Why is 5/3/1 so ADVANCED?

[ConanDestroyer]

Some people are telling me I can't do 5/3/1 because I'm not "ADVANCED" enough.

I don't understand the logic of this at all... is not the whole point of this program to improve your strength?

Ok, I can bench 150 lbs... will not the 5/3/1 program take me into the 200 lb level? Isn't this the whole point of doing it?

The only thing I can see that might hold me back is nutrition, cause I'm trying to lose weight right now. Maybe I should wait for a bulk to do this program...

Doesn't 5/3/1 just represent a progressive loading scheme that is the best template for strength increase?

Why not suitable for someone with lifts in the 100's instead of 200's ?

[ImaBucket]

A 5/3/1 program could work fine for you, why people are telling you that you should do some other program is because it's likely not ideal at your training level.

For example, you would likely see gains using either a 5/3/1 or SS style of program. But since you're lifts are low, you can make strength gains faster than someone who already is benching 250+. So in 6 months using SS you would have more strength gains using a beginner (SS) style of program than a training program designed to help people who already have a high level of strength. Both would work, beginner style of programs would work better.

Also, more advanced lifters generally are able to focus and have better form on those hard 1 rep sets. Beginner lifters in general (not all) need to develop that.

[FiNePoWder277]

A 5/3/1 program could work fine for you, why people are telling you that you should do some other program is because it's likely not ideal at your training level.

For example, you would likely see gains using either a 5/3/1 or SS style of program. But since you're lifts are low, you can make strength gains faster than someone who already is benching 250+. So in 6 months using SS you would have more strength gains using a beginner (SS) style of program than a training program designed to help people who already have a high level of strength. Both would work, beginner style of programs would work better.

Also, more advanced lifters generally are able to focus and have better form on those hard 1 rep sets. Beginner lifters in general (not all) need to develop that.

great answer

[ConanDestroyer]

Thanks for the detailed response!

But I'm not clear on why Starting Strength is somehow a beginner program, and 5/3/1 is an advanced program.

It seems like both systems incorporate the same exact core movements...

The main difference I see is that 5/3/1 has a set loading pattern that is progressive, while SS has you lifting the same load till you get the 5 reps per set.

Also, SS makes you squat 3 times per week, and 5/3/1 only has you squat once per week.

Seems 5/3/1 might be more of a beginner's program then SS is... its certainly easier for me personally!

[Farley1324]

But I'm not clear on why Starting Strength is somehow a beginner program, and 5/3/1 is an advanced program.

How do the progression rates compare....?

Is a guy who squats 500 pounds going to be able to progress on SS?

[shroper]

5/3/1 has lower volume because more advanced lifters need more time to recover due to the heavier weights being lifted. SOmething like SS will allow to to progress much, much faster since you are squatting heavy 3x/week and adding weight every workout. There is a point where this simply isn't possible to recover from. At that point a more periodized program such as 5/3/1 is in order, to allow more recovery between heavy workouts, If someone is squatting 600x5 there is no way they are going to be able to do that 3x/week and recover unless they have some SERIOUS "help".

You certainly can use 5/3/1 if you want, you just won't advance as quickly, which is kind of silly IMO

[weak704]

SS you add weight to your lifts each workout and in 5/3/1 you take a percentage off you weight, then you subtract from that weight and work your way up to it.

SS is better for a beginner because it gets you stronger faster than 5/3/1 does.

[Scofield807]

Thanks for the detailed response!

But I'm not clear on why Starting Strength is somehow a beginner program, and 5/3/1 is an advanced program.

It seems like both systems incorporate the same exact core movements...

The main difference I see is that 5/3/1 has a set loading pattern that is progressive, while SS has you lifting the same load till you get the 5 reps per set.

Also, SS makes you squat 3 times per week, and 5/3/1 only has you squat once per week.

Seems 5/3/1 might be more of a beginner's program then SS is... its certainly easier for me personally!

