Should I abort bulk/SS program?

[Claykees]

Situation here is I was bulking the wrong way for 8 months (bulking via isolation exercises having no prior weightlifting base and doing no legs), then was told here to get on a real program: starting strength. I had no idea about this stuff since majority of my life exercise has been running miles and doing martial arts. So I started SS in June and now here I am at a crossroads.

I find with starting strength I'm actually looking leaner in a mirror than I was with my poor bulk but size wise I've increased all around. Doesn't sound like a problem but it is because I've also increased size in the waist by 1.5-2 inches in the past 4 months from starting strength. This is obviously a red flag that fat is accumulating in this area (obviously the waist is not developing muscles) despite what I'm seeing in the mirror. I read around here that your waist size should not increase or maximum should increase 0.5-1 inch on a bulk and I'm already past that. I'm actually bigger in my waist than I was on my crappy makeshift program (I judge the waist increase by my pant size and having to buy the next size up lately).

Considering when I was doing pure cardio and martial arts I was a 29, then after my crappy bulk I was a 30/31, now with starting strength I'm a 32/33, I'm finding this very uncomfortable. I feel like by continuing to bulk on SS I'm just feeding something that is destroying my body-image. So yes, my mind is rattled right now. I only decided to start bulking because the martial arts gym closed down and now I am paranoid and becoming regretful in my decision. For those that will ask with diet I eat brown rices and brown pastas as my grains. Chicken breast, chicken drumsticks, whatever meat I can find as my protein, and fruits. Not a lot of variety but it's all I can afford/cook on my own. I rarely eat out. I've tried lowering my food intake but then I don't recover well enough for the next workout session and feel weaker each time I go (obviously). I'm too scared to eat more and have been stalled at the same weight for a long time now (2 weeks) and have even regressed in some lifts. So I don't know what's up.

I basically feel like I'm becoming a stronger version of myself in a fatass/blocky shape on this bulk rather than achieving a brickhouse V-tapered physique while trying to bulk on this program. I felt alot better about my overall body before bulking whereas now other than my arms and shoulders I hate how I look. Honestly, I just want to get bigger but I don't want my waist to grow. Basically I want to bulk like you guys do. Please help me out here. Thanks.

[maggiesfarm]

Can you post a picture? Where are your lifts at?

The recommended way to handle stalls on SS is with a reset, have you done that yet? You drop the weight, but get stricter about form, and progress again.

Without seeing a pic, I think that if you've been bulking for 8 months, have hit a legitimate wall with SS (i.e. don't need to reset and improve form) and aren't too skinny to cut, then you should switch to something with more variety and reps, like SL 5x5 or something resembling it. In particular, SS lacks rows as well as a vertical pull exercise like pull-ups.

Then once you've established baseline numbers on the new program, get on a cutting diet while trying to maintain your lifts, but still prioritizing the diet.

[tara19]

Post a current photo of yourself relaxed front, side and back.
You'll be able to see if you have enough LBM to cut.

[dmacdonal9]

SS is not making you fat mate, too many calories are making you fat.

Plenty of people do SS while cutting, it's not purely a bulking program, even if it was originally designed with that in mind.

[Claykees]

Pictures added. My spine actually seems more curved than I remember. Hopefully that's nothing to worry about. I have no idea how to take a back shot as well so I took two but please don't be disappointed in me for the angles.

@maggie My lifts are in limbo now. I started the program with the bar only. I hit my maxes of 45 pound plates per each side for a squat, 50 lbs plates on each side for bench, and 50 lb plates for each side of dead lift last month actually. But then I crashed for some reason the next session and since then I've been struggling on all my lifts to come close to those maxes again. I was linearly progressing until then. Must be a mental thing, I don't know, but my lifts slowly regressed to 10lbs off all of them since then and trying to limit my food more now because of this mental issue I'm posting about isn't helping get the lifts back up. I'm basically a **** up with this bodybuilding stuff to put it bluntly (heck even I know my maxes should have been higher than what they were a month ago).

@tara I have done so. I just don't like how my body looks all around right now. I think I actually remember you from my first thread so you probably will notice progress is disappointing for sure. Let myself down I guess.

@Dmac I think I'll dial back carbs PWO. I usually eat dinner with some carb heavy plate i.e. brown rice/pasta after the gym to "refuel" since I was under the impression this was smart but I think maybe doing that is just negating what I just did in the gym. I'm not denying that I'm fat right now. I'm not saying SS is to blame. I'm saying based on the position I've put myself in through incompetence in understanding how to progress, would it be advisable for me to stop this program, cut my waist back down to 29 the only way I know how (excessive cardio like I used to do before attempting this bb/bulking stuff), accept the strength losses, and then try anew or is there a way I can go about correcting my current situation without having to reset to square one?

