Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[Jenslyn17]

i always consume a high fat diet as this is supposed to increase test levels , and i always train heavy
my total test level is 16.5nmol/L
range should be ( 9.1 - 55.2 )
infact i feel tired all the time and not motivated at all

The ceiling of that interval is very high. And I hear most are in the lower end.

I'm 24 and at 14 nmol/L, så don't bitch :P

[belmont316]

Is your sig a riff on "She Will" Drake n Wayne? Btw I finished up a bottle of digestive enzymes just prior to starting IF so I will see if I notice any similarities..

yes i typically change the lyrics to any popular song to more weightlifting orientated, well i do it to all songs I like, but she will just happens to be popular.

cool interested to see what your comparisons are. i notice on IF i seem to shyt less volume with the same amount of food intake... just sayin.

[apace]

Ok i will try adding 50 mg of zinc as you said , much cheaper then tongkat ali as 2 months cost me € 120 and i did not see any difference , also will D aspartic acid work as i heard good things about it

[SmashWilliams]

yes i typically change the lyrics to any popular song to more weightlifting orientated, well i do it to all songs I like, but she will just happens to be popular.

cool interested to see what your comparisons are. i notice on IF i seem to shyt less volume with the same amount of food intake... just sayin.

I've got a chronic large intestine inflammation, and since starting IF I seem to shyte way less often, sometimes I go days without shyting, and the other day I had an exremely dense, and somewhat painful bowel movement (it almost stood up by itself in the toilet afterwards). And that hasn't happened to me in years..

Let me know if that was TMI.

[Dr2]

been fasting from 10:30pm-2:30Pm then bulking at 4000 calories.

love it, Im hoping it helps minimize fat gains and honestly I love the mental effect of being hungry as before when I was always full and bloated I hated it.

[mccouch]

Ok i will try adding 50 mg of zinc as you said , much cheaper then tongkat ali as 2 months cost me € 120 and i did not see any difference , also will D aspartic acid work as i heard good things about it

From what I know about DAA, you need to consume a substantial amount of it for there to be a marginal effect on T levels...Also, there have been issues w/ its solubility in the body.. Apparently there are a couple brand that are more water soluble than others.. If you insist on DAA, make sure its a quality one..

[mccouch]

been fasting from 10:30pm-2:30Pm then bulking at 4000 calories.

love it, Im hoping it helps minimize fat gains and honestly I love the mental effect of being hungry as before when I was always full and bloated I hated it.

4000? yikes

[maltanarchy]

Quick question: I'm at that point where I could cut more but, I have very little muscle to cut to. I've dropped 65 lbs and change, and I have a little bit loose skin / loose fat on my belly. The losing fat forum put me at 14-16% based on my photos. (see my avatar) My not-so-accurate-BIA scale puts me in that same range. I've been doing IF for about 3 weeks. I'm in the zone. My body has gotten used to the fast. It took me some time. I've been eating at 1750 average for the week (2100 lifting and 1500/1600 on non-lift days) which should be a 400 cal deficit, but seems more like the bottom end of my maintenance.

Since I'm above the suggested 10-12% should I still be eating at maintenance? Or should I aim for a bigger weekly deficit while still cycling calories/carbs?

[vitornoob]

Quick question: I'm at that point where I could cut more but, I have very little muscle to cut to. I've dropped 65 lbs and change, and I have a little bit loose skin / loose fat on my belly. The losing fat forum put me at 14-16% based on my photos. (see my avatar) My not-so-accurate-BIA scale puts me in that same range. I've been doing IF for about 3 weeks. I'm in the zone. My body has gotten used to the fast. It took me some time. I've been eating at 1750 average for the week (2100 lifting and 1500/1600 on non-lift days) which should be a 400 cal deficit, but seems more like the bottom end of my maintenance.

Since I'm above the suggested 10-12% should I still be eating at maintenance? Or should I aim for a bigger weekly deficit while still cycling calories/carbs?

Man, sorry, but why the hell are you cutting?
Go to a clean bulking, your calories are faaaaaaaaaaar to low...my maintance is 2300-2400kcal and i am 134lb

starting doing a reverse diet and go into a clean bulking now...

[maltanarchy]

Man, sorry, but why the hell are you cutting?
Go to a clean bulking, your calories are faaaaaaaaaaar to low...my maintance is 2300-2400kcal and i am 134lb

starting doing a reverse diet and go into a clean bulking now...