It has nothing to do with the difficulty level of the program itself. 5/3/1 is recommended as an advanced program because it focuses on hitting modest, short term, goals over a long period of time. This is ideal for "advanced" trainees as it becomes harder and harder to make progress the longer you've been training. At some point, the ability to add even 10lbs a month to a given exercise becomes very difficult and 5/3/1 presents a solution to that.

Someone who hasn't been lifting as long can make gains faster then those provided by a strict 5/3/1 template. You would be limiting yourself as a beginner by following a program that sets modest goals when you're capable of hitting more progressive goals.

[ConanDestroyer]

What defines a beginner?

Is it simply defined by the amount of weight you can lift?

I've been lifting for 3 years... I have nice size gains but never did a strength routine.

[Wildtim]

Beginner is defined by how fast you will be able to progress your strength level. Since your bench is quite week, amazingly so for someone who has liftend for so long, it is very probable that you have a lot of strength you can gain very quickly.

[Farley1324]

Ok, I can bench 150 lbs...

I've been lifting for 3 years... I have nice size gains but never did a strength routine.

And you've been a member here for 10 months.

AND I know you were posting in this section and getting advice many months ago.


So...what have you been doing?

[Ernie623]

And you've been a member here for 10 months.

AND I know you were posting in this section and getting advice many months ago.


So...what have you been doing?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=125278381

an interesting read all right. LOL

[Farley1324]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=125278381

an interesting read all right. LOL

Yup, there it is.

Solid -10 lbs bench progression over the last 6 months Conan.

Still trollin?

[rdferguson]

Thanks for the detailed response!

But I'm not clear on why Starting Strength is somehow a beginner program, and 5/3/1 is an advanced program.

It seems like both systems incorporate the same exact core movements...

The main difference I see is that 5/3/1 has a set loading pattern that is progressive, while SS has you lifting the same load till you get the 5 reps per set.

Also, SS makes you squat 3 times per week, and 5/3/1 only has you squat once per week.

Seems 5/3/1 might be more of a beginner's program then SS is... its certainly easier for me personally!

It's probably already been said by now, but I'm too lazy to keep skimming through the replies to check. In SS, you aim to increase your squats by 10lb/session until you can't add that much anymore, then 5lb/session until you can't add that much anymore, then microload, etc. Some general principles with other exercises, although deadlifts start a little higher in rate of progression (15-20lb/session if possible) and other movements a little lighter (start at 5lb/session). Do a month of that, and say you started at 100lb bench press, you've (hopefully) added 5lb to it 6 times (3 every two weeks), so now you're up to 130lb. Next month 160, next month 190 (assuming you don't stall or slow down progress, but you probably will). In 5/3/1, you increase the squat by 10lb/month, and bench press by 5lb/month. So with the same starting weights, your bench press has only gone up to 105lb after a month, 110lb after 2 months, and 115lb after 3 months.

Ultimately, the difference between the two programs is that SS is designed for people who can still progress every time they train, whereas 5/3/1 is designed for people who have exhausted daily and even weekly progressions. You could certainly train in a style similar to 5/3/1 and have it more appropriate for a beginner-to-intermediate level trainee, having a day focused on each of the 4 main lifts, and just progress at a more rapid rate. But SS has the potential to have you progressing up to 6 times faster, because beginners CAN progress that quickly. Advanced trainees cannot, so slower progression has to be built into their programs.

[peteskeys]

The impression I get is that you're looking for excuses to find a program other than something basic like Starting Strength because you found it too difficult. If you bench 150 lbs you are a beginner, whether you've been training for 1 month, 3 years, or 10 years. Unless you went from "anorexic" to "skinny" I have trouble believing that you made nice size gains with lifts that light. Unless you're 5'0 I also doubt that with your lifts you need to cut any more.

