Lift, whey then liss, counterproductive?

[pperry]

I was formally hitting the gym five days per week, m-w-f weight training, Tuesday Thursday long liss and lots of dynamic stretching (a habit, former competative martial artist)

due to a new work schedule I cannot make it to the gym on Tuesday or Thursday, it will be closed when I finish work and I can't workout prior as my work suffers.

This has led me to doing my liss on my weight training days, I'm confused though, when should I take my whey and fast digesting carbs?

I usually drink it immediately after my last rep, down in one. But to my knowledge this will knock me out of ketosis for an hour or two, if I then do my cardio I assume I'm no longer burning fat? I know I will still be burning calories but from where?

I can't really consume the same amount of whey and carbs after the cardio, it will be over an hour since my last rep.

Some help from advanced ketoers would be appreciated, I can't find any relevant information.

Thanks in advance

[rusrious]

No bro, at then end of the workout, due to keto, your anabolic, which means, your muscles will eat up the carbs instantly. You shouldnt be kicked out of keto, unless your workout was weak, or your not even in ketosis to begin with. You should be fine. I consume 40g dextrose during and after workouts, never kicked.

Good luck

JMO

added this,

Also, depends on your TYPE of carbs. If your going to consume carbs for energy at the gym, then that should be eatin 45min to an hour BEfore workout, the carbs AFTER workout, should be simple sugars, or hi GI, like grape juice or dextrose.

[Adonisanemone]

why not just eat a little less for 6 days (Sunday - Sat) instead of forcing in 2 cardio sessions. I don't know how much the treadmill says you burn, but you could keep a 900 cal/weekly deficit by just cutting 17gs of fat from your daily diet.

[pperry]

I would prefer have a small deficit + cardio, even at low intensities it has many health benefits.

I'm still stumped, as soon as I spike my insulin with my shake I'm no longer in a fat burning mode, insulin is fir storage, so does that make my cardio pointless?

I really can't wait till post cardio for my shake, it would be pointless having it

[Atavis]

I would prefer have a small deficit + cardio, even at low intensities it has many health benefits.

I'm still stumped, as soon as I spike my insulin with my shake I'm no longer in a fat burning mode, insulin is fir storage, so does that make my cardio pointless?

I really can't wait till post cardio for my shake, it would be pointless having it

Take it at the end of your workout including cardio.

Fat burning mode is bullsh!t. So don't worry about it.

The cardio is not pointless even if you take the whey before hand. You are creating a bigger calorie deficit and as you said, there are other health benefits.

[pperry]

Atavis to the rescue

[rcb0424]

I was formally hitting the gym five days per week, m-w-f weight training, Tuesday Thursday long liss and lots of dynamic stretching (a habit, former competative martial artist)

due to a new work schedule I cannot make it to the gym on Tuesday or Thursday, it will be closed when I finish work and I can't workout prior as my work suffers.

This has led me to doing my liss on my weight training days, I'm confused though, when should I take my whey and fast digesting carbs?

I usually drink it immediately after my last rep, down in one. But to my knowledge this will knock me out of ketosis for an hour or two, if I then do my cardio I assume I'm no longer burning fat? I know I will still be burning calories but from where?

I can't really consume the same amount of whey and carbs after the cardio, it will be over an hour since my last rep.

Some help from advanced ketoers would be appreciated, I can't find any relevant information.

Thanks in advance

From what I've read, it is best to wait until after the cardio. If you drink it after your lifting, your body will go into storage mode, wanting to store the whey in your muscles while performing the cardio. That storage mode would theoretically make your cardio session not an optiimal fat burning session because instead of being in fat burning mode you are in storage mode. I actually just ran across this in another thread somewhere. I'm not an expert though, but in my opinion it's beset to wait until after it all then drink the whey. I don't think it'd hurt too much to do it before the cardio but I think to maximize fat loss/calories burned during the cardio you would want to wait until after.

I think its more a concern of going into storage mode then going out of fat burning mode.

I do think you want the whey to get in your muscles with-in an hour after lifting though, so maybe cutting the cardio to 45 minutes would be optimal instead of a full hour, or just getting it in right after cardio. Just my 2 cents.

[zstanton]

I was formally hitting the gym five days per week, m-w-f weight training, Tuesday Thursday long liss and lots of dynamic stretching (a habit, former competative martial artist)

due to a new work schedule I cannot make it to the gym on Tuesday or Thursday, it will be closed when I finish work and I can't workout prior as my work suffers.

This has led me to doing my liss on my weight training days, I'm confused though, when should I take my whey and fast digesting carbs?

I usually drink it immediately after my last rep, down in one. But to my knowledge this will knock me out of ketosis for an hour or two, if I then do my cardio I assume I'm no longer burning fat? I know I will still be burning calories but from where?

