I'm a teen... but I've got a question for you more experienced bodybuilders

[Veteran_Gymnast]

I only do "natural" body workouts as I call them.. I use absolutely no weights except for my full-length sit-ups.... what do you guys think considering I'm 16? Any tips? I don't want to get too big and bulky.... I want to be as cut as possible with medium mass. any tips are of great help. Thanks!

[MiloMan]

1. You don't gain weight unless you eat sufficient calories to do so, no matter how much you lift.

2. Cut/definition/tone comes from having low bodyfat; the lower it is, the more cut/defined/toned you will be.

Think about this: Powerlifters in the lower weight classes (and many of the higher ones as well) are quite lean, lift heavy weights on a regular basis, but stay within their weight class - because they control their diet.

[Veteran_Gymnast]

thank you for posting a reply... any more posts would be appreciated.

I am still kinda freaked by lifting weights... I never have, but have not liked the results I see in others of my age that lift weights... fatty looking muscle.... bulky and ugly....

I guess I just need to do more reps, less weight...

[MiloMan]

Originally posted by Veteran_Gymnast
I am still kinda freaked by lifting weights... I never have, but have not liked the results I see in others of my age that lift weights... fatty looking muscle.... bulky and ugly....

I guess I just need to do more reps, less weight...

No, just CONTROL YOUR CALORIES if you don't want to gain weight. Bocybuilders often take in a large caloric surplus when attempting to bulk up. The add muscle and fat, then cut calories and remove the fat. High reps don't give make you cut/defined/toned.

Read this again:

-----------------
1. You don't gain weight unless you eat sufficient calories to do so, no matter how much you lift.

2. Cut/definition/tone comes from having low bodyfat; the lower it is, the more cut/defined/toned you will be.

Think about this: Powerlifters in the lower weight classes (and many of the higher ones as well) are quite lean, lift heavy weights on a regular basis, but stay within their weight class - because they control their diet.
------------------

Don't just look at it - understand it.

[Belle]

It's good that your keeping fit and you are looking quite good already without having to lift weight. I think one of the reasons why kids younger than yourself need to steer clear of weights or why they should not be used by kids is that it can affect long term height potential. You look to have reached that? Possibly you have done as much growing as your going to do upwards already as some grow faster than others, but I would not recommend body building for young children until after they have completed their height. The raising of androgens and GH in doing so would cause not only muscle growth but also faster bone growth. Whilst that sound good to some kids initially, it also means hormonal changes in the way of sex hormones and thats where premature puberty can occur. When puberty occurs, growth slows right down. So because weight lifting would bring on premature puberty it isn't really recommended for that reason to younger kids, or pro hormones for younger teens than yourself for that matter. When growth stops too early, you end up short stature instead because the epiphyseal plates close over at the end of the long bones in the arms and legs and stop growth. Lifting heavy would therefore certainly raise hormones than younger kids than yourself do not need.

You on the other hand are ok to lift weights if your growth is complete. Your fine to do it with weight and longer reps as you say. This may lean you out a little any way. Also without using weights and progressing, there is no challenge when you do a workout really.

[MiloMan]

Originally posted by Belle
I think one of the reasons why kids younger than yourself need to steer clear of weights or why they should not be used by kids is that it can affect long term height potential.

Pretty much everyone on this org chart would disagree with that (but what do they know...). E-mail them about it. They encourage youth weightlifting, and discount the "stunt growth" myth.

http://www.huskerpower.net/staff.html

[Belle]

I wish it were a myth but sadly it's fact MiloMan. There are two things that stunt a child growth. High levels of cortisol due to too much stress. This suppresses GH. The other is elevated levels of androgen and thus GH and other sex hormones which are capable of causing premature puberty. Both cause short stature in adulthood. One does this by supressing growth over the long term. The other does it by forcing fast growth and puberty and then stopping it prematurely. Certainly a child will end up being shorter than his biological parents where height is concerned.

My son is living proof of what elevated androgens do to bone growth. At aged 7 he had a bone age of a 3 yo because he was over treated with cortisol replacement. When they cut back the doses, he grew so fast that within a year he caught up those four years of lost growth believe it or not. His androgens where high towards the end of that growth spurt and it almost brought on premature puberty. He is now 11 yo and has a bone age of an 11 yo. So anyone allowing their child to do weights and knowing this is a possibility IMO is totally irresponsible.

The other week I saw a young boy in a center spread of a BB magazine who had done weight lifting. I actually felt quite sorry for him. He looked great, but I really feel he will be exposed to puberty a lot earlier and sadly once plates close over long bones, there is no such thing ironically as giving shots of GH therapy. The growth stops completely. So I'd have to ask the parents, "Is it really worth the risk when it is proven?"

There is a direct link with short stature and raised GH in kids and that they also started puberty earlier.


1: Horm Res 2001;56(1-2):45-50 Related Articles, Links


Psychological evaluation of young women after medical treatment for central precocious puberty.

Baumann DA, Landolt MA, Wetterwald R, Dubuis JM, Sizonenko PC, Werder EA.

Division of Endocrinology and Diabetology, University Children's Hospital, Zurich, Switzerland.

OBJECTIVE: This study aimed at the evaluation of the subjective experience and long-term behavioral and psychological effects of precocious puberty (PP). METHODS: 19 female patients who had been treated with GnRH agonists participated in a semistructured interview and completed two standardized checklists. Their parents completed the Child Behavior Checklist (CBCL). RESULTS: The CBCL yielded significantly elevated Internalizing and Total Behavior Problem scores. An elevated risk was found for patients with short adult stature and a relatively late onset of PP. The latter tended to neuroticism, to accentuation of their physical appearance, and felt significantly more insecure than age-related non-PP girls. CONCLUSION: Our findings suggest that PP can lead to specific behavioral problems, and that patients with a risk factor may need psychosocial support. Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel

PMID: 11815727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Diagnosis and management of precocious puberty.

Wheeler MD, Styne DM.

Department of Pediatrics, University of California, School of Medicine, Davis.

