Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[tygeruppercut]

Would Xtend satisfy the 10g of BCAA?

[PBateman2]

Would Xtend satisfy the 10g of BCAA?

Yup!

[tygeruppercut]

Yup!

cool. i've read through the leangeans website and i didn't see anything stating how many calories should be consumed or macronutrients and such? Do we still take in maintenance calories or do we still reduce calories by 10~20%?

[kels_88]

cool. i've read through the leangeans website and i didn't see anything stating how many calories should be consumed or macronutrients and such? Do we still take in maintenance calories or do we still reduce calories by 10~20%?

Establish what you feel you should do for your body/height/weight. Then he recommends high fat/low carb/high protein on off days eating at maintenance -20% (depending on goals) and high carb/low fat/high protein on training days eating at maintenance +20% (depending on goals/training schedule (if you train 3 days a week and follow this protocol, you'll end up with a 20% deficit for one days worth of calories, cut more calories if you're cutting)

Macronutrients should follow the format of:
1-1.5 g/ protein per pound of lean body mass
.35-.5 g/fat per pound of lean body fat
fill the rest of your calorie goals in with carbs keeping what was said above in mind.

[Jezzah]

I've only read about IF in the last week or so but It has me really interested and I'm going to start it because it fits so perfectly into my lifestyle, work schedule etc...
I've read the leangains website alot and have an understanding of most of the things now, I'm just a little unsure of whether my eating schedule will be ok. I'm about 18%bf and my main aim is too lower my bodyfat% with maintaining what muscle I have, any strength/muscle gains will be a bonus. Below this is what I'm doing:

9.30am - Break the fast, First meal (25% cal).
12.30pm - Second meal (25% cal).
3.30pm-4.30pm - Training
4.30pm-5.30pm - Third meal (50% cal) and start fast at 5.30pm.

Beacause of my job this is the best schedule I could come up with. I'm just a little worried that my second meal, which is my Pre-workout meal, is too early before training. Maybe I should have a scoop of whey about 3pm before training?

[.aeterna]

I've only read about IF in the last week or so but It has me really interested and I'm going to start it because it fits so perfectly into my lifestyle, work schedule etc...
I've read the leangains website alot and have an understanding of most of the things now, I'm just a little unsure of whether my eating schedule will be ok. I'm about 18%bf and my main aim is too lower my bodyfat% with maintaining what muscle I have, any strength/muscle gains will be a bonus. Below this is what I'm doing:

9.30am - Break the fast, First meal (25% cal).
12.30pm - Second meal (25% cal).
3.30pm-4.30pm - Training
4.30pm-5.30pm - Third meal (50% cal) and start fast at 5.30pm.

Beacause of my job this is the best schedule I could come up with. I'm just a little worried that my second meal, which is my Pre-workout meal, is too early before training. Maybe I should have a scoop of whey about 3pm before training?

over thinking things, it doesnt matter what ur timing is during ur feed period- just get it done

[Martin Berkhan]

I re-read leangains.com for you:

















Summary:
If you do cardio go for low intensity and short periods in a fasted state.
Don't do cardio after lifting
Don't do high impact/moderate or high intensity cardio which may impact your recoverability.
If you really want to save muscle mass, it's best to not do cardio at all.

I do cardio once or twice a week on my off days. It's usually moderate intensity HIIT style (muay thai with a heavy bag, or mountain biking). I do it because its fun and keeps up my cardio for sports and maintains my skills.

Nice job finding all those quotes. Your summary is mostly on point. Perhaps with the exception of the last sentence. It has not been my experience that low intensity cardio on rest days (i.e. 4x/week, <45-60 min/day) has any compromising effect (at all) on strength or muscle retention during dieting.

There's a few reasons for this.

1. Walking does not affect AMPK (which blunts muscle protein synthesis).

Moderate to intense cardio does. Prolonged cardio, i.e. jogging at a good pace for >30 min has the most detrimental effect in this regard.

2. Walking does not stress the CNS. You're saving your nervous system (strength) and performance for the weights, which is crucial for muscle gains and muscle retention. HIIT is very stressful for the CNS. An all out sprint (i.e. HIIT done right) is not so different from a set of 3-4RM squats.