Not trying to be a douche, but simply put you're missing the point. As an above poster said, at your strength level you'll gain faster on SS than on 5/3/1. Ultimately, even though 5/3/1 may seem fancier and you start with a lighter weight, if you don't bust your ass just as would have with SS you'll see **** progress anyway.

[Farley1324]

OP is either a troll or a complete moron that will never take any advice he is given. Either way this is a waste of time.


Read that thread (7 pages) that was linked if you don't believe me, and come to your own conclusion.

[ConanDestroyer]

Shut up with the "total moron" and "troll accusations'. Ok? I'm trying my best to improve at weightlifting, I don't need negative feedback from people.

In the past months since I posted that old thread, I've made progress.

I added 10 lbs to bench press, I learned how to squat although not to complete depth, and I've been on a cut in which I lost about 20 lbs so far.

I can only blame my lack of strength gains on the fact that I've been cutting..

But I've improved my form, and I am looking forward to a bulk cycle in which I will either attempt 5/3/1 or Starting Strength.

The next time I try Starting Strength, I'm gonna try to do it exactly as the book says it should be done. I'm expecting major stalls, and perhaps even problems with recovery.

The biggest thing right now is I'm trying to get lean and reach 10% bodyfat. And I don't ever want to be fat again, which means no more ridiculous bulking cycles where I gain 24% bodyfat.

And there is nobody in my gym that benches more then 150 lbs... you guys are just extremely advanced, with lifts in the 200 and 300s, and you look down on everyone as "weaklings"... Nobody in my gym benches more then me, why is that?

I guess everyone is a big pussy..

Whatever..

I'm not a troll..

[Farley1324]

In the past months since I posted that old thread, I've made progress.

In this thread, in December, you said you bench 150.

In the linked thread, from June?, you said you benched 160.

I learned how to squat although not to complete depth, and I've been on a cut in which I lost about 20 lbs so far.

You still aren't capable of squatting to depth? Why not?

But I've improved my form

Improved even though you still aren't squatting to depth?

And there is nobody in my gym that benches more then 150 lbs... you guys are just extremely advanced, with lifts in the 200 and 300s, and you look down on everyone as "weaklings"... Nobody in my gym benches more then me, why is that?

This has nothing to do with anything.

My bench isn't enough to even get a second glance at my gym. Everybody benches. It's THE bro lift. I've spot a guy who close grip benched 375 lbs and I've witnessed a guy incline bench 405 for reps.

So?

[peteskeys]

And there is nobody in my gym that benches more then 150 lbs... you guys are just extremely advanced, with lifts in the 200 and 300s, and you look down on everyone as "weaklings"... Nobody in my gym benches more then me, why is that?

I guess everyone is a big pussy..

Where the **** are you training?! Not all gym have guys putting up 405 for reps, but seriously? You need to train somewhere where there's at least a little inspiration and a few people who know what they're doing.

Are you training at Curves?

[Ernie623]

And there is nobody in my gym that benches more then 150 lbs... you guys are just extremely advanced, with lifts in the 200 and 300s, and you look down on everyone as "weaklings"... Nobody in my gym benches more then me, why is that?

..

Jesus H Christ, some of the female PTs at my gym rep out 135 on the bench without blinking. Literally struggle to comprehend how you could go to a gym and nobody bench more than 150. Unless you just go at random weird hours and never see all the dozens and dozens of other people who bench above 150+.

[weak704]

Shut up with the "total moron" and "troll accusations'. Ok? I'm trying my best to improve at weightlifting, I don't need negative feedback from people.

In the past months since I posted that old thread, I've made progress.

I added 10 lbs to bench press, I learned how to squat although not to complete depth, and I've been on a cut in which I lost about 20 lbs so far.

I can only blame my lack of strength gains on the fact that I've been cutting..

But I've improved my form, and I am looking forward to a bulk cycle in which I will either attempt 5/3/1 or Starting Strength.

The next time I try Starting Strength, I'm gonna try to do it exactly as the book says it should be done. I'm expecting major stalls, and perhaps even problems with recovery.

