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  1. #1
    "ThE IrOn GaMe" appleyard777's Avatar
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    Serms vs OTC PCT and gains kept

    Alright guys well I have done a few solo cycles dzine, and "the one". Both I did OTC PCT with pretty good results.

    I am wrapping up my hdrol/stanodrol cycle. I've dosed hdrol@75mg and stanodrol@600mg I'm on the end of week 5 with one week left.

    I already have my OTC PCT lined up but since I have a source for some nolva I'm thinking about getting some if the gains kept would be considerably better.

    Thoughts and opinions on if I should do a serm....
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  2. #2
    Registered User jdaring's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by appleyard777 View Post
    Alright guys well I have done a few solo cycles dzine, and "the one". Both I did OTC PCT with pretty good results.

    I am wrapping up my hdrol/stanodrol cycle. I've dosed hdrol@75mg and stanodrol@600mg I'm on the end of week 5 with one week left.

    I already have my OTC PCT lined up but since I have a source for some nova I'm thinking about getting some if the gains kept would be considerably better.

    Thoughts and opinions on if I should do a serm....
    it would keep you from developing a lovely set of breasts.

  3. #3
    Registered User _Smitty_'s Avatar
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    calories = gain retention.

    SERM/OTC PCT = recovery... which one you use is dependent upon how fast you wish to restore your natural hormonal production.

  4. #4
    Montreal CanAdian Militia ryanr623's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _Smitty_ View Post
    calories = gain retention.

    SERM/OTC PCT = recovery... which one you use is dependent upon how fast you wish to restore your natural hormonal production.
    True. Although the faster you can raise your natural test, the easier it will be to retain gains. SERMS dominate here.
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  5. #5
    "ThE IrOn GaMe" appleyard777's Avatar
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    I guess I'm asking if a serm can/will help in holding onto your gains better disregarding diet...
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  6. #6
    "ThE IrOn GaMe" appleyard777's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ryanr623 View Post
    True. Although the faster you can raise your natural test, the easier it will be to retain gains. SERMS dominate here.
    Makes sense thanks!
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  7. #7
    Corn Fed Operator Irish Iron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by appleyard777 View Post
    I guess I'm asking if a serm can/will help in holding onto your gains better disregarding diet...
    you could take the best PCT possible and still lose everything you gained if your diet is chit
    MFC Illuminati

  8. #8
    Registered User _Smitty_'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ryanr623 View Post
    True. Although the faster you can raise your natural test, the easier it will be to retain gains. SERMS dominate here.
    very true... but the diet will dictate what's kept even after homeostasis is restored.

    like, if i just took a booster and didn't eat enough or eat well, whatever results would be fleeting.

  9. #9
    "ThE IrOn GaMe" appleyard777's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Irish Iron View Post
    you could take the best PCT possible and still lose everything you gained if your diet is chit
    I completely agree but I was asking with diet being put to the side because im not worried about my diet. So basically if diet is spot on are you gonna retain more with an OTC PCT or a SERM.
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  10. #10
    "ThE IrOn GaMe" appleyard777's Avatar
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    During the cycle ive had macros as follows:

    4000 Calories/60g of fat/350-400g of carbs/400g of protein. All of these coming from whole grains and lean meats. Only non whole food protein source is 2 scoops a day.

    I plan to UP my calories during PCT and lift just as hard if not harder to make sure I keep the most I can.
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  11. #11
    Registered User _Smitty_'s Avatar
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    i've seen bloods showing T counts in the thousands during/after SERM usage... no OTC combination is going to come close to matching that.

  12. #12
    Are you Driven? Sldge's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _Smitty_ View Post
    i've seen bloods showing T counts in the thousands during/after SERM usage... no OTC combination is going to come close to matching that.
    How far into the thousands and what SERM was it?
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  13. #13
    Registered User _Smitty_'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sldge View Post
    How far into the thousands and what SERM was it?
    if memory serves, it was 1044 (the number appeared in my head when i was typing the above); definitely over 1000, but not higher than 1100... can't recall which SERM was used.