[tara19]

Honestly, I wouldn't cut.
What are your calories/macros?

[Claykees]

Honestly, I wouldn't cut.
What are your calories/macros?

Calories - Apparently 2100-2200 but I'm not convinced since this seems way too low for how I feel (see below for my example day diet).

Macros (taken from typical day based on my diet below):
P = 125.3g ($hit is expensive for me...probably should have tried shakes to get more)
C = 162.4g
F=59.7g

From my calculations of food intake the calories I get researching my foods in their quantities online returns a number that seems way too low. I think dinner in particular is wrong. For example I think 180g whole wheat spaghetti (half a box) and 3oz extra lean ground beef meat topped off with 1/3 a jar of ragu sauce being only 868 calories based on my research of the ingredients in those quantities just seems way to low. However, that's what I got. Do you agree it seems too low? Either that or I'm forgetting to account for something that is a huge slot of calories. Honestly I feel like I must eat 3000 calories per day since I try to eat enough to lift more (even though I've been failing at that lately) and I've been feeling much fatter than I can handle recently.

Anyways this is the example of my diet and quantities:

Breakfast:
One or Two boiled eggs, each separately sandwiched in 70 calorie/slice whole wheat toast with one knifeside of margarine per slice (so that's 2 or 4 slices of toast total).
1 clementine
Drink water

Lunch:
1 or 2 Tim horton's ranch wraps on uni campus (2 if I only had 1 egg sandwhich for breakfast and vice versa)
Drink water

Dinner option 1:
180g Spaghetti (or enough to fill one plate...no mountain though) with 3oz extra lean ground beef meat mixed with ragu sauce
1 clementine
Drink water (so usually by end of the day I've consumed a liter or 1.5L of water)
1 greek yogurt

Dinner option 2:
Brown rice (2 or 3) cups...have been having trouble digesting the cheaper (and thus more raw) brown rices I've been buying lately even though rice is a staple in my culture
2 chicken drumsticks or 1 chicken breast (depending on what I can afford for the week)
Tomato sauce on top of it
1 clementine
Drink water
1 greek yogurt

My diet is pretty much this alternating everyday for dinner between the options.

Hopefully this helps some but if not please tell me what I neglected to realize because I feel I am severely misunderstanding something about my diet and what I'm getting from it.

[maggiesfarm]

I didn't sit down and add it up but the food you posted doesn't look anywhere near as high as 3000 calories. The numbers you are getting online are probably correct; if you need to verify just look at the packaging and do the math yourself. Also there's no vegetables...

If I'm reading right, your max squat 3 sets of 5 is 135. I would just back down to 115, focus on form, and see if you can't push past 135 in a few weeks. Make sure you're getting low enough, and that your heels never leave the ground. Maybe flexibility is the issue? You would know best if that's the case.

If the bar hurts, that could also make it harder mentally to give 100%. For me, when the bar is low enough, it's very comfortable, but that's me. It takes some flexibility to get the bar lower, which you can train by holding on to a broom handle and slowly bringing it up and behind your body.

There are also bar pads and manta rays, and I have seen them help people squat better because they were more focused on what matters. Rippetoe might show up and yell at you though :/

Gonna take back what I said about cutting... you can if you want but you don't *need* to, and it seems like you're already eating very little. Some short stalls on SS are normal and you're supposed to drop the weight a bit and then push past it over the next few weeks. I doubt your squat will ultimately stay at 135 since I'm guessing that's less than even 1x your bodyweight. Just keep at it and be patient.

[Claykees]

Thanks...I don't know why I feel I'm bloating then if I'm not eating enough. Veggies I don't get enough of. When I do it is spinach and/or corn on the rice days...both give me indigestion but are the main veggies I like...if I don't have plans for the next few days haha

My body weight last time I checked was about 145-147. I had a PT and a friend look at my squat form and I have an issue with my knees bending slightly inward, when I'm trying to come UP from the squat...going down I look fine but at the bottom and then when I try to come up the knees angle inwards slightly so I lose balance and feel like I might fall and maybe I'm just afraid now. Might be more mental than anything but if it is physical I've read around here that it might be an adductor issue so I'm trying so static adductor stretches before bed now. Even squatting the bar alone I have that issue, I just never noticed it before because a) I never had a PT look at it and b) balance is much less important when the weight isn't providing any challenge. I definitely try to go super low though...so I'm alright there.

You seem to read my mind because I do get a weird twinging pain in my upper left back under my left trap occassionally the day after a squat and I don't know why. Always the exact same place (I highlighted it in another topic I made that nobody saw).

Bar pads I'll stay away from since I don't want to look like a wimp in the gym. I stopped wearing gloves recently because of that too.