I honestly don't know what I should be doing.... I guess. I thought I'm at the point where I could eliminate the last bits of belly fat OR clean bulk. I have been maintaining in the 145 area for quite a while. I guess I wanted to continue to cut so that my stomach looked as lean as the rest of my body. I thought if I gained it would naturally cling to the belly since I clearly hold it there.

As for the numbers of cals, I swear that my maintenance is around 1900-2000. Not 2200 or 2300. I track cals good. Heck, that's why I was successful at losing and keeping off my weight.

[vitornoob]

I honestly don't know what I should be doing.... I guess. I thought I'm at the point where I could eliminate the last bits of belly fat OR clean bulk. I have been maintaining in the 145 area for quite a while. I guess I wanted to continue to cut so that my stomach looked as lean as the rest of my body. I thought if I gained it would naturally cling to the belly since I clearly hold it there.

As for the numbers of cals, I swear that my maintenance is around 1900-2000. Not 2200 or 2300. I track cals good. Heck, that's why I was successful at losing and keeping off my weight.

just stick with some reverse dieting and go for clean bulking or a recomp, as i can see your photo you have lost a lot pounds, right? probably what do you need now is to add some mass
increase cals slowly and see what happens...well, that is what i think

good luck (:

[maltanarchy]

just stick with some reverse dieting and go for clean bulking or a recomp, as i can see your photo you have lost a lot pounds, right? probably what do you need now is to add some mass
increase cals slowly and see what happens...well, that is what i think

good luck (:

As a guy that was overweight his whole life... I guess that really shapes my goals. The loose belly fat (possibly loose skin) is something that taunts me. It irritates me. However, maybe filling with muscle is the better way to attack that. IDK... Hence why I'm confused.

Maybe I'll just eat at maintenance and follow the LG guidelines of +/- 20%

[vitornoob]

As a guy that was overweight his whole life... I guess that really shapes my goals. The loose belly fat (possibly loose skin) is something that taunts me. It irritates me. However, maybe filling with muscle is the better way to attack that. IDK... Hence why I'm confused.

i know how you feel, i was fat while kid, i just wanted to lose fat as much as i could, got an ED hard...now i see what i have done...you can not lose skin, that is why fast cuttings are bad, the skin still there, and with a lot...now the only thing you can do is: surgery or adding mass

as i said...you need more muscle...just go with a clean bulk or recomp that you will see more ripped, i can say this due to my own experience

[SmashWilliams]

I honestly don't know what I should be doing.... I guess. I thought I'm at the point where I could eliminate the last bits of belly fat OR clean bulk. I have been maintaining in the 145 area for quite a while. I guess I wanted to continue to cut so that my stomach looked as lean as the rest of my body. I thought if I gained it would naturally cling to the belly since I clearly hold it there.

As for the numbers of cals, I swear that my maintenance is around 1900-2000. Not 2200 or 2300. I track cals good. Heck, that's why I was successful at losing and keeping off my weight.

+1 on this... I was on a big deficit for a very long time, at the start i was like 176lbs on 6'1, began with 2300 calories on training days, and 1500 on off days, didnt lose any weight first 4 weeks, my lifts did go up a ton so I guess I might have still lost some fat. After those 4 weeks I added 200 kcal worth of cardio on off days and brought training days down to 2100kcal, and then weight loss really took off and strength gains stalled. All this would suggest my maint is way lower then most people would think.

Ended a week ago at 158lbs, was doing 1800 on training days, 1500 off days, lifts stayed unchanged during that 18lbs weight loss and I felt great, never hungry or fatigued. Seems maintenance can vary insanely much since I've seen some people getting super ripped with unchanged strength on very low calories before.

On another note I've been "bulking" for a week now, starting at 2600 on training days and 2000 on off days which is supposed to be maintenance using various calculators, but as im convinced my maint is or atleast have been lower then calculators show after such a long time in deficit I dont wanna go higher until im sure im not gaining strength/weight.

[QT]

How many of you guys actually take whey post workout anymore? I can't see how it's implemented with IF, as the post workout meal should be the largest. I've personally quite Whey

[belmont316]

I've got a chronic large intestine inflammation, and since starting IF I seem to shyte way less often, sometimes I go days without shyting, and the other day I had an exremely dense, and somewhat painful bowel movement (it almost stood up by itself in the toilet afterwards). And that hasn't happened to me in years..

Let me know if that was TMI.

no I get that too sometimes, usually it has to do with being less than hydrated. make sure you stay hydrated, I too sometimes get shyts that are so solid they have to be broken with a plunger, and then sometimes I wont really shyt for a while day, then I will unload about 2 feet worth of shyt. Srs.