I can't really consume the same amount of whey and carbs after the cardio, it will be over an hour since my last rep.

Some help from advanced ketoers would be appreciated, I can't find any relevant information.

Thanks in advance

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=131821473

take a gander at that

nutrient timing in itself had no benefits beyond individual differences in performance due to said timing

aka anabolic window is bull ****

also whey is unnecessary whole foods = better

[Ransom17]

No bro, at then end of the workout, due to keto, your anabolic, which means, your muscles will eat up the carbs instantly. You shouldnt be kicked out of keto, unless your workout was weak, or your not even in ketosis to begin with. You should be fine. I consume 40g dextrose during and after workouts, never kicked.

Good luck

JMO

added this,

Also, depends on your TYPE of carbs. If your going to consume carbs for energy at the gym, then that should be eatin 45min to an hour BEfore workout, the carbs AFTER workout, should be simple sugars, or hi GI, like grape juice or dextrose.

Strong broscience here, though I don't think he's wrong. You might be transiently kicked out of ketosis but most likely your carbs will go to replenishing muscle glycogen. There is nothing wrong with LISS after a workout but I'd be inclined to ask why. Are you trying to lose weight?. You can create a calorie deficit with diet, so the cardio is really only adding to that. Why not do 1-2 LISS sessions a week first thing in the morning? You don't need to be in the gym to go for a walk (perhaps you do?)

[alexl53]

There is nothing wrong with LISS after a workout but I'd be inclined to ask why. Are you trying to lose weight?. You can create a calorie deficit with diet, so the cardio is really only adding to that.

That's true, but there's a difference between cutting by simply dropping cals versus cutting with an increased amount of exercise and slightly more cals than just dropping cals alone. With the increased exercise, you'll be using more muscle, revving up metabolism, and burning more calories total. Upping the cals slightly will just provide the body with the extra energy for the increased amount of exercise. This is the concept explained in "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle" by Mark Venuto.

He explains that it's like driving 10mph to someplace versus driving 50mph. You can get to your goal by just cutting cals along (driving 10mph), but if you exercise a lot and use cardio post-wo to burn extra fat, and just eat a little more, you'll get to your goal much faster.

[zstanton]

That's true, but there's a difference between cutting by simply dropping cals versus cutting with an increased amount of exercise and slightly more cals than just dropping cals alone. With the increased exercise, you'll be using more muscle, revving up metabolism, and burning more calories total. Upping the cals slightly will just provide the body with the extra energy for the increased amount of exercise. This is the concept explained in "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle" by Mark Venuto.

He explains that it's like driving 10mph to someplace versus driving 50mph. You can get to your goal by just cutting cals along (driving 10mph), but if you exercise a lot and use cardio post-wo to burn extra fat, and just eat a little more, you'll get to your goal much faster.

calorie deficit is a calorie deficit

whether ur burning 2500 a day and eating 2000
or burning 3000 a day (with extra cardio) and eating 2500 u lose the same

[pperry]

I'm just cutting fat slowly for summer, as I've said I would prefer a small deficit + cardio for the health benefits, what's the point in looking great if I'm falling apart inside?

I'm going to go with atavis on this, his advice helped me a lot when bulking, I went from a lean 66kg to a still pretty lean 73kg

[alexl53]

calorie deficit is a calorie deficit

whether ur burning 2500 a day and eating 2000
or burning 3000 a day (with extra cardio) and eating 2500 u lose the same

You're wrong...

Cals in vs cals out has been proven wrong in literature and it's just broscience. If you wan't to read up, check out "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. I would bet you a million dollars I'd lose more fat by doing more exercise and eating more cals compared to just eating less cals.

The second option SLOWS metabolism. You cut cals and your metabolism is going to go down accordingly. It's the body's natural response. If you up exercise, your metabolism will stay more elevated. It's common sense, but also scientifically valid as well, which the law of thermodynamics is not in the spectrum of human physiology & metabolism.

[alexl53]

Yea go with the whey after the cardio is what I would recommend too. It would be pointless to have it before since it would up your insulin levels and then limit the fat burning. Milk proteins cause an elevated insulin response, albeit a relatively short one.

[zstanton]

You're wrong...

Cals in vs cals out has been proven wrong in literature and it's just broscience. If you wan't to read up, check out "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. I would bet you a million dollars I'd lose more fat by doing more exercise and eating more cals compared to just eating less cals.