The onset of pubertal development before the age of 8 years in girls or 9 years in boys constitutes precocious puberty. There are numerous causes of precocious puberty, which can be classified as central or peripheral precocious puberty. Central precocious puberty results from premature activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis and thus presents with physical and hormonal findings similar to those found in normal puberty. Peripheral precocious puberty results from extrapituitary gonadotropin secretion or secretion of sex steroids independent of pituitary gonadotropins. All types of precocious puberty are characterized by rapid growth and advancement of skeletal age, leading to the paradox of the tall child becoming a short adult as a result of premature epiphyseal fusion. Long-acting GnRH agonists afford effective, selective, and reversible therapy of central precocious puberty without significant toxicity. GnRH agonists are not effective in managing the premature sexual maturation associated with peripheral precocious puberty, but a number of other agents have been used with some success. These agents include testolactone, ketoconazole, and medroxyprogesterone acetate. GnRH agonist treatment leads to an increase in predicted final height. To determine the true benefit of any of these agents in increasing ultimate height, there is a need for continuing studies in treated cohorts to follow growth patterns until adult stature is achieved.

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In these cases they are trying to STOP PP so that they can attain as much height for these children as possible. They do that with androgen blocking drugs and such. So it is anything but a myth.

[LadyLisa]

I have questions.......

My son started puberty on his own at age 9. I was concerned in the beginning, but as time goes on, his sexual maturity is still happening, but at a much slower rate than most others (IMO).

At age 12, he got the okay from his pediatrician to start weight resistance training - it was the dr.s idea - I didn't even mention it. He works out with me and hubby on our same 3 day split for about 7 months now. This appears to have neither accelerated nor diminished his growth.

I am very concerned about stunting his potential for height, and haven't really found any derogertory info on boys who have started puberty prior to the onset of lifting weights.

I would imagine that if his GH was elevated and he was at risk of short stature, that he'd be growing like a weed now and be in the latter stages of maturity. He is not - just the same pace as he always has been. What is your opinion? Can you point me in the right direction for research? The articles that you posted here really only pertain to the onset of PP through elevated GH. My son was a good 2- 2 1/2 yrs into it (puberty) when he started weight training.

TIA!

[Veteran_Gymnast]

Here is one thing I am starting to wonder?... Am I going to start to have to lift weights and get fat or is there a good way to get bigger and cut slowly without gaining unwanted fat?

[LadyLisa]

Just start lifting weights. You'll get newbie gains and burn some fat at the same time. Once your newbie gains stop, then re-evaluate your situation.

[Macattack]

Gymnast, i am no longer a natural BB and am on a cycle right now and honestly i have not gained one once of fat, matter of fact i have cut BF back around 10% in the last 2 months and gained muscle, this i attribute completely to my diet....and the type of stacked cycle i am on...

I think you would do well to lift some iron Bro, as lean as you are evey pound of muscle would look like 5 pounds dude, go for it just watch the diet closely and eat clean.

[MiloMan]

Originally posted by Belle
I wish it were a myth

Believe what you like; it's no skin off my nose.

[Belle]

Originally posted by LadyLisa
I have questions.......

My son started puberty on his own at age 9. I was concerned in the beginning, but as time goes on, his sexual maturity is still happening, but at a much slower rate than most others (IMO).

At age 12, he got the okay from his pediatrician to start weight resistance training - it was the dr.s idea - I didn't even mention it. He works out with me and hubby on our same 3 day split for about 7 months now. This appears to have neither accelerated nor diminished his growth.

I am very concerned about stunting his potential for height, and haven't really found any derogertory info on boys who have started puberty prior to the onset of lifting weights.

I would imagine that if his GH was elevated and he was at risk of short stature, that he'd be growing like a weed now and be in the latter stages of maturity. He is not - just the same pace as he always has been. What is your opinion? Can you point me in the right direction for research? The articles that you posted here really only pertain to the onset of PP through elevated GH. My son was a good 2- 2 1/2 yrs into it (puberty) when he started weight training.

TIA!

Hi There,

Aged 9 is quite early for a boy to start puberty. Well all I know is if it had started here, we would have been looking at drugs to slow or stop it put it this way. A lot of boys and girls are starting puberty early these days and if it isn't relevant to the ages that the biological parents started puberty, then you have to reflect on what is causing that. If you or your husband started puberty that early then there really is nothing you can do about it except treat any future siblings should it occur again for them if you want your chikldren to be taller than you or your first child. Especially so if a good height is not attained and the same thing starts to happen to any other siblings younger than he. It usually can occur for other reasons if he started puberty earlier than yourself or your partner. Some to mention are, hormones in food supply and water supply. Hormones due to the above mentioned or hormones due to a genetic conditions like my sons or something wrong with the pituitary.

Firstly the problems that caused the early puberty would have been around for longer than that. There would have been a raise in GH and other sex steroids leading up to the forced puberty and at that stage you may have had people commenting that you boy is tall for his age. In fact he may have been the tallest in his class. However, when puberty actually starts, that is when the epiphyseal plates start to close over the long bones and of course there is where growth in height starts to slow. So if your boy is doing weight lifting right now, he could produce lot's of GH and other sex hormones and therefore accelerate the process if anything IMO. I feel your Paed must be very inexperienced with this type of problem and has misinformed you somehow I guess. Not all Paeds understand the complexitiis of this stuff. Depends how tall your boy is now though really.

I'm sorry PP has happened for your child. What height is he now at aged 12? I can't understand why you Paed has allowed him to do weight lifting if he started puberty so early? You need to get his height and weight checked 6 monthly and other health checks. A child my sons age should be growing 5-6 cm's per year atleast according to his Paed, and he has been doing that since we adjusted his medications. Kids grow at different rates at different stages though so it's hard for them to pin point what is happening unless they check hormones in the blood also. For you I guess you will know if his growth stops majorly in the next year or so. If he was quick to hit puberty, then he will hit all the other stages much more quickly and at an accelerated rate than he other wise might.