[volara]

How many of you guys actually take whey post workout anymore? I can't see how it's implemented with IF, as the post workout meal should be the largest. I've personally quite Whey

Whey is whey, if somebody wants to incorporate shakes into his/her plan he/she can freely go on and do just that.

Food is more satisfactory though, and this why most people (I know of) practicing leangains stay with meat.

After all, the big meals is a main part of the whole system.

Personally, that's what made me stick to it.

I mean, what can beat a 3500 calorie meal?

[SmashWilliams]

I usually take whey post workout with a banana while im cooking just to not have to eat so frikkin much.... Recently began bulking and yesterday I trained fasted and smashed down 730g potatoes, 200g pork tenderloin, 200g chicken breast, one scoop of whey and 2 bananas post workout... And that was not effin easy after like 8 months on low calorie intake, really have to start eating more dense carb sources.

[volara]

I usually take whey post workout with a banana while im cooking just to not have to eat so frikkin much.... Recently began bulking and yesterday I trained fasted and smashed down 730g potatoes, 200g pork tenderloin, 200g chicken breast, one scoop of whey and 2 bananas post workout... And that was not effin easy after like 8 months on low calorie intake, really have to start eating more dense carb sources.

Had the same problem.

I tried using cereal magic.

It worked.

[IrishPilot]

I honestly don't know what I should be doing.... I guess. ...
As for the numbers of cals, I swear that my maintenance is around 1900-2000. Not 2200 or 2300...

You need to put some muscle on the frame bud. You have done a great job creating the void...now fill it some and then cut for spring. Your maintenance is NOT that low. I was 150 when I started my bulk a few weeks ago, and the past week of using a bodymedia fit I have found my average maintenance to be around 2800. Thats lifting and some cardio and then my work is mostly sedentary. Even on days when I dont do anything, my maintenance usually comes to around 2200-2400...and thats a pretty sedentary day. If I get any kind of NEAT in (mowing the lawn, walking around doing laundry cleaning etc.) for a decent portion of the day Im right back to the 2600-2800 mark.

I would suggest you start at around 2500 for awhile, enjoy the extra cals, watch your lifts increase, and reassess your goals.

[maltanarchy]

You need to put some muscle on the frame bud. You have done a great job creating the void...now fill it some and then cut for spring. Your maintenance is NOT that low. I was 150 when I started my bulk a few weeks ago, and the past week of using a bodymedia fit I have found my average maintenance to be around 2800. Thats lifting and some cardio and then my work is mostly sedentary. Even on days when I dont do anything, my maintenance usually comes to around 2200-2400...and thats a pretty sedentary day. If I get any kind of NEAT in (mowing the lawn, walking around doing laundry cleaning etc.) for a decent portion of the day Im right back to the 2600-2800 mark.

I would suggest you start at around 2500 for awhile, enjoy the extra cals, watch your lifts increase, and reassess your goals.

That's actually what I was thinking. I had 2400 yesterday... And it was work. I need to eat more calorie dense food like I did back in the fat days! I may have had possibly more than 2400 if my math on our homemade chocolate chip cookies was off. Do I need to do a full time bulk? or would something like 2400 on lift days and 1600 on off days work? That would be the 2000 maintenance +/- 20% as the lean gains style. I'm certainly interested in the mythical lose fat / gain muscle at the same time... That is one of the designs of the Lean Gains Protocol, right?

[IrishPilot]

That's actually what I was thinking. I had 2400 yesterday... And it was work. I need to eat more calorie dense food like I did back in the fat days! I may have had possibly more than 2400 if my math on our homemade chocolate chip cookies was off. Do I need to do a full time bulk? or would something like 2400 on lift days and 1600 on off days work? That would be the 2000 maintenance +/- 20% as the lean gains style. I'm certainly interested in the mythical lose fat / gain muscle at the same time... That is one of the designs of the Lean Gains Protocol, right?

My suggestion? Let go of the sub 2ooo calorie life for awhile. Like many of us formerly overweight you are afraid to eat. Even on your lazy days that 2400 cals is not likely to be much of a surplus...if any. Eat it daily for at least 2-3 weeks and see how you feel as well as observe what the scale and mirror do. Having been in such a deficit, the increase in cals and likely carbs is going to give you a bounce in water weight. Don't fret...just enjoy the cals, train hard, and rethink after a couple weeks.

