Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[neddo]

so im thinking of starting IF.

Can anyone link or write a training routine here? I see many say that u should go low rep but I never done it before and would appreciate some help.

Just lift heavy. PHAT is what I stick with, or 5/3/1 or DC.

It's no more than 15% of postabsorptive hepatic glucose, but prolonged fasting will lead to nitrogen depletion(which might be not important on this topic). It's not much if you fast 16hours, but when you do that everyday for two months and you're eating ~400kcal below maintenance you will notice it, so in my opinion it's not a best way to loose fat, when you want to keep as much muscle as possible, but it's the most effective if you want to just loose fat. Also I'm not familiar with this scientifically, but I notice that some people tend to use more amino acids for gluconeogenesis in postabsorptive state then others..
What I don't understand is why people use IF for bulking, Norton already proved several times that eating 5 meals a day is superior to lower frequency in terms of protein synthesis. And bulking is all about increasing muscle mass isn't it? ... I'm not trying to be the one who says 6 times a day is a must, I don't stress about it, but I wouldn't fast during bulking.

You don't need to know my diet breakdown, because I don't need any help with it. I said my degree because I thought you will be more likely to discuss with me than just show off.

More times then not, somebody who touts their degree when not asked for it are the ones 'showing off'. And frankly, what course(s) did you take that set you up for optimal lipolysis/maximal strength retention?

And IF bulking had nothing to do with your OP, so I'll disregard that in its entirety; but where do you get off labeling this 16hour fast over the course of 2 months leading to more nitrogen imbalances than not? You stated you had been learning "complex metabolic pathways" over the last 2 years or something of the sort originally, yet you claim "I'm not familiar with this scientifically".

Then why are you giving advice as you believe is based in fact?

[Jyang486]

I'm planning on starting IF. I have quick question, that may lead to other quick questions, before I start though.

I know it says if you're window of eating is, say 1 PM to 9 PM, then don't eat anything during the fast. But usually first thing I do in the morning is make myself a shake consisting of whey protein, greens plus, milled flax seed (or psyllium husk powder), and black coffee. I usually take this to help down my morning supplements of 2 Optimen multi-vs, 1 500 mg vitamin c tablet, 1 300 mg ALA capsule, 1 garlicin capsule, and 2 fish oil capsules.

Is it okay if I continue to take this shake first thing in the morning, but without the whey protein powder? Sip on the shake of greens plus, milled flax seed, and black coffee? Or are the carbs in the greens plus/milled flax seed enough to offset the fast?

Thanks.

[Dannybee123]

I'm planning on starting IF. I have quick question, that may lead to other quick questions, before I start though.

I know it says if you're window of eating is, say 1 PM to 9 PM, then don't eat anything during the fast. But usually first thing I do in the morning is make myself a shake consisting of whey protein, greens plus, milled flax seed (or psyllium husk powder), and black coffee. I usually take this to help down my morning supplements of 2 Optimen multi-vs, 1 500 mg vitamin c tablet, 1 300 mg ALA capsule, 1 garlicin capsule, and 2 fish oil capsules.

Is it okay if I continue to take this shake first thing in the morning, but without the whey protein powder? Sip on the shake of greens plus, milled flax seed, and black coffee? Or are the carbs in the greens plus/milled flax seed enough to offset the fast?

Thanks.

Just have this shake when you break your fast, rather than for 'breakfast'...

[tnthudson]

Just have this shake when you break your fast, rather than for 'breakfast'...

^^^^ This.
If you read through the leangains site, Martin is pretty particular about having anything of caloric value until you're ready to begin your feeding window, other than BCAA's if you workout fasted.

[mrdot]

I really want to try IF for the rest of my cut, but I'm really confused about the macros. Are high carbs/moderate protein/low fat needed? or could I get away with doing a keto/tkd like diet with IF?

My body responds the best to low carb diets, so would it be fine?

[determined4000]

any macro preference is fine assuming minimums are met

[Jyang486]

Okay thanks, so I'll just take the morning supps with green tea or coffee.

And to bandwagon on the person asking about tkd and IF, is it okay if a significant amount of my carb intake is psyllium husk? Like I'll eat starchy carbs peri workout like a cup of whole wheat pasta, but during the other meals is it okay to take psyllium husk as my carbs? Thanks again.