  14. #14
    Montreal CanAdian Militia ryanr623's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _Smitty_ View Post
    if memory serves, it was 1044 (the number appeared in my head when i was typing the above); definitely over 1000, but not higher than 1100... can't recall which SERM was used.
    I have seen a bunch over a thousand with torem.
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    Registered User Cape1's Avatar
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    The SERM route can be a good choice depending on the compound used during the cycle and its half-life. However, the BB.com Classic, "bro....you need Nolva" generic advice is retarded.

    While Tamoxifen works well for slightly speeding up recovery over what would happen naturally, it can be a problem if your cycle included a compound that is 19-nor derived or a progestin. It will certainly wake up LH and, hopefully, get the HPTA clicking again; however, NOlva will not only not prevent, but it can actually speed up Prog derived Gyno.

    I'm not saying any of this to freak anyone out. Just be aware of what you were using as a cycle and that from which it derives as a compound. You have to be very carefull with allot of these Pro-Steroids.

    This whole generic PCT thing, I beleive, came as a 'left-over' from people running AAS cycles. I guess everyone figured one size fits all here. I don't know.

    Nolva is a fine choice after a Testosterone/Dbol cycle; not so good after something like the old 1-AD or some of the newer 19-nor pro steroids.

    IN the end though. You PROBABLY DON"T NEED Pharm SERMS as PCT to a 4 week OTC cycle.... My quess is you would gain more from the PCT than the bottle of crap that you took over 4 weeks.

    Just be aware of what you are taking and why and don't listen to regurgitated advice past down over generations of bro-scientists'.
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by _Smitty_ View Post
    if memory serves, it was 1044 (the number appeared in my head when i was typing the above); definitely over 1000, but not higher than 1100... can't recall which SERM was used.
    Gotchya.
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by Cape1 View Post
    IN the end though. You PROBABLY DON"T NEED Pharm SERMS as PCT to a 4 week OTC cycle.... My quess is you would gain more from the PCT than the bottle of crap that you took over 4 weeks.
    .
    Are you saying you will gain more from nolva, than superdrol, epistane, alpha-1, X-tren or phera?
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    SERMs have been proven (anecdotally, from bloods I have seen) to bring you back to normal levels of operation quicker and more effectively than the OTC route. If you've got a source, USE IT.

    And before someone says that Nolvadex is carcinogenic, please remember that a 20/20/10/10 dosing scheme is hardly a sizable enough amount to cause cancer. Plus, you just took a steroid and shut down your HPTA. If you feel comfortable leaving the future of your body's endocrine system in the hands of some herbal extracts, by all means please go the OTC route.
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  19. #19
    ¯\o_(ツ)_o/¯ av1atic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ryanr623 View Post
    Are you saying you will gain more from nolva, than superdrol, epistane, alpha-1, X-tren or phera?
    hes talking about whatever OP took for OTC pct
    please respond

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    Originally Posted by ryanr623 View Post
    Are you saying you will gain more from nolva, than superdrol, epistane, alpha-1, X-tren or phera?
    No, not really. I was being a smart-ass because I'm not a big PS fan. I do recongize that some of this stuff is pretty potent as far as Orals go. Although, the market is littered with garbage too.
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    Originally Posted by FunkymonkAW View Post
    SERMs have been proven (anecdotally, from bloods I have seen) to bring you back to normal levels of operation quicker and more effectively than the OTC route. If you've got a source, USE IT.

    And before someone says that Nolvadex is carcinogenic, please remember that a 20/20/10/10 dosing scheme is hardly a sizable enough amount to cause cancer. Plus, you just took a steroid and shut down your HPTA. If you feel comfortable leaving the future of your body's endocrine system in the hands of some herbal extracts, by all means please go the OTC route.
    ^^ I agree with the basic attitude here. That being: if you're going to beat the hell out of your system with steroids (whatever name by which we call them), you really shouldn't be freaking out over taking a SERM.

    Here's what people need to know though. Your training/recovery/diet/lack of stress/Endocrine health etc. will play about a 80-90% role in how fast recovery takes place. PCT is a way to speed it up a little more (not a lot more). PCT helps to give you a little extra bounce out of that hole you can find yourself in immediately following a cycle. Actually recovery usually takes months.