Lifting at a suboptimal capacity starts a downward spiral in my experience. If your nervous system cannot keep up with what your muscles can lift, muscle loss happens as a consequence of never being able to apply adequate stress/perform optimally.

3. Cardio - HIIT in particular - tears up muscle fibers and require repair and recovery, just like a set of squats.

If you're adding 2-3 sessions of HIIT to your 3 sessions of weights, it is almost comparable to adding 2-3 days of weights. Keyword is "almost", I'm obviously not drawing direct comparisons. That's all fine and dandy if you think working out 5-6 days/week is a good idea on a diet. But I don't think anyone - no matter what level of experience - needs more than 3 days a week in the gym when cutting. (Yes, this goes for competitors and beginners alike.)

In conclusion, if conditioning is not terribly important for you, if your goal is really about getting shredded while keeping your muscle, I highly suggest limiting moderate to high intensity cardio on a diet - or ditch it completely. Save it for some other time when your recovery is good and not limited by your diet.

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

[Jenslyn17]

I really like to do cardio after my workouts, but following the Leangains protocol has meant that I'm trying to limit it to low intensity and mostly non-workout days... Still, I wonder if it'd be ok to have BCAA/some whey after my relatively short workout and then go for a low-intensity cardio session... it's just that it's often more practical on workout days - besides, it's a good way to meet two goals by bringing a course book to the gym and reading while on the crosstrainer or whatever

[eclipsegsx964me]

Nice job finding all those quotes. Your summary is mostly on point. Perhaps with the exception of the last sentence. It has not been my experience that low intensity cardio on rest days (i.e. 4x/week, <45-60 min/day) has any compromising effect (at all) on strength or muscle retention during dieting.

There's a few reasons for this.

1. Walking does not affect AMPK (which blunts muscle protein synthesis).

Moderate to intense cardio does. Prolonged cardio, i.e. jogging at a good pace for >30 min has the most detrimental effect in this regard.

2. Walking does not stress the CNS. You're saving your nervous system (strength) and performance for the weights, which is crucial for muscle gains and muscle retention. HIIT is very stressful for the CNS. An all out sprint (i.e. HIIT done right) is not so different from a set of 3-4RM squats.

Lifting at a suboptimal capacity starts a downward spiral in my experience. If your nervous system cannot keep up with what your muscles can lift, muscle loss happens as a consequence of never being able to apply adequate stress/perform optimally.

3. Cardio - HIIT in particular - tears up muscle fibers and require repair and recovery, just like a set of squats.

If you're adding 2-3 sessions of HIIT to your 3 sessions of weights, it is almost comparable to adding 2-3 days of weights. Keyword is "almost", I'm obviously not drawing direct comparisons. That's all fine and dandy if you think working out 5-6 days/week is a good idea on a diet. But I don't think anyone - no matter what level of experience - needs more than 3 days a week in the gym when cutting. (Yes, this goes for competitors and beginners alike.)

In conclusion, if conditioning is not terribly important for you, if your goal is really about getting shredded while keeping your muscle, I highly suggest limiting moderate to high intensity cardio on a diet - or ditch it completely. Save it for some other time when your recovery is good and not limited by your diet.

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

Awesome to have Martin himself chime in he always delivers what the people want. With the exception of his book but I'm sure that's in the makings.

[Dameem]

Yup, I previously repped Mr. Trader Vlad for his awesome post.
I was doing this HIT thing 3 days a week on of days and I added a low intensity cardio session 30m post workout to move forward the fat burning process and was just wondering how come all my muscles ache.
I guess my cortisol levels were through the roof. I mean my back still hurts. Although I posted my routine, no one seemed to know that what I was doing was counterproductive.
Great finding Mr. Vlad.

[zmustang]

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

This little gem of a statement should be read and re-read, I love it.

[buzzbuff]

Quick question about IF.. Is it fine to keep my macros consistent everyday?

[zmustang]

Quick question about IF.. Is it fine to keep my macros consistent everyday?

yup, you may see slightly different results but its all up to you mate. Do what feels right, as long as you are getting enough to recover and build/ cut, whatever your goals are.