I find it more difficult with Ashley these days because an 11 yo does not like letting you check his pubertal status. I did see changes in his pubic region at age 8yo. The hair is usually fine and downy in the other children and was in him, but there were subtle changes to his at that age when he had the rapid growth spurt and his bone age caught up with his chronological age. In light haired children it is more noticeable whennthere are changes than dark haired children I'd imagine. His thickened a little. It was halted when we got his medications (cortisol replacement) adjusted and when we started to dose him x4 times per day. I will have no idea what that rapid growth spurt affected until we see a problem in his growth really now because when they are on drugs that can stomp all over sex hormones it is difficult to tell whether that is halting the growth process, or whether it has stopped it but normal growth is happening. I'd say the growth spurt was detrimental for Ash because no child can grow so fast in 12 months really "bone wise" without being exposed to high levels of sex steroids and GH like I said---and that can start production of T from the gonads and doesn't always settle down when they fix the problem. It just slows the problem, like slowing down a video and watching it frame by frame instead.

As Ashley has got older than 7yo, he is reluctant to let either his Dad or myself check him out down there. No surprise really. I don't think I would have liked that at his age either. I hate to ask him as he already feels enough of a freak when the Doctor checks him out down below anyhow. They check his testicle size to find out how advanced he is by feeling the testicles and comparing that to a set of beads they have with different sized beads on shaped like testicles. We call them "The Rosaries" as a little giggle. He hates that and always come out of those exams blushing like a beetroot. I guess if you saw an Endo he could at the least check the pubertal status by checking the size of the testicles to see if you have anything to worry about because they are the most accurate really and blood tests to check the sex hormones etc.

I go by the arm pit odour and can literally smell it when he has the phases and know his med's are out. I don't let him wear anti perspirant for that reason, because if he got in the habit of wearing that, I would never pick it up. I see that even with a missed dose sometimes in the day after one. I also see a difference in his behaviour also as indicated in the second study. He is far more deceptive and bullies the other children here chronically at times like that. He has a deeper voice than he should have. He always sounds as if he is going through those voice changes lately that they do at puberty. We have bloods this week, but won't get results till we see the Paed in June though. He is only about 4ft 11" so it is a concern for us that his growth may stop prematurely now.

Go to Pub Med and just put the words "Precocious Puberty" in the search field at the top and I am sure it will throw up tons for you Lisa. In fact I just did this for you and if you go here there is
a page or two of it I think:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=PubMed

Hope it helps,

[Belle]

Originally posted by MiloMan
Believe what you like; it's no skin off my nose.

Perhaps you should have one of your kids suffer with a PP problem and then try scoffing at it? I don't appreciate you dressing it down here either because it matters when a child loses potential height because of a lack of forsight from parents not listening to Doctor's and Scientists whom have studied these things for years now. They know how it occurs in my books and that's all I care about. I am not worried about trying to either disprove it or prove it to you either because to my mind it isn't something you want to dabble with and doubt is it? A little tough if you do and it turns out to be correct in theory isn't it? Or at least it is for a child when growth stops prematurely. After all MiloMan, it's the child whose losing out in the end on a few cm's of height, NOT the parent. Especially when biological height is short to start with, it matters. I won't bother arguing with you because there really is no argument with TONS of study going into it over the years.

Perhaps the skin off your nose has been transplanted to the butt region to make your hide thicker?

[Belle]

Here is one that is interesting. It seems a tot was exposed to his father's testosterone cream?

1: J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab 2003 Jan;16(1):107-10 Related Articles, Links


Precocious puberty secondary to topical testosterone exposure.

Franklin SL, Geffner ME.

Mattel Children's Hospital at UCLA, Los Angeles, CA, USA.

We report a case of pronounced virilization, including marked penile and pubic hair growth, accelerated height velocity and skeletal maturation, and increased muscle mass in a 2.67 year-old boy resulting from presumed inadvertent, long-term exposure to a topical testosterone cream being used by his father.

****************************************

Possibly if Dad puts the cream on arms or hands and then touches the child in some way? Not sure how the child would have been exposed there, unless bathing with Dad? My sons have done that at times any way. But coming into contact with a cream every now and again with t in it or being exposed to such in your blood due to elevated levels internally is not much different.

[Belle]

Lisa see below:

I think really if your boy started puberty earlier than normal, you need to get him under a Paed Endo and have him checked regularly. The study below indicates other studies done in boys whom have started puberty earlier and it seems other hormones such as insulin can be affected. I don't know the reason why your boy started puberty early, but they consider 9yo as premature really and there are obviously reasons why this has happened for him that need to be monitored besides growth.

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002 Dec;87(12):5604-9 Related Articles, Links


Insulin sensitivity and the insulin-like growth factor system in prepubertal boys with premature adrenarche.

Denburg MR, Silfen ME, Manibo AM, Chin D, Levine LS, Ferin M, McMahon DJ, Go C, Oberfield SE.

Department of Pediatrics, Division of Pediatric Endocrinology, Columbia University, College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, New York 10032, USA.

Girls with premature adrenarche (PA), similar to women with polycystic ovarian syndrome, display alterations in the IGF system, may have impaired insulin sensitivity, and demonstrate unfavorable lipid profiles. Girls with PA are also at increased risk for functional ovarian hyperandrogenism. Metabolic studies in boys with PA, however, are limited. The objective of this study was to determine whether boys with PA show alterations in insulin sensitivity and the IGF system. We studied an ethnically heterogeneous group of 19 prepubertal boys: 11 with PA (age, 8.2 +/- 0.7 yr; body mass index (BMI)-Z score, 1.8 +/- 1.1) and 8 controls (age, 7.9 +/- 0.8 yr; BMI-Z score, 1.2 +/- 1.0). Fasting levels of glucose, insulin, proinsulin (P(0)), hemoglobin A1c, testosterone, SHBG, delta4-androstenedione, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, LH, FSH, IGF-I, IGF-binding protein-1, IGF-binding protein-3, free IGF-I, and lipids were measured. Ten of 11 boys with PA and six of eight controls underwent standard oral glucose tolerance testing. The insulin response to this test was measured by the insulin area under the curve. Measures of insulin sensitivity were calculated as the fasting glucose to insulin ratio, quantitative insulin sensitivity check index, and composite insulin sensitivity index. All values were adjusted for BMI-Z score. Total IGF-I, P(0), ratio of P(0) and fasting insulin level, and log insulin area under the curve were higher, and SHBG was lower in the boys with PA, compared with controls. Decreased insulin sensitivity was suggested by decreased composite insulin sensitivity index. A trend toward greater triglycerides was observed in the boys with PA, compared with the controls. Prepubertal boys with PA show differences in the IGF system and decreased insulin sensitivity, independent of obesity, as observed in girls with PA. These findings suggest that both boys and girls with PA should be monitored for the development of insulin resistance and associated complications, including diabetes mellitus and cardiovascular disease.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Best

Val

[LadyLisa]

Thanks for the info. I'm a reading fool this afternoon!