[maltanarchy]

My suggestion? Let go of the sub 2ooo calorie life for awhile. Like many of us formerly overweight you are afraid to eat. Even on your lazy days that 2400 cals is not likely to be much of a surplus...if any. Eat it daily for at least 2-3 weeks and see how you feel as well as observe what the scale and mirror do. Having been in such a deficit, the increase in cals and likely carbs is going to give you a bounce in water weight. Don't fret...just enjoy the cals, train hard, and rethink after a couple weeks.

Clearly I'm afraid to eat. My big milestone recently was stopping weekly weigh-ins. I'm now only going to check once a month.

So is maintenance more of a window? Most calculators put my maintenance at 2150-ish. I thought I was eating at 1750. Granted my counting isn't perfect, but I wouldn't be off by 400-600 a day. Don't get me wrong, I have occasional cheats that involve M&Ms and Peanuts or even a Chinese buffet... But not consistently. Not enough that would offset the kind of deficit your are referring to - - if I was really that far below maintenance. I know that none of this is an exact science, and that the calorie calculations are a general starting point.

Not sure if I'm mentally strong enough to break 2000 daily... Hahaha. I'll up my cals and see what happens after a few weeks. If I gain more than a few lbs at my weigh-in next month I'll readjust.

[IrishPilot]

Clearly I'm afraid to eat...Most calculators put my maintenance at 2150-ish. I thought I was eating at 1750...my counting isn't perfect, but I wouldn't be off by 400-600 a day. Don't get me wrong, I have occasional cheats that involve M&Ms and Peanuts...Not sure if I'm mentally strong enough to break 2000 daily...If I gain more than a few lbs at my weigh-in next month I'll readjust.

Alright guy...Im gonna level with you here. Please keep in mind this is simply my opinion.

Im going to assume you lift/exercise at least 3 days a week? Ill also assume you are moderately active the other days correct? It is highly unlikely your maintenance is lower than 2200, so lets run with that for now. I dont want you to obsess over food and calories, but its important you begin to pay close attention to what you are eating. Not nutritionally necessarily, but the numbers game. You need to be conscious and precise about your cal intake. M&Ms are fine! Peanuts are fine! Just make sure to take note of how much you are eating and count them in to your calories and macros for the day! I routinely add in peanut butter M&Ms. Eating more organic/natural foods is of course beneficial for long term health, but there is no immediate downside to adding in some favorites to your menu for the day. Dont get caught up in unclean/clean foods etc. Balance and moderation. Ease off the mindgame of weightloss/weightgain for the next few short weeks. Eat around that 2200-2400 cal mark and fill it with foods you enjoy while being mindful about getting adequate protein/fats/carbs. Do not worry about the scale. When you do get back on the scale, its LIKELY to be higher due to some water weight gain with the increase in cals and likely carbs.

Eat two weeks at 2200...then jump on the scale...then continue to eat at 2200 (or 2400!) beyond those two weeks while monitoring the scale. I think you will be surprised to see that beyond slight 1-2lb +/- water weight fluxes that your weight is going to remain fairly constant.

You are depriving yourself not only the nutrition you need, but you have trained your mind to err on the side of deficit. You didnt get overweight overnight...you didnt lose the weight overnight...taking a month to eat and assess maintenance will not only do well for your mind, but it will likely bring your training energy back to speed as well as give you a different perspective on your goals.

(steps off the soapbox).

[maltanarchy]

Alright guy...Im gonna level with you here. Please keep in mind this is simply my opinion.

Im going to assume you lift/exercise at least 3 days a week? Ill also assume you are moderately active the other days correct? It is highly unlikely your maintenance is lower than 2200, so lets run with that for now. I dont want you to obsess over food and calories, but its important you begin to pay close attention to what you are eating. Not nutritionally necessarily, but the numbers game. You need to be conscious and precise about your cal intake. M&Ms are fine! Peanuts are fine! Just make sure to take note of how much you are eating and count them in to your calories and macros for the day! I routinely add in peanut butter M&Ms. Eating more organic/natural foods is of course beneficial for long term health, but there is no immediate downside to adding in some favorites to your menu for the day. Dont get caught up in unclean/clean foods etc. Balance and moderation. Ease off the mindgame of weightloss/weightgain for the next few short weeks. Eat around that 2200-2400 cal mark and fill it with foods you enjoy while being mindful about getting adequate protein/fats/carbs. Do not worry about the scale. When you do get back on the scale, its LIKELY to be higher due to some water weight gain with the increase in cals and likely carbs.