[Gneejack]

Hello folks, first time poster here, but been lurking in the forums for a few months soaking up a lot of wonderful information, thank you all who contributed. Just wanted to give my experience in regards to IF.
A short background, at the end of November I turned 41 and came to the shocking conclusion I had let myself go too far. Don't know what my bf% was, but I was 212lb. at my heaviest. Joined a gym and started weight training 5 days a week, 2 days off, 5 days cardio for 30-45 min. I train a major body part each day, arms Friday with Sat. and Sun. off. I started a Keto style diet at the end of Nov., zero carbs first 3 weeks and slow introduction of complex carbs following. Got down to 185 and stalled for 2 weeks. Tried carb reloading and zero carb to get back into ketosis, but I just gained 5 lbs and then back down to 185lb. and stalled. Felt like my body found it's comfort zone or something.
I've been reading about IF during that time and decided to change things up and give it a try. My routine is as follows:

12am break fast, eat 1 serving oatmeal with 1tbs of honey and blueberries or raisins,
2 scoops of Pro Complex with 1 cup milk.
12:30-2am Work Out
2am 2 scoops Whey with milk and 1 banana.
3am Meal
7am Meal

40p/30f/30c at 2200-2300 calories on average, I decrease carbs on Sat and Sun.
222p/62f/161c sample day

I'm at 178lbs. 12%bf as of 2 weeks into IF. I really like this method as I don't feel I'm a slave to the 6-7 meal a day dogma that was drilled into me. Was getting sick of eating like a bird and never feeling full. On IF I've been very flexible in what I've been eating, just keeping track of the calories and making sure I get the protein intake to prevent muscle loss. My plan is to get to 10%bf and begin bulking, but I'm still undecided if I will do the bulk using an IF protocol.

[.aeterna]

hmm i think the underlying premise of IF is to cut bodyfat/recomp. not necessarily "bulk"

but, if u can consume 500+ surplus calories in ur feeding window, knock urself out! IF is a lifestyle..and a successful one at that

[FitDad327]

I think Martin does mention that some if his clients follow his protocols during a bulk. I think it would help to keep the amount of fat you put on minimal compared to a traditional bulk.

[Gneejack]

I think Martin does mention that some if his clients follow his protocols during a bulk. I think it would help to keep the amount of fat you put on minimal compared to a traditional bulk.

Aye, I read that also on his Leangains site. Pbateman is currently on a bulk using an IF protocol I believe and that guy seems to know what he's doing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any problem putting down 3500+ calories in an 8 hour window and I want to make "leangains", but if the gains are under say 6 lbs in a year, I'd lean more towards a traditional bulk and perhaps cut again. Any bulkers using an IF protocol, please chime in.

[Jenslyn17]

I don't personally have a problem downing enough calories (oatmeal ftw ), but you know... if you really feel like it's unpleasant then I'm sure Martin would agree that LG is just not for you when you bulk. The whole point is to make everything easier but still very effective. If it turns into a hassle and a burden, the point becomes moot

[PerpetualMotion]

Aye, I read that also on his Leangains site. Pbateman is currently on a bulk using an IF protocol I believe and that guy seems to know what he's doing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any problem putting down 3500+ calories in an 8 hour window and I want to make "leangains", but if the gains are under say 6 lbs in a year, I'd lean more towards a traditional bulk and perhaps cut again. Any bulkers using an IF protocol, please chime in.

Ultimately, it depends! If you gain more "weight" during a bulk it does not necessarily mean that bulk was superior to another. Fat gain is simply gained from the over-consumption of calories and they are not used, which is why some people start bulking at a small rate such as +500 calories over maintenance.

You have to also realize that you are also hindered by how long you have lifted and your genetic potential. This has been addressed by Lyle McDonald and he refers to Martin's and Alan's formulas for how much muscle a person can gain in a single year.