[neddo]

Psyllium husk is essentially fiber, if I'm not mistaken -- thus it carries no nutrient value. Also, if you overload fiber -- you will not appreciate your porcelain throne visits.

Your carb source, while variably unimportant in the grand scheme of body composition, should come from vegetable or whole grain sources preferably.

[Jyang486]

Psyllium husk is essentially fiber, if I'm not mistaken -- thus it carries no nutrient value. Also, if you overload fiber -- you will not appreciate your porcelain throne visits.

Your carb source, while variably unimportant in the grand scheme of body composition, should come from vegetable or whole grain sources preferably.

I see, thanks. But since TKD is about carbing up before and after workouts, getting pretty much all our daily carb intake in during those times, how would I maintain a ketosis diet with IF if I don't consume carbs that are heavily comprised of fiber? I plugged in my numbers and it says at 75 kilograms I need to consume 54 grams of carbs a day. With that kind of allotment, I have to choose either a whole wheat grain source or a starchy vegetable source, but not both for my peri workout meals. If I were to go with either sources, I would be severely lacking in the fiber department. Since IF calls for carbs for much of the day on workout days, is it not okay to just have psyllium husk or milled flax seed as my non workout carbs? I remember doing a ketosis diet before, and without psyllium husk, there's no way I could have continued because the bathroom visits were brutal, i.e. took forever. Or I could just be completely off in my thinking.

[mrdot]

is it fine if you eat 4 or 5 medium sized meals in the 8 hour window if it fits in your macros? or does having 1 huge meal really make that much of a difference?

[neddo]

I see, thanks. But since TKD is about carbing up before and after workouts, getting pretty much all our daily carb intake in during those times, how would I maintain a ketosis diet with IF if I don't consume carbs that are heavily comprised of fiber? I plugged in my numbers and it says at 75 kilograms I need to consume 54 grams of carbs a day. With that kind of allotment, I have to choose either a whole wheat grain source or a starchy vegetable source, but not both for my peri workout meals. If I were to go with either sources, I would be severely lacking in the fiber department. Since IF calls for carbs for much of the day on workout days, is it not okay to just have psyllium husk or milled flax seed as my non workout carbs? I remember doing a ketosis diet before, and without psyllium husk, there's no way I could have continued because the bathroom visits were brutal, i.e. took forever. Or I could just be completely off in my thinking.

Wait, so you're cutting at 75kg and only eating 54g CHO? Eat your body weight in protein, .3-.5 times your body weight for fat, and the rest in carbs @ 500 kcals under maintenance. I'm assuming you used the Leangains calculator everybody else has mentioned? Anyways, such is your choice. Back to the psyllium husk.

Understand simply this: psyllium husk is a fiber supplement and relatively nothing more in terms of dietary means and resultant energy (kcals); however, it is certainly needed during a heavy carb limitation as you've described. Shoot for 30g+ of fiber per day, and take in your 54g carbs whenever you feel necessary whether it pre workout (if your window extends through your lift) or after.

What makes you want to run a ketosis diet, again?

is it fine if you eat 4 or 5 medium sized meals in the 8 hour window if it fits in your macros? or does having 1 huge meal really make that much of a difference?

Whatever works for you to allow you to reach your kcal and macronutrient intake.

[zsfoster]

I've poured over the LeanGains website, but I can't seem to find any specifics on macros/calorie intake for a cut. Am I missing something here?

I'm currently cutting down after bulking to 170 lb, but I plan on giving IF a try. Height is 5'11" and weight is currently 167 lbs (2 weeks in on cut).

I found this site: rippedbody.jp/2011/10/23/how-to-calculate-leangains-macros/
but I'm wondering how accurate the information is.

Based on the cutting plan from this site, my diet would look like this:

Training Days:
3200 Cal (10% Surplus)
210 g Protein
50g Fat
470g Carb

Rest Days:
2000 Cal (~30% Deficit)
210g Protein
95g Fat
70g Carb

Does this seem right? I appreciate any help in advance.

[determined4000]

I've poured over the LeanGains website, but I can't seem to find any specifics on macros/calorie intake for a cut. Am I missing something here?