I'm not so sure he fits the PP mold. I know he was 9yo when I noticed early pubic hair, but he could've been almost 10. There is no genetic reason for him to start so early (me and DH were pretty normal - me on the earlier side of normal). He has seen 3 different peds that have just said he was an early bloomer. Growth has been steady - not even any growth spurts. He is 5'4" at 12 1/2yo now. His voice hasn't begun to change and he still has plenty of room for growth "down there". ;0) I honest to God believe he is going to drag this out much longer than most boys and get his growing in. I remember my puberty - seems like one day I noticed pubic hair then BAM, it was all over pretty quickly. At my son's age, I was just a couple of inches away from my present height and had a 36C bosom!

I'll keep reading. I'm think I'm gonna go ahead and see his ped just to go over my concerns and see what we can find out.

Thanks for all your info!

[Belle]

I think they class it as early if it crops up before the age of 8 in girls and before the age of 9 in boys. So if it was 9 yo and after for your boy, they possibly would consider it normal? I myself would not be concerned if he has not had any large growth spurts and has always been of average height in his class? We had problems at 8 yo but like I said we nailed it in time I think and adjusted meds. Ashley will end up on average 5cm shorter than either myself or his biological father whom was only 5 ft 6." I am 5 ft 2." That's according to survey's they have done in these kids. That's why I switched dosing regimes. I want him to be taller than myself really or his sister to the same Father but it's not in my control. He is bound to be shorter due to being exposed to both flip sides of the coin for the whole length of his childhood, but hopefully, he will at least pass 5ft 2" for me. His step father is 6 ft odd so his other brothers will all take after their father---I can see it now. I just didn't want Ashley to feel like an odd ball. Very hard really on guys that wind up short. Not so bad for girls.

I guess there are some kids that can start earlier, but for medical purposes they draw certain llines. I did read an interesting study that said puberty was starting earlier and earlier in boys as times advanced and some theories around why it's happened on the DHEA home page. In fact there is a lot of interesting stuff there for anyone interested in dhea that you can read if you just do a search for dhea on Google. They are generally early to hit everything else also where growth is concerned if they hit puberty too early.

I think your boy sounds normal given the info below, and like your Doctor says an early developer? That kind of puts my mind at rest as Ash is now 11 yo and I can say he has not hit puberty as such yet, (or atleast not since we last had him examined by his Paed last year!) so hopefully there is still some good growth spurts in him yet. Could be the med's holding puberty off though? So thank you for sharing really. LOL! Here is some useless info about pubertal stages in boys to set your mind at rest.


Five Stages of Puberty - Guys

1 Normal Age Range: 9-12, Average: about 10
Male hormones are becoming active, but there are hardly, if any, outside signs of development. Testicles are maturing, and some boys start a period of rapid growth late in this stage.

2 Normal Age Range: 9-15, Average: 12-13
Testicles and scrotum begin to enlarge, but penis size doesn't increase much. Very little, if any, pubic hair at the base of the penis. Increase in height and change in body shape.

3 Normal Age Range: 11-16, Average: 13-14
Penis starts to grow in length, but not much in width. Testicles and scrotum still growing. Pubic hair starts to get darker and coarser and is spreading towards the legs. Height growth continues and body/face shape look more adult. Voice begins to deepen (and crack). Some hair around the anus grows.

4 Normal Age Range: 11-17, Average: 14-15
Penis width increases, as well as length. Testicles and scrotum still growing. Pubic hair begins to take adult texture, although covers a smaller area. Most boys have first ejaculations. Underarm hair develops. Facial hair increases on chin and upper lip. Voice gets deeper and skin gets more oily.

5 Normal Age Range: 14-18, Average: around 16
Nearing full adult height and physique. Pubic hair and genitals have adult appearance. Facial hair grows more completely and shaving may begin now or soon.

During the late teens and early twenties, some men grow a bit more and develop more body hair, especially chest hair.

[Veteran_Gymnast]

I've decided to stick with natural workouts... I tried weights today.... I just don't enjoy it and I feel really really uneasy about it.... and at least this way, whether it is true or not, I won't stunt my growth. Weights have never been my thing anyways... Thanks for all the advice!!!

If anyone wants to contribute and weightless workouts go to the teen BB board, read my "The Official Weightless Workout Thread" and add any that I didn't not include.

Thanks all!

[Macattack]

Hey gymnast i wouldn't wanna fight ya, you'd probablynail me ten times before i new what was happening, good luck man its all good your in great shape little Bro....

[Belle]

He is too! I don't think he needs weights just yet. All the 16 yo girls will be happy enough with him right now hey vinni? LOL!

[TwoWalks]

Originally posted by Belle
Perhaps you should have one of your kids suffer with a PP problem and then try scoffing at it? I don't appreciate you dressing it down here either because it matters when a child loses potential height because of a lack of forsight from parents not listening to Doctor's and Scientists whom have studied these things for years now. They know how it occurs in my books and that's all I care about. I am not worried about trying to either disprove it or prove it to you either because to my mind it isn't something you want to dabble with and doubt is it? A little tough if you do and it turns out to be correct in theory isn't it? Or at least it is for a child when growth stops prematurely. After all MiloMan, it's the child whose losing out in the end on a few cm's of height, NOT the parent. Especially when biological height is short to start with, it matters. I won't bother arguing with you because there really is no argument with TONS of study going into it over the years.