This is Lyle's formula (number on left represents number of years lifting while number on right represents muscle gain in a year):
1 - 20-25 pounds
2 - 10-12 pounds
3 - 5-6 pounds
4+ - 2-3 pounds

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...potential.html

In essence, if you have have gained 6lbs on Leangains but gained no fat then you can say you gained 6lbs of lean body mass. The point of leangains is to maximize muscle gain without the fat gain. So if you gain only 6lbs and it's all muscle then you should be happy. Don't focus on "weight". It's easy to gain weight. Weight is just a general term that encompasses a lot of physical aspects.

You'll want to track your progress on any type of bulk/cut. You have to be realistic, though, in your expectations. I'd just convince myself now and realize that total pounds gained is not what matters. Just make sure the muscle gain is slow and steady. You don't want to gain 3lbs in a week. That's just overkill and a surefire way to become a fatty.

The point is that muscle gain is a slow process. Most of the guys who have impressive physiques on here have lifted more than 2+ dedicated years. Heck, I'm pretty PBateman has lifted 5 years. It's not like he become huge overnight. Dedication and patience is what it takes. That's why my goal is a 2-year goal.

[Gneejack]

This is Lyle's formula (number on left represents number of years lifting while number on right represents muscle gain in a year):
1 - 20-25 pounds
2 - 10-12 pounds
3 - 5-6 pounds
4+ - 2-3 pounds


In essence, if you have have gained 6lbs on Leangains but gained no fat then you can say you gained 6lbs of lean body mass. The point of leangains is to maximize muscle gain without the fat gain. So if you gain only 6lbs and it's all muscle then you should be happy.

I'm going into my 4th month of lifting and according to Lyle's formula, under optimal conditions I can expect to gain 20-25 lbs of muscle this year, yet you say I should be happy if I gain 6 lbs? I don't understand. I understand the purpose of leangains is to gain lean muscle with minimal fat, I've read the leangains site and I'm not confused about weight and lean muscle mass. I'm not trying to gain weight for the sake of gaining weight. I'm just saying, if I go the traditional route of bulking and gain 20lbs of lean muscle and 5lbs of fat, after cutting I would most likely be left with 15-17lbs of muscle after burning off the 5 lbs of fat, that would still be better than the 6lbs that you say I should be happy with. These numbers are all hypothetical I know, which is why I'd love to hear from people that have bulked using the IF protocol.
Btw, I'm not knocking IF, I think it's an awesome dieting regimen, I'm just not sure on whether it's the ideal approach for bulking. In any case, whether I bulk on intermittent fasting or not, I will definitely keep using it as a maintenance diet once I get to my desired body composition.

[Ivan088816]

Would Xtend satisfy the 10g of BCAA?

Yes Xtend is good, I use it preworkout all the time.

[bassitos]

Yes Xtend is good, I use it preworkout all the time.

How do you take, all 10g before workout or spread it into pre and during?

Creatine, do you take fasted or 1h or something like that after the PWO meal?

(:

[benwin21]

Nice job finding all those quotes. Your summary is mostly on point. Perhaps with the exception of the last sentence. It has not been my experience that low intensity cardio on rest days (i.e. 4x/week, <45-60 min/day) has any compromising effect (at all) on strength or muscle retention during dieting.

There's a few reasons for this.[...]

[valuable information by the all mighty Martin]

[...]

In conclusion, if conditioning is not terribly important for you, if your goal is really about getting shredded while keeping your muscle, I highly suggest limiting moderate to high intensity cardio on a diet - or ditch it completely. Save it for some other time when your recovery is good and not limited by your diet.

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

what if i'm preparing for the army which requires me to be in great shape(long running,and sprints)

how do you recommend me to incorporate it with my 3 times a week weight lifting training?

up until now i have done cardio 3 times a week after my lifting sessions with variable times (most of the time i do 20-30 mins of miss but sometimes 15-25 min of HIIT-5 min warm up and cool down included) now i stick to 30 mins of miss on the stationary bike due to my weakling shins that are recovering from shin splints.

[dcarterc]

Aye, I read that also on his Leangains site. Pbateman is currently on a bulk using an IF protocol I believe and that guy seems to know what he's doing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any problem putting down 3500+ calories in an 8 hour window and I want to make "leangains", but if the gains are under say 6 lbs in a year, I'd lean more towards a traditional bulk and perhaps cut again. Any bulkers using an IF protocol, please chime in.