I'm currently cutting down after bulking to 170 lb, but I plan on giving IF a try. Height is 5'11" and weight is currently 167 lbs (2 weeks in on cut).

I found this site: rippedbody.jp/2011/10/23/how-to-calculate-leangains-macros/
but I'm wondering how accurate the information is.

Based on the cutting plan from this site, my diet would look like this:

Training Days:
3200 Cal (10% Surplus)
210 g Protein
50g Fat
470g Carb

Rest Days:
2000 Cal (~30% Deficit)
210g Protein
95g Fat
70g Carb

Does this seem right? I appreciate any help in advance.

I would not recommend cycling calories thtatm uch.
If anything maintenance on lifting days and 15% deficit on off days (at you BF a hard cut would result in too much muscle loss)

[zsfoster]

I was wondering haha. It seemed like a huge swing between training days and rest days. I was perusing earlier posts in the thread and stumbled upon this:

ww.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Its setup seems a lot better. Any opinions on it?

[determined4000]

I was wondering haha. It seemed like a huge swing between training days and rest days. I was perusing earlier posts in the thread and stumbled upon this:

ww.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Its setup seems a lot better. Any opinions on it?

yes
stop using these cacluators

[zsfoster]

yes
stop using these cacluators

Noted. I'm not after the macro percentages or anything, I know what works for me. I meant in terms of the percentages for excess/defecit. I'm going to stick closer to 15% defecit/maintence for now, but I plan on doing a nice slow bulk after this.

[Jyang486]

Wait, so you're cutting at 75kg and only eating 54g CHO? Eat your body weight in protein, .3-.5 times your body weight for fat, and the rest in carbs @ 500 kcals under maintenance. I'm assuming you used the Leangains calculator everybody else has mentioned? Anyways, such is your choice. Back to the psyllium husk.

Understand simply this: psyllium husk is a fiber supplement and relatively nothing more in terms of dietary means and resultant energy (kcals); however, it is certainly needed during a heavy carb limitation as you've described. Shoot for 30g+ of fiber per day, and take in your 54g carbs whenever you feel necessary whether it pre workout (if your window extends through your lift) or after.

What makes you want to run a ketosis diet, again?

I did the ketosis thing over the summer in July, and got really good results from it. Then too much drinking and letting myself go over the summer and early fall months resulted in losing all my progress. After getting back into the grind for the past few months, I leaned up a lot. I'm trying to cut again by January when I plan on going on vacation to the Philippines, so I need to drop some unwanted fat quick. I can see my abs when I flex, but it's a very slim layer of unwanted fat I want to get rid of by January. So I think a combo of TKD and IF would help me get there in that one and half month window. I've lost maybe 5 kg in the past two months, but much of it was fat as I have been doing a consistent 4x a week lifting program.

Thanks for the advice, I'll shoot for the 30+ grams of fiber, 54g of carbs, and body weight in protein.

[Dannybee123]

yes
stop using these cacluators

What's your beef with the calculators? Just curious...

[Verint]

What's your beef with the calculators? Just curious...

Because the numbers these calculators give out wont work for everyone, they are not completely correct and they don't take everything in an individual into consideration.
The best way to determine your maintenance or how many calories you need to bulk/cut is through trial and error.

[zsfoster]

The best way to determine your maintenance or how many calories you need to bulk/cut is through trial and error.

I know my maintenance from experimenting with different intakes, I was just after the general setup, ie. what percent defecit/excess to use on rest/training days.

[jimsmith9999]

I know my maintenance from experimenting with different intakes, I was just after the general setup, ie. what percent defecit/excess to use on rest/training days.

From reading posts and logs from Martins clients, I know that for fat loss, he uses (or used) very moderate calorie swings between high and low calories days. I also know that he doesn't use consistent macros between the two. Most stuff implies that he keeps carbs relatively low, even on training days, and that he has people carb up when feeling depleted. No one ever posts actual calories or macros as that is against his terms, but based on some food logs, a 300-500 calorie swing between high days and low days seemed common.

That said, if you know what works for you, you should stick with that. Use the macros and calories that work, and change your meal timing to suit IF.