    I've used Oral OTC pro-steroids and had blood work. I can tell you that a 6 week cycle of the Original Haladrol 50 along with Orastan-A (same compound as furazadrol - literally), had my Test level Low but not totally suppressed. In this case I probably really didn't even need PCT. My system and habbits would be enough.

    After a 20 week cycle of long estered Testosterone on the other hand, where your T levels are zero, PCT helps because you have to at least get the machinery working again. After that, again, it's months.

    All drugs have a risk. Asprin has a risk. You take asprin because the risk is very small and you have a head ache. Tamoxifen is Toxic. It probably ain't gonna kill you but if you don't need it, don't take it. 4 weeks of superdrol does not justify 4+ weeks of Tamoxifen.

    Opinion and mileage varies. To each his own. I'm just trying to lay down some logic for consideration.
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    so you dont need serm for sd ...

    ???
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    Originally Posted by Cape1 View Post
    4 weeks of superdrol does not justify 4+ weeks of Tamoxifen.

    So if you ran 4 weeks of SD, what would be your PCT of choice then out of curiosity?

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    Originally Posted by Cape1 View Post
    ^^ I agree with the basic attitude here. That being: if you're going to beat the hell out of your system with steroids (whatever name by which we call them), you really shouldn't be freaking out over taking a SERM.

    Here's what people need to know though. Your training/recovery/diet/lack of stress/Endocrine health etc. will play about a 80-90% role in how fast recovery takes place. PCT is a way to speed it up a little more (not a lot more). PCT helps to give you a little extra bounce out of that hole you can find yourself in immediately following a cycle. Actually recovery usually takes months.

    I've used Oral OTC pro-steroids and had blood work. I can tell you that a 6 week cycle of the Original Haladrol 50 along with Orastan-A (same compound as furazadrol - literally), had my Test level Low but not totally suppressed. In this case I probably really didn't even need PCT. My system and habbits would be enough.

    After a 20 week cycle of long estered Testosterone on the other hand, where your T levels are zero, PCT helps because you have to at least get the machinery working again. After that, again, it's months.

    All drugs have a risk. Asprin has a risk. You take asprin because the risk is very small and you have a head ache. Tamoxifen is Toxic. It probably ain't gonna kill you but if you don't need it, don't take it. 4 weeks of superdrol does not justify 4+ weeks of Tamoxifen.

    Opinion and mileage varies. To each his own. I'm just trying to lay down some logic for consideration.
    In your case, I'd agree that a SERM isn't necessary. However, I've seen multiple bloods on PHF where people running oral cycles at tried-and-true dosages of oral cycles, and had T levels under 100 (range 280-800 pg/nl) before starting PCT. There was even one instance where someone who ran a 10/20/20 of Superdrol ended up on TRT because his Nolva was bunk and his endocrine system refused to restart.

    I think we can all see the value in getting bloods done.
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    Originally Posted by frr View Post
    So if you ran 4 weeks of SD, what would be your PCT of choice then out of curiosity?


    4 weeks of SD will have your own natural production shut down.


    I wouldn't risk it with anything than a proper PCT after a steroid cycle.
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    Originally Posted by Cape1 View Post
    The SERM route can be a good choice depending on the compound used during the cycle and its half-life. However, the BB.com Classic, "bro....you need Nolva" generic advice is retarded.

    While Tamoxifen works well for slightly speeding up recovery over what would happen naturally, it can be a problem if your cycle included a compound that is 19-nor derived or a progestin. It will certainly wake up LH and, hopefully, get the HPTA clicking again; however, NOlva will not only not prevent, but it can actually speed up Prog derived Gyno.

    I'm not saying any of this to freak anyone out. Just be aware of what you were using as a cycle and that from which it derives as a compound. You have to be very carefull with allot of these Pro-Steroids.

    This whole generic PCT thing, I beleive, came as a 'left-over' from people running AAS cycles. I guess everyone figured one size fits all here. I don't know.

    Nolva is a fine choice after a Testosterone/Dbol cycle; not so good after something like the old 1-AD or some of the newer 19-nor pro steroids.

    IN the end though. You PROBABLY DON"T NEED Pharm SERMS as PCT to a 4 week OTC cycle.... My quess is you would gain more from the PCT than the bottle of crap that you took over 4 weeks.