I'm currently on a 'bulk' & am following lean gains/IF. All my PRs are going up each week but yes the 'weight' gain has been slow and steady which is fine by me. Having just lost 20lbs and cutting to 9% body fat a slow recomp is more of my goal. IF has allowed me flexibility of not having to spend all day eating and I can consume 1000+ cals in a single meal easily. My muscles are filling out nicely while still remaining lean especially in my mid section - my abs were the first thing to disappear w/ a traditional bulk but thats not been an issue with IF.

Ultimately I think it all depends on ones goals and level of patience.

[fni]

Started eating slight more on my work out days to move towards building strenght/recomp and STILL lost 1.5 lbs this week.

time to up those cals, but..
feelsgoodman

[Shazriki]

I'm currently on a 'bulk' & am following lean gains/IF. All my PRs are going up each week but yes the 'weight' gain has been slow and steady which is fine by me. Having just lost 20lbs and cutting to 9% body fat a slow recomp is more of my goal. IF has allowed me flexibility of not having to spend all day eating and I can consume 1000+ cals in a single meal easily. My muscles are filling out nicely while still remaining lean especially in my mid section - my abs were the first thing to disappear w/ a traditional bulk but thats not been an issue with IF.

Ultimately I think it all depends on ones goals and level of patience.

Are you doing +20% maintenance on workout days and -20% on rest days? Also are you on a 3-day or 4-day split?

[dcarterc]

Are you doing +20% maintenance on workout days and -20% on rest days? Also are you on a 3-day or 4-day split?

Yup.... That is correct. I take in a 20% surplus (approx 3400 cals) on workout days and about 2200-2300 on rest days (approx 20% deficit). I workout 4 days a week @ 5am. So I break my fast at noon with a big lunch - splitting my cals over the course of 2-3 meals during my 8hr feeding window. My last meal is usually around 7-730pm. I follow the LG protocols in terms of cycling macros - keeping carbs 134g on rest days and consume approx 420g carbs on training days. Protein and fat remain relatively consistent on all days.

Like I said I'm definitely not getting HUGE overnight but am seeing great strength gains while maintaining my leanness. I haven't been doing a ton of cardio either. My approach is to not over think things too much. I find that consistency is key. Stressing over little details as many tend to do on these forums just distracts you from sticking to one goal.

[Gneejack]

I'm currently on a 'bulk' & am following lean gains/IF. All my PRs are going up each week but yes the 'weight' gain has been slow and steady which is fine by me. Having just lost 20lbs and cutting to 9% body fat a slow recomp is more of my goal. IF has allowed me flexibility of not having to spend all day eating and I can consume 1000+ cals in a single meal easily. My muscles are filling out nicely while still remaining lean especially in my mid section - my abs were the first thing to disappear w/ a traditional bulk but thats not been an issue with IF.

Ultimately I think it all depends on ones goals and level of patience.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Dcarterc, much appreciated. Please keep us posted on your progress.

[tygeruppercut]

Two questions about the IF fasting program:

1) Which protocol would you all recommend? Generally, I work a 10:30am-7:30pm shift M-F, Sunday 11:30am-6:30pm and 8:00am-6:30pm on Saturdays.

2) Does "clean" and "unclean" meals matter because of the IF?

Thanks

[RugbyTank]

Nice job finding all those quotes...
If conditioning is not terribly important for you, if your goal is really about getting shredded while keeping your muscle, I highly suggest limiting moderate to high intensity cardio on a diet - or ditch it completely. Save it for some other time when your recovery is good and not limited by your diet.

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

Wow, mind has been blown. Very impressed that after all these years (2007) you are still contributing to the forums(2011) with answers I am sure you have given on numerous documented occasions.
If nothing else this shows your dedication to your beliefs, and for that reason I believe anyone who is passionate about health or nutrition should experiment with IF purely out respect.

You did not simply cast into the lake and set it aside,
Kudos man that simply says a lot about your character.