Perhaps the skin off your nose has been transplanted to the butt region to make your hide thicker?

Belle all this information is fantastic. Your son suffered PP because a "Doctor" the very expert you are speaking of "over treated your 3 year old with Cortesol. The whole topic is responding with examples of "Premature or early puberty". My question is: Why would this relate to a person lifting weights at 16 years old? Are there studies to indicate that a 16 year old would suffer loss of growth because of lifting weights?

If the increase from weight training at 16 have the same effect as PP, then would this not also equate to any type of hard work or exercise? So to protect "children until they are 20 years old" and guarantee it not to happen, we should not allow them to work, ride bicycles or do any type of exercise.

Is there some reason that every time someone does not agree with the "wisdom and insight of Belle" that the post must regress to a personal attack such as stated above. For my part it sure takes away a lot of credibility of the person that keeps attacking in such a manor when ever someone is of a different view.

And just for the record, I have a son that suffered from PP and only got to be 5'3" he did not lift weights. I also doubt that your 3 year old lifted weights. My family is fairly short folks averaging about 5'6" and I am the only one in my family that lifted weights, first beginning when I was 15 years old and I am the tallest person in my family.

[Belle]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TwoWalks
Belle all this information is fantastic. Your son suffered PP because a "Doctor" the very expert you are speaking of "over treated your 3 year old with Cortesol. The whole topic is responding with examples of "Premature or early puberty". My question is: Why would this relate to a person lifting weights at 16 years old? Are there studies to indicate that a 16 year old would suffer loss of growth because of lifting weights?

Raised hormones sex hormones that occur in weight lifting and also the cortisol levels being spiked a lot in serious athletics performed at this age is commonly associated with short stature in adulthood. If the childs body is always recovering from that, it has little left evergy wise to put into growth where cortisol levels are concerned. Some BB kids may make sessions to long tapping into that. Others may have raised androgens after lifting heavy and raised sex hormones can stimulate puberty. At 16 yo in some cases they are still growing upwards Two Walks. Especially those that were "late bloomers" so it is difficult to tell an I would give the same advice to a 16 yo in that case. If you read the stages of puberty, growth can sometimes not be complete until aged 20 yo. There are studies referring to strenuous sport and exercises at puberty. One here for you:

1: Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Aug;72(2 Suppl):521S-8S Related Articles, Links


Growth and pubertal development in children and adolescents: effects of diet and physical activity.

Rogol AD, Clark PA, Roemmich JN.

University of Virginia Health Sciences Center Charlottesville, USA. arogol@insmed.com

The longitudinal growth of an individual child is a dynamic statement of the general health of that child. Measurements should be performed often and accurately to detect alterations from physiologic growth. Although any single point on the growth chart is not very informative, when several growth points are plotted over time, it should become apparent whether that individual's growth is average, a variant of the norm, or pathologic. ****tic growth and maturation are influenced by several factors that act independently or in concert to modify an individual's genetic growth potential. Linear growth within the first 2 y of life generally decelerates but then remains relatively constant throughout childhood until the onset of the pubertal growth spurt. Because of the wide variation among individuals in the timing of the pubertal growth spurt, there is a wide range of physiologic variations in normal growth. Nutritional status and heavy exercise training are only 2 of the major influences on the linear growth of children. In the United States, nutritional deficits result from self-induced restriction of energy intake. That single factor, added to the marked energy expenditure of training and competition for some sports, and in concert with the self-selection of certain body types, makes it difficult to identify the individual factors responsible for the slow linear growth of some adolescent athletes, for example, those who partake in gymnastics, dance, or wrestling.

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I refer back to my son in this instance because in him having cortisol replacement and also periods of over production of the anabolic hormones when not on enough replacement, I know the effects of both in children upon growth. I think it's very pertinent. In respect to his health and treatment he was over treated at aged 3 yo when switched to tablets from suspension which was more precise in dosing. That is because they don't make hydrocortisone tablets in smaller dosages and because the Paediatrician didn't think for me to split them or dose anymore than x2 a day 5mg. It's now known that they should be dosed more often (x3 per day) as the biological half life of hydrocortisone is only 6-8 hours, but at that time they knew little about that. A study done in 2000 by some UK Doctors tested the bioavailability of the drugs on these children found that they were best not being given a large dose of cortisol at 10pm at night when cortisol is meant to be lower to allow for GH to kick in. Which as you can appreciate no Doctor would have been able to know that until an official study is done. There are breakthroughs all the time.

He was also under treated by one Doctor whom was not an Endocrinologist and whom gave me the impression he knew what he was doing. Said he had other patients. I later found one was short stature, and the other was a small baby. What I did not appreciate about this Doctor was that felt he could control my son with only 6 monthly testing and one blood test on just 17 OHP and not the standard x6 that other children are still receiving still in other parts of New Zealand and Internationally. We've had ONE really bad Doctor and a few that do not listen to my concerns. In not checking his bloods and height enough, he missed the fact that my son had outgrown his dose and his growth accelerated so much due to that, that his bone age situation reversed within 12 months. However, the level of hormone he was exposed to made changes that cannot be reversed and it robs these kids of a few cm's in height. I am only telling you this now because even I appreciate how important and relevant studies are to moving forwards where children and health is concerned. Healthy or otherwise. At that time I knew very little as a parent and the condition was rare. Only ONE other child in the whole of the Manawatu with this condition so I felt like this Doctor had taken total advantage of my isolation and not knowing any better. In short what he did in cutting back on health checks was abominable. Hence my lack of respect for "some" Doctors. They arn't all passing their exams with flying colours as you can appreciate. Others I have met are absolutely DEDICATED to making treatment better for such kids, not hell bent on making it ten times worse as he did. I as a parent was ignorant at that time and did not have the internet so as you can appreciate when I did, I learned a lot and also learned why my son had had so many problems. It doesn't take much to skim over his records and check these things and reflect several years later. I felt very angry and robbed of knowledge. It was devastating to make those discoveries actually when all along I had had feelings that we shouldn;t do this and raised them with Doctor's and they had just brushed them off. "Oh it's because YOUR short--that's why HE is short." **** like that at EVERY appointment, and no one even LOOKING at the bone age x-rays and asscoitaiting the steroids with his lack of growth. 4 years I had that and they never listened to me. So excuse me for reading a little too much now into these things but I thought it was important to learn what to do to "avoid" problems for him as much as possible and avoid it for other kids like him. I changed Doctors, grew a brain and started reading the **** they study and publish on PubMed.