    Just be aware of what you are taking and why and don't listen to regurgitated advice past down over generations of bro-scientists'.
    actually for any oct ph/ds i would have no issues using nolva. ummm you dont really know what youre talking about. a 4 week cycle can shut you completely down. how about i call the bottle of stuff you use crap too ok? anyways this last part you said is just retarded bull****.
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    Originally Posted by paulpker121 View Post
    so you dont need serm for sd ...

    ???
    You might; you might not. Personally I wouldn't take a SERM for SD only. But, then again, I wouldn't take an ORal only cycle. Oral only cycles are the epitome of retardedness. AND, NOT TO BE DISCOUNTED, if you're really 15, you shouldn't be taking any drugs period.
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    Originally Posted by frr View Post
    So if you ran 4 weeks of SD, what would be your PCT of choice then out of curiosity?
    I wouldn't run a 4 week Oral only cycle so I wont comment. I ran the Halo/orastan combo when I didn't know any better and did not use PCT. I was fine.

    Originally Posted by FunkymonkAW View Post
    In your case, I'd agree that a SERM isn't necessary. However, I've seen multiple bloods on PHF where people running oral cycles at tried-and-true dosages of oral cycles, and had T levels under 100 (range 280-800 pg/nl) before starting PCT. There was even one instance where someone who ran a 10/20/20 of Superdrol ended up on TRT because his Nolva was bunk and his endocrine system refused to restart.

    I think we can all see the value in getting bloods done.
    Everyone is different. I'm not claiming to know the Endocrine health of everyone on this board. For me personally, it was a non issue.

    Originally Posted by TMac26 View Post
    4 weeks of SD will have your own natural production shut down.

    It will? Ok. You may be right but I've never heard that from people who had actual Met Panels done. I've taken SD but never stand alone so I cannot comment specifically. However, I've taken other PS's and, while I was suppressed Post cycle, I was not reading T levels of single digits.

    I wouldn't risk it with anything than a proper PCT after a steroid cycle.
    That is wise. Wiser still would be not running oral only cycles. That's just my opinion though.

    Originally Posted by Dymethazine View Post
    actually for any oct ph/ds i would have no issues using nolva. ummm you dont really know what youre talking about. a 4 week cycle can shut you completely down. how about i call the bottle of stuff you use crap too ok? anyways this last part you said is just retarded bull****.

    I'm talking from first hand experience and having blood work done. I'm telling you what I would do and why. Rather than get snappy, why don't you think it through a bit. Do you have blood work showing that you were "completely shut down"? Do you know what "completely shut down" looks like? I'm not trying to call you to the carpet or be sarcastic. I'm actually asking a legit question.

    Heres the thing. There is a fair amount of bull-sh*t that flows around these board about PCT. Just yesterday I read a response touting tamoxifen as the cure all for PCT, without any regard for the compound for which it was intended to provide recovery. That it the quintescence of, as you put it, "retarded Bull****.

    I've been through the wringer with all this crap and then some; I've had multiple Metabolic Panels done; and, I have had multiple visits with my Endocrinologist. I'm not going to detail cycle experience for the World to see but I can tell you that I'm not a beginner with the topic at hand.

    So, all I will leave you guys with is this: Read up. Not on BB.com. Understand what PCT is exactly and what the different strategies and drugs are. Understand how those drugs impact overall health; but, more importantly, how they are likely to interact with remaining blood levels of the compound for which they are to provide therapy.

    Don't be this guy: "dude....you need Nolva......"

    That guy usually doesn't even know what "nolva" is. He just read 5000 threads, got brain-washed (actually a "light rinse" was probably all that was necessary) and regurgitated it.
    Last edited by Cape1; 01-14-2011 at 07:59 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Cape1 View Post

    4 weeks of superdrol does not justify 4+ weeks of Tamoxifen.

    Huh? Sorry but this is bad advice, superdrol is powerful and many times fully shuts people down. Not to mention the risk of gyno is high. Please take serm with a PH cycle and def SD

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    Originally Posted by Cape1 View Post
    I wouldn't run a 4 week Oral only cycle so I wont comment. I ran the Halo/orastan combo when I didn't know any better and did not use PCT. I was fine.
    the overwhelming majority of people running a 4 week oral cycle aren't going to be using test.
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