because there is already some in the pre.

    But i'm running low on the CreaForm and was considering buying the Con-crete. Is it worth the switch or should i just stay using what i have.
    Originally Posted by Mr.Cooper69 View Post
    get creapure, cbol, trinitine, SNS MCC, or green mag...not concrete
    ^^^ I agree with Cooper. I personally go for creapure myself when possible, though atm I got some ultra cheap regular creatine mono on sale and it seems fine. But otherwise I'd spend the money to get creapure to play it safe.

    It's generally only $2-5 more than regular mono. $30 seems excessive... it is much cheaper generally.


    Great links! Added it to my list. Will be compiling a list of changes and will post up the updated lists in two posts tonight or tomorrow with better formatting this time and I'm also adding some indication if the topic is positive or negative so people can tell at a glance.


    Originally Posted by powercage View Post
    Not sure if this has been posted or not..

    Recent study from the Strength and Conditioning Journal showing why it is not beneficial to perform cardio in a fasted state to lose weight. It in fact may be detrimental and lead to more lean muscle loss.

    http://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Abs...ize_Fat.3.aspx
    Thanks!


    Originally Posted by jquintinjr View Post
    shadar, just noticed this made sticky good job man; you should be proud.
    Thanks man, it's quite cool! Especially with all the help people are providing with links/etc to make it even better!
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  24. #144
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    Thumbs up

    This link beats all of Shadar's links.
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  25. #145
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    Originally Posted by Elliptical Envy View Post
    This link beats all of Shadar's links.
    Don't you mean this link beats all of Shadar's links?
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  26. #146
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    You win this round, Shadar.........
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  27. #147
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    Originally Posted by shadar View Post
    Supplement Links



    Creatine





    ****************************

    Will Brink's Creatine Mixing Video:

    Originally Posted by RugbyTank View Post
    This is wrong,

    Which is why i thought i was a non-responder to creatine and why alot of others might think so to(even though only a small % of the populace, kinda like how everyone whois fat or higher bf% assumes they have gyno)

    Mix creatine alone with water, creatine needs to bind with water for it to be used in your body otherwise it will pass through your body.

    If you mix in with other things such as protein + carbs it will be useless and pass thru.

    1. mix with warmer water
    2. mix for as long as you think i go 30 secs
    3. it will never dissolve completely , so before i reach around the 20% of finishing the drink i add more water until 50% and start mixing again.
    Optional
    4. Add a type of sugar to carry the creatine faster and let it absorb better, supposedly dextrose is best. I have it but i rarely add it because i dont like adding any type of sugar to my diet and i dont really care about maximum absorbtion.
    5. I personally like to wait 1-5 mins before i make my PWO after creatine.

    Originally Posted by shadar View Post
    This is so incredibly full of fail it isn't funny. 99% of people need not worry about anything. Perhaps you have major issues with creatine, but that doesn't apply to most people.





    Enjoy pissing out 7-12 grams of creatine a day?
    Dude nice video, have you seen it?
    Seek truth and reason
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  28. #148
    10 30 10 shadar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RugbyTank View Post
    Dude nice video, have you seen it?
    You said the guy was wrong for telling people to not over-think creatine and to just mix it into their post workout shake.

    You then went on to say if you mix it with protein or carbs it will pass through your body.

    Etc.

    That simply isn't true. So I told you 99% of people need not worry about anything. And that perhaps you have issues with creatine, but not everyone does. I stand by that completely.


    This will be the only response you get in this thread as I don't wish to clutter an otherwise very informative thread with your drama. If you have an issue with me, PM me.
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  29. #149
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    Is this the Creapure your talking about?

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/in...nohydrate.html
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  30. #150
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    Originally Posted by JP83 View Post
    Is this the Creapure your talking about?

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/in...nohydrate.html
    Waaay overpriced. Look at Allmax.
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