Eat two weeks at 2200...then jump on the scale...then continue to eat at 2200 (or 2400!) beyond those two weeks while monitoring the scale. I think you will be surprised to see that beyond slight 1-2lb +/- water weight fluxes that your weight is going to remain fairly constant.

You are depriving yourself not only the nutrition you need, but you have trained your mind to err on the side of deficit. You didnt get overweight overnight...you didnt lose the weight overnight...taking a month to eat and assess maintenance will not only do well for your mind, but it will likely bring your training energy back to speed as well as give you a different perspective on your goals.

(steps off the soapbox).

I lift 3 days a week for about an hour - Doing All Pro's Simple Beginner's Routine. I like to do cardio 1 or 2 days a week for about 30 mins. I sit on my butt at a computer all day.... or driving to a broken one. I have been paying close attention to what I eat. I starting using MyFitnessPal to log stuff when I couldn't lift due to my RC injury. When I wasn't lifting my weight seemed harder to maintain so I started using MFP. As for the junk... I know all about IIFYM and I do make them fit.

I guess what threw me off was what you said about "erring on the side of deficit". That's dead on. I was eating 1750 most days of the month with a one or two 2000 or 2500 days in there... Not often. When my weight was maintaining I assumed that 1750 was very close to my maintenance. That's why I asked about maintenance being more of a window than a hard line.

That being said, I will up my calories and see what happens. I'm assuming you want me to try a straight 2200 every day... no cycling at this point. Thanks man, I gotta go eat something. I'm only halfway to 2200. I'm not sure I can rock the IF with two 1100 calorie meals. hahaha

[IrishPilot]

Yup...ditch the cycling...get the cals in. Worry about cal cycling later.

[vitornoob]

i would say reverse dieting...increasing cals with time to avoid bloating, water weight, unnecessary weight gain, etc

good luck (:

[mccouch]

Would HIIT count as a workout day where you could consume High Protein/High Carbs and minimal Fat? I've been doin my 60 minutes of fasted lifting, followed by HIIT. I COULD use a day off from the weights and still do my HIIT.

[vitornoob]

Would HIIT count as a workout day where you could consume High Protein/High Carbs and minimal Fat? I've been doin my 60 minutes of fasted lifting, followed by HIIT. I COULD use a day off from the weights and still do my HIIT.

If you're adding 2-3 sessions of HIIT to your 3 sessions of weights, it is almost comparable to adding 2-3 days of weights. Keyword is "almost", I'm obviously not drawing direct comparisons. That's all fine and dandy if you think working out 5-6 days/week is a good idea on a diet. But I don't think anyone - no matter what level of experience - needs more than 3 days a week in the gym when cutting. (Yes, this goes for competitors and beginners alike.)
In conclusion, if conditioning is not terribly important for you, if your goal is really about getting shredded while keeping your muscle, I highly suggest limiting moderate to high intensity cardio on a diet - or ditch it completely. Save it for some other time when your recovery is good and not limited by your diet.

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

if it is for conditioning...i would do legs day to not stress like lyle mcdonald says, HIIT has a amazing inpact in fat utilisation but the EPOC is really similar to a long LISS...read here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...nect-pt-1.html

[mccouch]

If you're adding 2-3 sessions of HIIT to your 3 sessions of weights, it is almost comparable to adding 2-3 days of weights. Keyword is "almost", I'm obviously not drawing direct comparisons. That's all fine and dandy if you think working out 5-6 days/week is a good idea on a diet. But I don't think anyone - no matter what level of experience - needs more than 3 days a week in the gym when cutting. (Yes, this goes for competitors and beginners alike.)
In conclusion, if conditioning is not terribly important for you, if your goal is really about getting shredded while keeping your muscle, I highly suggest limiting moderate to high intensity cardio on a diet - or ditch it completely. Save it for some other time when your recovery is good and not limited by your diet.

A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit. Avoid deficit spending.

if it is for conditioning...i would do legs day to not stress like lyle mcdonald says, HIIT has a amazing inpact in fat utilisation but the EPOC is really similar to a long LISS...read here: bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/steady-state-versus-intervals-training-and-fat-loss-explaining-the-disconnect-pt-1.html

Well, if its a workout day then I wouldn't be putting myself in a severe calorie deficit. Thus, there wouldn't be a lack of recovery. If I were on my -20% "off" days, and did some HIIT, then I think it would be blunting my recovery.. yes?