And this quote from the Leangains guide is why you find no calorie or macro recommendations on his site.

Commentators often ask me if this or that is fine or how they should optimize things. I simply don't have time or energy for that any longer. Understand that a lot of factors need to be taken into consideration when determining calorie intake and macronutrient cycling; body weight, body fat, activity level, training routine, gender, insulin sensitivity and so forth. That's why I have clients - optimizing a diet plan requires time and reflection, and being a perfectionist by nature I simply can't "okay" something without having all the facts in front of me.

Also - if you want to see some information about how Martin did fat loss for a client back in 2008 - search for posts on BB.com from user leroysaces. He was a client of Martins, and put up some details that are not in the guide.

[tnthudson]

I know my maintenance from experimenting with different intakes, I was just after the general setup, ie. what percent defecit/excess to use on rest/training days.

I have read rippedbody's site and have used the 1%edge calc. and I did it for the same reason...basically to better understand the general setup and have a starting point. I will say that for most calculators (even the well-known ones for determining lean mass, body fat, etc.) it seems that most people overestimate their activity level and therefore overestimate their calorie needs, from what I've read on forums and from trainers. I used this as a starting point and I'll adjust as I go along.

[zsfoster]

Thanks for the help, all!

[Dannybee123]

I've the 1%age calculator to obtain a 'starting point' - depending on my progress I will tweak.

Interesting point about the 300 - 500 calorie swing between high and low days, my swing is current about 750 calories - but then my goal is not fat loss, more muscle gain.

[jimsmith9999]

I've the 1%age calculator to obtain a 'starting point' - depending on my progress I will tweak.

Interesting point about the 300 - 500 calorie swing between high and low days, my swing is current about 750 calories - but then my goal is not fat loss, more muscle gain.

Martin has said that he uses much less dramatic calorie swings that what he sees people doing online. I am also pretty sure (also based on things I've read from him shortly before he went crazy) that the leangains guide and what a lot of people are doing is closer to what he was doing in 2008, and that he refined the process a lot, relying a lot less on big calorie/macro swings.

He also has people do a boatlaod of fasted very low intensity cardio for fat loss - like walking on a treadmill for an hour a day, 7 days/week.

[Dannybee123]

Martin has said that he uses much less dramatic calorie swings that what he sees people doing online. I am also pretty sure (also based on things I've read from him shortly before he went crazy) that the leangains guide and what a lot of people are doing is closer to what he was doing in 2008, and that he refined the process a lot, relying a lot less on big calorie/macro swings.

He also has people do a boatlaod of fasted very low intensity cardio for fat loss - like walking on a treadmill for an hour a day, 7 days/week.

He went crazzzzy??!

[Archanic]

I have done IFing before, loved it. Starting again using a preworkout meal some days instead of all fasted training all the time because of my schedule.

I have a question I am sure has been asked but would love for someone to clear up for me.

What do you guys do about drinking/going out, because when drinking its obvious that we will be outside of our meal window and consuming calories from the alcohol, I guess what I am saying is does it impact your window the next day? Say your normal window is 11am-7pm but you go out and have drinks till 2-3am, your fast is closer to 8 hours than 16, cutting it in half. Dont worry I dont drink that often, just something I was thinking about, probably over thinking.

reps

[determined4000]

I have done IFing before, loved it. Starting again using a preworkout meal some days instead of all fasted training all the time because of my schedule.

I have a question I am sure has been asked but would love for someone to clear up for me.

What do you guys do about drinking/going out, because when drinking its obvious that we will be outside of our meal window and consuming calories from the alcohol, I guess what I am saying is does it impact your window the next day? Say your normal window is 11am-7pm but you go out and have drinks till 2-3am, your fast is closer to 8 hours than 16, cutting it in half. Dont worry I dont drink that often, just something I was thinking about, probably over thinking.

reps

if you dont do it that often then just ditch IF for that day
There are days like last week for thanksgiving where my window was much larger and not normal
I woke up the following day and was still alive and well

[mrdot]

Can coke zero/green tea effect IF in any way? I've been having at least 10 cans of coke zero and a ton of green tea during my fast.

[Brokmeister]

without calories, its not going to have much if any effect on if, but i would worry about preservatives and such from the coke.