Finally, if I shouldn't cut, how should I approach this situation about this feeling about bloating and having a 32 waist now (I measured accurately and it really is 31.5) when before I had a 29. Clearly I'm getting fat so eating more is not a good solution even though eating more is needed for recovery.

[tara19]

Finally, if I shouldn't cut, how should I approach this situation about this feeling about bloating and having a 32 waist now (I measured accurately and it really is 31.5) when before I had a 29. Clearly I'm getting fat so eating more is not a good solution even though eating more is needed for recovery.

You've made up your mind about cutting anyway.
No one on this forum is going to change it.
Just don't be upset if you don't get the results you are after.

[maggiesfarm]

I meant that pinching from the bar might distract or make you "shy" during the squat. But upper back pain the next day shouldn't happen. Another possibility is that you are keeping the bar too far from your body on the DL, and stressing your upper back then.

Eventually your squat and DL will outpace your bench, just keep at it.

I have an issue with my knees bending slightly inward, when I'm trying to come UP from the squat

I do that a little too, but only if I'm struggling. Pay attention to it during your warmup sets, and if you're doing this on every one of your work set reps, just back off the weight a little until you aren't. When you squat, think about pushing with your feet, down through your heels and a little bit outward.

Bar pads I'll stay away from since I don't want to look like a wimp in the gym. I stopped wearing gloves recently because of that too.

That's not a good reason.

And I dunno man, you look fairly lean already. I think that either way, you should continue training your squat and deadlift. What you are considering an excess of food is definitely not. I would try to get more lean meat and veggies in over the next couple of weeks and see what happens with your lifts... if you gain a pound, it's not like the world's gonna end. But what might happen instead is that you don't and you are able to push past the plateau.

[Claykees]

You've made up your mind about cutting anyway.
No one on this forum is going to change it.
Just don't be upset if you don't get the results you are after.

Actually I am very open minded. I recognize that the members helping me here (yourself included) have been doing this a lot longer than me. So I feed off the feedback you all give me just like before. I listened before about getting on a real program and I'm listening now. Probably my use of the word clearly was improperly placed in hindsight. You've both made it pretty clear cutting might not return favorable results. So I'll keep at this and make changes to improve my results. With that out of the way, are the macros/diet ratios I posted for you lacking in any department? Do you recommend I get a protein shake to up the protein levels? Obviously like mag said I need to get more serious about veggies too.

I meant that pinching from the bar might distract or make you "shy" during the squat. But upper back pain the next day shouldn't happen. Another possibility is that you are keeping the bar too far from your body on the DL, and stressing your upper back then.

Eventually your squat and DL will outpace your bench, just keep at it.

I do that a little too, but only if I'm struggling. Pay attention to it during your warmup sets, and if you're doing this on every one of your work set reps, just back off the weight a little until you aren't. When you squat, think about pushing with your feet, down through your heels and a little bit outward.



That's not a good reason.

And I dunno man, you look fairly lean already. I think that either way, you should continue training your squat and deadlift. What you are considering an excess of food is definitely not. I would try to get more lean meat and veggies in over the next couple of weeks and see what happens with your lifts... if you gain a pound, it's not like the world's gonna end. But what might happen instead is that you don't and you are able to push past the plateau.

The upper left back pain under my trap doesn't happen consistently. Just every now and then after the odd workout. Probably 2-3 times a month max this will happen. So don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be over-dramatic and make it into something it isn't. I just thought to mention it.

My deadlift is actually better than my bench right now but squat definitely is still the worst. Squat I am determined to make my best lift because of the difficulty I have with it. I seek the challenge of conquering it and making it my youknowwhat after I do. I'll do what you suggested next time I'm in the gym. I also am still battling with remembering to "engage" my core. It still is not second nature to me. From what you've said, I wouldn't be surprised if I actually am too focused on what could go wrong in an exercise rather than just finding a way to do it right.

Again, my reasoning with the barpads and gloves was just from reading around the forums. I kind of got influenced by the "real men don't do this" answers from guys with high rep power. Dumb I know, but it is what it is.

Thanks a lot for your suggestion at the end as well. So how does this sound: Start getting maybe 40g (maybe more) of the ~160g of carbs I have been getting from veggies instead of the grains I usually get most of my carbs from? Probably can do this through getting a bag of baby carrots and just carry it around throughout the day or something and cutting bread out of my diet (I've done it before no problem). Then maybe I should invest in getting a protein shake with maybe...50g of protein to up the protein levels from 125 to 175? Sound better? I think as you and tara have alluded to, cutting is not necessary, just reviewing my form, getting my mentality stronger, and altering the diet will be enough.

[maggiesfarm]

I think that all sounds fine. Whatever you choose, just reserve judgment for a week or two while you see what effect it's having. But I think you should see SS through a little longer, reset to break the plateau, and save the cut for a couple months from now.