REST BELOW

[Belle]

If the increase from weight training at 16 have the same effect as PP, then would this not also equate to any type of hard work or exercise? So to protect "children until they are 20 years old" and guarantee it not to happen, we should not allow them to work, ride bicycles or do any type of exercise.

Kids are ok with physical activity Two Walks just as long as they are not at very sensitive times in their growth stages and over doing the physical activity beyond the norms. Also some children push themselves too hard or are pushed towards doing this more than they should really be and have no idea how it will impact upon their growth and height later. There are normal activities and sport levels and then there are the kids that are at the track or gym every morning at 6am or whatever and more often even. I am just relaying what the studies say.

Is there some reason that every time someone does not agree with the "wisdom and insight of Belle" that the post must regress to a personal attack such as stated above. For my part it sure takes away a lot of credibility of the person that keeps attacking in such a manor when ever someone is of a different view.

I can see we all don't agree--I never expected that to happen...sigh. However, I don't exactly feel that MiloMan gave any support here for his argument FOR weight training at an early age. If anything there was sod all posted here except sarcasm and we needed the opposite argument here really not that. If you have studies that prove these things are ok for teenagers then by ALL means post them to balance the argument. It would have been nicer to post his studies proving these things were ok and safe for kids to partake in without it impacting upon their full height potential wouldn't it? My thoughts right now are that you resent me a great deal for posting on my knowledges in this area for some reason or even on the keto thread. I have no idea why and I don't really want to have an idea why. Possibly because I have had some disagreements with Diane whom you hold as quite dear to you. That is fair enough, but would appreciate you not demeaning me on the board when I am just trying to post facts and be helpful or help other's avoid illness and health problems or such. I don't expect others to always agree with me, but it would be a lot more interesting if they where like IPR and put the points forward in an educated way with studies, than getting personal as you seem to always do when I post studies and info. I only EVER get personal and sarcastic with people when I see them post sarcastically. I don't know how you where educated but in my neck of the woods and in the UK when you deal a personal salvo or are dishing out sarcasm and anger, all it get's you in return is sarcasm and anger. I posted here originally to educate and then two people jumped in with sarcastic comments as I perceive it FIRST before I resorted to sarcasm in return. I am sure you would have reacted just the same way. I mean you react here when you wern't even involved in that exchange so what does that say?


And just for the record, I have a son that suffered from PP and only got to be 5'3" he did not lift weights. I also doubt that your 3 year old lifted weights. My family is fairly short folks averaging about 5'6" and I am the only one in my family that lifted weights, first beginning when I was 15 years old and I am the tallest person in my family.

If your child had PP then it's just AS WELL he didn't lift weights Two Walks as he would have been SHORTER than 5ft 3"for one. Something he can thank you for hey? There are OTHER medical conditions that cause premature puberty as I well outlined here to you. I merely suggested that weight lifting can be one cause of premature puberty. My sons illness and other kids having other conditions can be other causes besides weight lifting. I don't know anymore about what caused your sons PP than you want to know here a slightest jot about what caused my son to head in that direction. But it does not remove the fact that PP can be either delayed by excessive sport or brought on by raising anabolic hormones which are sex hormones and can stimulate higher levels of GH than would otherwise be available to that child at that age that they are at. It can thus stimulate early puberty in that way and rapid growth spurts that bring that child closer to the stage where bone plates close over long bones and stop growth prematurely.

I didn't even imply that every child that has had early puberty must have been lifting weights. As far as you are concerned, you could have completed most part of your growth in height at aged 15 and not had much left anyway to worry about. As I stated here, different children grow at different rates in different stages and I cautioned people therefore because of my knowledges in the whole issue. or am I not allowed to do that here without some people feeling it is an issue? I'd like to think we can do these things without this attitude of yours here or Milomans. I am using my experience and all I know about growth and what affects it in the way of over or under production of certain hormones. That's all.

No one knows at what stage their child is at or if they still have time or some substantial growth left in them at any particular age or whether they are an early bloomer or late or what. If I were you I'd consider my self lucky I had grown whilst doing weights at aged 15 yo, but then this guy here isn't even interested in weights just yet is he? That is up to him to decide after weighing up the pro's and con's. No pro's seem to have been placed here by you guys for him to get a balanced debate so he has wisely chosen to AVOID weights for now. I am sure if you have stuff that can convince him otherwise though, he may have been able to choose another path.

[CROWLER]

Originally posted by TwoWalks

Is there some reason that every time someone does not agree with the "wisdom and insight of Belle" that the post must regress to a personal attack such as stated above. For my part it sure takes away a lot of credibility of the person that keeps attacking in such a manor when ever someone is of a different view.

I learned a lesson when I first started posting in this section.

I now pick and choose how and to who I respond to.

It is not right but I choose not to get in to keyboard fights here.

I now to limit my posts to certain people by just making suggestions, add some IMOs and little smileys. My blood pressure thanks me and I am a happier person over all.

[Belle]

Well I have tried to steer clear of "certain people" all week, but they just can't do the same thing CROWLER. I don't ask for everyone to goddamn agree with everything I say. Try posting something educational to BALANCE IT. If I read a lot it is ONLY because I have had BAD experience with one Doctor and don't want it happening again for any kid. Same with other health issues in the keto thread. My intentions are honourable every single time and then you get some one post sarcastically and all hell breaks lose. If I hadn't bothered to learn as much as I have my son would bhave been a bloody dwarf at aged 16 yo no doubt! Atleast now he stands a chance of us squeezing some decent height out of him. They say ignorance is bliss, but to be honest, I'd rather KNOW these things than be feeling crap years later because I didn't know this stuff and it was ALL at my fingertips.