The second option SLOWS metabolism. You cut cals and your metabolism is going to go down accordingly. It's the body's natural response. If you up exercise, your metabolism will stay more elevated. It's common sense, but also scientifically valid as well, which the law of thermodynamics is not in the spectrum of human physiology & metabolism.

no i'm not wrong, i didnt say that eating less wouldn't slow your metabolism. i said that at an equal deficit weight loss would be the same, as long as calories are lowered to match the slowing metabolism, (what body builders do on pre-contest cuts) they maintain the same deficit, cals in vs. cals out IS NOT broscience. negged for faulty information

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=110846041
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2053723&page=6
clance through that too

[alexl53]

no i'm not wrong, i didnt say that eating less wouldn't slow your metabolism. i said that at an equal deficit weight loss would be the same, as long as calories are lowered to match the slowing metabolism, (what body builders do on pre-contest cuts) they maintain the same deficit, cals in vs. cals out IS NOT broscience. negged for faulty information

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=110846041
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2053723&page=6
clance through that too

Nice I'll neg you back, bro.

It is broscience, but whatever. Keep drinking the kool-aid

Weight loss would be the same, theoretically, but the kind of weight could potentially be different. I won't get into the nitty-gritty, but feel free to read this for a more detailed explanation:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/m...d-weight-loss/

Essentially what that post says is that the cals out portion depends on the macro and how efficient your body gets the cals out of the food. If you ingest 100 cals of carbs, the amount on the "out" end is going to be different than if you ingested 100 cals of protein or fat. Your body metabolizes all 3 in separate ways, so the law of thermodynamics can't be applied to every meal. A 100% carb diet is going hold very different results from one of a different mix of macros, even at the exact same calorie amount.

[zstanton]

Nice I'll neg you back, bro.

It is broscience, but whatever. Keep drinking the kool-aid

Weight loss would be the same, theoretically, but the kind of weight could potentially be different. I won't get into the nitty-gritty, but feel free to read this for a more detailed explanation:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/m...d-weight-loss/

Essentially what that post says is that the cals out portion depends on the macro and how efficient your body gets the cals out of the food. If you ingest 100 cals of carbs, the amount on the "out" end is going to be different than if you ingested 100 cals of protein or fat. Your body metabolizes all 3 in separate ways, so the law of thermodynamics can't be applied to every meal. A 100% carb diet is going hold very different results from one of a different mix of macros, even at the exact same calorie amount.

differences in WEIGHT GAIN OR LOSS is calories in calories out, the differences in body composition depend on macro and micronutrient sufficiency.
in above scenario I would assume minimum protein and fats are in check and at that point it comes down to how many calories are expended and how many are consumed.

the thing is we don't KNOW EXACTLY how many calories we take in or put out in a day, its variable
but we were not debating diet composition at all, we were debating if slightly increased eating +cardio would be different than decreased calories alone.

and unless you show me EMPIRICAL evidence otherwise (not some guy talking out of his ass) then my argument stands

[Adonisanemone]

You're wrong...

Cals in vs cals out has been proven wrong in literature and it's just broscience. If you wan't to read up, check out "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. I would bet you a million dollars I'd lose more fat by doing more exercise and eating more cals compared to just eating less cals.

The second option SLOWS metabolism. You cut cals and your metabolism is going to go down accordingly. It's the body's natural response. If you up exercise, your metabolism will stay more elevated. It's common sense, but also scientifically valid as well, which the law of thermodynamics is not in the spectrum of human physiology & metabolism.

I'll look at the reference later, but cliff notes on my confusion...

Cals in : Food
Cals out : every calories as a result of metabolic expenditure do to walking, sitting, healing, sh*ting, boosting my metabolism through drug or exercise, burning food consumed, mobilizing fat store, being in a coma, EPOC, all in all just keeping my ass alive.

But what your saying is that you can burn more calories than you actually burn? If I eat 1500 calories and my body uses 1800 calories for every metabolic function it has, I could still break even? My cals in/out idea accounts for boosted/depressed metabolism, as they affect cals out.

[Black_Spit]

Why do people want to make this so complicated?

Yes, if you take in fewer calories than you use, you lose weight.

There are many factors (such as activity level, age, sex, thyroid, leptin, insulin to name a very few) that impact how many calories you use. Different diets address these aspects with varying success.

This is not hard stuff.

[Black_Spit]

OP, Atavis already nailed it as usual.

Have you tried alternatives to LISS like running stadium stairs or hills? Or heavy bag workouts? I even like football style mobility/agility drills. I've always hated cardio, so I'm biased, but it just seems like such a waste for a young, athletic person to walk in place for 30 minutes when you could improve your strength/explosiveness/athletic-ness (sorry for made up word there), all the while preserving a small portion of what little glycogen you have available doing anaerobic GPP/HIIT or whatever you want to call it.

[pperry]

Atavis and blak spit I'd rep you both but it says I have to spread the love. Thanks guys.