I really have no clue why simple "educated" information would make anyones blood boil? That's all I posted. Then you get the odd person being sarcastic. What's that? Tactless that's what. I am absolutely disgusted with what Two Walks has posted to be honest. It's no better to anything that I posted and yet he feels somehow it might be? LOL! Yeh sure!!!!!

[TwoWalks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belle
My thoughts right now are that you resent me a great deal for posting on my knowledges in this area for some reason or even on the keto thread.
Belle I do not resent you or any one else on here for that matter. On the Keto thread our view difference was about the treatment of epolepsy and the Keto diet. I did not and do not feel that because something is used for a medical condition that it applies to normal people and bodybuilding. What I had a problem with was the tone of the posting that had gotten started by a number of people and that it was not answering questions about Bodybuilding and Keto.

Possibly because I have had some disagreements with Diane whom you hold as quite dear to you. That is fair enough, but would appreciate you not demeaning me on the board when I am just trying to post facts and be helpful or help other's avoid illness and health problems or such.

Diane is a big girl and able to take care of herself. She also knows that I think it is wrong when she responds that way and that I feel the same no matter who is doing it. I did not demean you on this board or any other time. I am just as capable of saying things like you reference to Miloman as anyone else is, but what is the point of it?

[B]I merely suggested that weight lifting can be one cause of premature puberty.
[B]
I didn't even imply that every child that has had early puberty must have been lifting weights.


I am using my experience and all I know about growth and what affects it in the way of over or under production of certain hormones. That's all.


Infact I was not attacking you but asking you "If there are any studies that show lifting weights would affect the growth of a 16 year old. Of course this question is based on a belief that the person has already reached puberty. If they have not then the sited studies would apply.


I am sure if you have stuff that can convince him otherwise though, he may have been able to choose another path.

I for one was not trying to convince him to lift weights, infact I do not try to convinc anyone to do that. My whole imput on this topic was asking "You" if there was a study you know of that implies the results of lifting at 16 could result in growth loss.

[Belle]

I have to say here I do feel as if your resentful in the last part of your first post on this thread. That is MY perception of it. I also perceived that MiloMan had decided to dismiss my thoughts and the information out there on the effects of weight lifting in children before he even tried to understand why it occurs. It's almost like all the studies I posted herein and knowledge I posted just went over his head. Also that he cared little about it either. By all means expose you kids to this stuff, but for goodness sake, please refrain from advising others that it s okay for their kids when you a.) have no study to say it is and b.) you have no clue how it will affect anothers child other than your own or your experiences from childhood.

I have a lot of knowledge about growth and these hormones and in some repsects I have more knowledge than a lot of Doctors out there. That's not a self advertisement either. It's quite true. A lot of Doctors haven't even read or studied 1/10th of what I have read or studied in this regard because their interest in knowing about it is simply not the same as mine.

Thanks for posting anyway to try to dispel any thoughts I had about things but I feel this is a real problem to be honest. Has been right from the word go and has therefore been one of the reasons why I cannot get on with some people on this board. I'm not that green that I'd think we COULD all get on. As it happens a lot of the people that show a dislike for me--I don'' t particularly like them either. It comes across in posts and that is why it may come across to you in my posts. You KNOW when someone approves of you and feels your ok. You also know when they don't. The key to that is also in what they DON'T say as much as what they DO say most of the time. Then how they talk to other's, even when other's are no better themselves in this respect where it comes to keeping arguments off the board.

I try to be constructive and be knowledgeable and help folks here. Post my views as other's post theirs. I'm not here to be clique with the odd person or group of people. I am here to interact with all who use the forum. Constructively preferably. I may have known little about lifting weights, but I excel in other areas that apply here on the forum, and I apply that in my posts. I also learn from other's in the process. Even yesterday I learned from Lisa that her son is in puberty earlier than mine depsite my boy's problems and it set my mind at rest for ONE aspect of my worries about my son and in my life. So this thread did more for me yesterday than ANYONE here could have imagined. Even if it wasn't relevant to the 16 yo that started it or you or MiloMan or anyone else, what counts is that three or four or even more people ended up being MORE educated than they were before it started, and that's all that counts in my book. Even if it DID wind up going slightly off topic.

[TwoWalks]

With everything placed aside:

Do you know if there are any studies that show adverse effects of weight training on teens 15 or older based on hormone imbalance?

I already know that if using too heavy of weights that it can have adverse effects on joints and tendons.

[Belle]

You could check Pub Med. Just input "Sports and Growth in children" and I am sure it will throw up tons of study. On a 15 yo that has already grown some considerable amount the effect would be negligble. In some that are in the early stages still it would affect them. I say that because I know that there is no difference between cortisol or anabolics being raised by the body itself or the ones we put in our mouths, i.e. the drugs my son takes. So having seen those two hormones affect my sons growth tremendously, I know that they would cause stunted growth if high due to excessive sports. That or cause stunted growth when the anabolic hormones are raised beyond what they should be at the time the child is doing them.

You only have to look at how they impact on muscle growth and then realise that an adult only has to worry about muscle growth. A child is still growing in height, and any imbalance of those hormones on a daily basis would affect the growth either way. Most kids are active I realise, but sometimes, being involved in something sport wise excessively day in and day out will cause these problems. For some like I said it may not be a problem as they may have done a lot of their growing before they engage in the particular sport, or their parents may have been tall and even if they lose a few cm's it won't much matter as they will still be a good height.

However, I am prime example. I am shorter than both my father and mother and was fanatical about gymnastics in my childhood. I trained all the time. I wound up 4cm's shorter than my parents. My puberty was late actually and I believe that that was due to higher cortisol levels which would have certainly had some negative affect on how much growth hormone I had floating around. The stress does not have to be through increased physical activity, it can also be through other stresses such as bullying on a constant level and also maybe problems at home for the child. It all ties in with body fat. A girl especially has to reach a certain level of BF before she menstruates. Now if BF is kept down then puberty is delayed.

1: J Physiol Anthropol Appl Human Sci 2003 Mar;22(2):97-104 Related Articles, Links


Relationship between Change in BMI with Age and Delayed Menarche in Female Athletes.

Fujii K, Demura S.

Health Science, General Education, Aichi Institute of Technology.

Body mass index (BMI) is widely used as an index of obesity in people from the school age children to adults. However, the relationship between the change in BMI with age and the coming of menarche has not been discussed as there are few reports on the changes in BMI with age. In this study, the change in BMI with age was examined by applying the wavelet interpolation method (WIM), and a critical period for body fat in terms of the coming of menarche was estimated from the growth velocity. We investigated delayed menarche according to the influence of stress in athletes by comparing delayed menarche between athletes and non-athletes in relation to the critical period. Data were obtained from 144 female athletes in their first year at university in the Tokai area, all of whom had competed in a national sports competition in high school (athlete group). Health examination records showing these subjects' heights and weights from the first grade of elementary school to the final year of high school (1984-1995) were collected and BMI was calculated for each grade. Ages at menarche were ascertained from questionnaires. A control group of 73 non-athletes was similarly examined. The age at maximum peak velocity (MPV) derived from the growth (aging) distance curve of BMI was determined in the control group to be 11.96+/-0.97 years old. This age at MPV of BMI was almost the same as the age at menarche (12.11+/-0.93 years old). Therefore, this age at MPV of BMI is estimated to be the critical period of body fat for the coming of menarche. The interval between the age at MPV of BMI and age at menarche was 0.74+/-1.30 years in the athlete group and 0.15+/-0.81 years in the control group, so there was a significant difference (P<0.01) between the two groups. It is suggested that the delayed menarche in athletes is influenced by the stress of regular sports training.
************************************************** **

Now of course the other hormone quite high as I said is cortisol which is infamous for stomping on not just the hormones responsible for fat depositing or menstruation, but also GH and anabolics which are essential for growth. Essential only in the right amounts though. Too much of those and a child grows too fast and puberty can be brought forward. That is where the plates close over the long bones and stunt the growth from then onwards. I'm talking from about around 9 yo here, but if a 15 yo is a late bloomer and still has a few cm's of growth in him, it would stunt that in either scenario.

On the dhea home page there is some interesting stuff about kids hitting puberty earlier and they linked it to possibly hormones in meat to fatten and beef up cattle that they use now? However, they don't use hormones everywhere, and some children have had PP that was not connected to that. There are many possibilities for causes of PP and stunted growth and it's not always possible to isolate any one cause, but stress is a factor, either physical and self inflicted as in sport or stress at school etc and beyond the childs control.

1: Horm Res 2003;59(4):161-79 Related Articles, Links


Pediatric stress: hormonal mediators and human development.

Charmandari E, Kino T, Souvatzoglou E, Chrousos GP.

Pediatric and Reproductive Endocrinology Branch, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md., USA.

Stress activates the central and peripheral components of the stress system, i.e., the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis and the arousal/sympathetic system. The principal effectors of the stress system are corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), arginine vasopressin, the proopiomelanocortin-derived peptides alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone and beta-endorphin, the glucocorticoids, and the catecholamines norepinephrine and epinephrine. Appropriate responsiveness of the stress system to stressors is a crucial prerequisite for a sense of well-being, adequate performance of tasks and positive social interactions. By contrast, inappropriate responsiveness of the stress system may impair growth and development, and may account for a number of endocrine, metabolic, autoimmune and psychiatric disorders. The development and severity of these conditions primarily depend on the genetic vulnerability of the individual, the exposure to adverse environmental factors and the timing of the stressful event(s), given that prenatal life, infancy, childhood and adolescence are critical periods characterized by increased vulnerability to stressors. The developing brain undergoes rapid growth and is characterized by high turnover of neuronal connections during the prenatal and early postnatal life. These processes and, hence, brain plasticity, slow down during childhood and puberty, and plateau in young adulthood. Hormonal actions in early life, and to a much lesser extent later, can be organizational, i.e., can have effects that last for long periods of time, often for the entire life of the individual. Hormones of the stress system and sex steroids have such effects, which influence the behavior and certain physiologic functions of individuals for life. Exposure of the developing brain to severe and/or prolonged stress may result in hyperactivity/hyperreactivity of the stress system, with resultant amygdala hyperfunction (fear reaction), decreased activity of the hippocampus (defective glucocorticoid-negative feedback, cognition), and the mesocorticolimbic dopaminergic system (dysthymia, novelty-seeking, addictive behaviors), hyperactivation of the HPA axis (hypercortisolism), suppression of reproductive, growth, thyroid and immune functions, and changes in pain perception. These changes may be accompanied by abnormal childhood, adolescent and adult behaviors, including excessive fear ('inhibited child syndrome') and addictive behaviors, dysthymia and/or depression, and gradual development of components of the metabolic syndrome X, including visceral obesity and essential hypertension. Prenatal stress exerted during the period of sexual differentiation may be accompanied by impairment of this process with behavioral and/or ****tic sequelae. The vulnerability of individuals to develop varying degrees and/or components of the above life-long syndrome is defined by as yet unidentified genetic factors, which account for up to 60% of the variance. CRH has marked kindling and glucocorticoids have strong consolidating properties, hence both of these hormones are crucial in development and can alone produce the above syndrome. CRH and glucocorticoids may act in synergy, as in acoustic startle, while glucocorticoids may suppress or stimulate CRH, as in the hypothalamus and amygdala, respectively. A CRH type 1 receptor antagonist, antalarmin, inhibits both the development and expression of conditioned fear in rats, and has anxiolytic properties in monkeys. Profound stressors, such as those from sexual abuse, may elicit the syndrome in older children, adolescents and adults. Most frequently, chronic dysthymia and/or depression may develop in association with gastrointestinal complaints and/or the premenstrual tension syndrome. A lesser proportion of individuals may develop the classic posttraumatic stress disorder, which is characterized by hypocortisolism and intrusive and avoidance symptoms; in younger individuals it may present as dissociative personality disorder. Copyright 2003 S. Karger AG, Basel