The biggest thing right now is I'm trying to get lean and reach 10% bodyfat. And I don't ever want to be fat again, which means no more ridiculous bulking cycles where I gain 24% bodyfat.

And there is nobody in my gym that benches more then 150 lbs... you guys are just extremely advanced, with lifts in the 200 and 300s, and you look down on everyone as "weaklings"... Nobody in my gym benches more then me, why is that?

I guess everyone is a big pussy..

Whatever..

I'm not a troll..

I dont want to blow my own horn, but my bench went from 95lbs to 235lbs in almost 8 months off SS and solid dieting.

If you have been working out for 3 years and you only bench 150lbs you are less than a beginner. Do yourself a favor and run SS exactly like its written with proper nutrition and you will be the strongest person in your gym in a couple of months. Or don't and come back in 6 months bitching about not making gains. Either way I don't care.

[ConanDestroyer]

In this thread, in December, you said you bench 150.

In the linked thread, from June?, you said you benched 160.

You still aren't capable of squatting to depth? Why not?

Improved even though you still aren't squatting to depth?

This has nothing to do with anything.

My bench isn't enough to even get a second glance at my gym. Everybody benches. It's THE bro lift. I've spot a guy who close grip benched 375 lbs and I've witnessed a guy incline bench 405 for reps.

So?

I lied about being able to bench 160 when I posted that thread. I was ashamed that I was stuck at around 130... I didn't want to be made fun of.

I'm up to benching 150, so its an okay increase, considering im eating a calorie deficit, right?

I'm not squatting to full depth because of my hip mobility problem. I still have extremely tight quads, hamstrings, and hips. I have been on a stretching program which hasn't been successful so far.

Yeah, I go to a commercial gym. Its most common for people to throw on 45 lb plates onto the barbell, and do 135 lbs of 15 reps... then they sometimes add some weight for their work sets. I've rarely seen anyone at my gym bench over 200.

I guess commercial gyms have pussies... I am in the wrong environment, no strong people here.

Anyhow, since my goal is to get 10% bodyfat, I doubt I can do Rippetoe or 5/3/1 or anything until I reached that goal.

When I do embark on a strength program, its needs to be a VERY CLEAN bulk... I don't want to be fat again.

Is it really so bad to be lean, with some muscle, and look good? If I'm a troll, then I'm a troll who is in shape!

(I'm just weak)

[SgSpartan]

Hi OP. Pretty sure you're referring to me.

SS and other beginner programs=linear gains.

5/3/1=cyclical gains.

Linear gains, well, are much faster. However, you can't keep getting linear gains. It's like a job. You could probably climb the first few rungs of the corporate ladder easily, but at a certain stage, you may have to work a lot harder just for the same pay raise.

[grumble1]

5/3/1 is a great program, but the progression is slow for a beginner. It still works, but there are better options. Once you're an intermediate it makes more sense. The rep PR scheme it has does tend to progress you faster than the weight jumps would indicate, but it's still not the best choice for a novice.

[Farley1324]

I lied about being able to bench 160 when I posted that thread.

Yet another good reason not to bother trying to help you.

Your history on the forums is, uh, rather questionable.

[ConanDestroyer]

Yet another good reason not to bother trying to help you.

Your history on the forums is, uh, rather questionable.

Fair enough.... I do admit that I exxagerate sometimes, for the sake of making a point...

I've received enough help anyhow..

I now realize the difference between Starting Strength and 5/3/1,.. so thanks!

Just so you know, these are my goals.

1. Get down to 10% bodyfat
2. Achieve full flexibility in hips, quads, and hamstrings
3. Learn perfect form for squat, deadlift, bench, and overhead press
4. Do Starting Strength and get my lifts into the 200's
5. Clean bulk and keep my bodyfat low

These are my goals, write them down bitches! I will achieve them!! Who is the troll then???

There ya go..

[SgSpartan]

I never fail to get amused by your threads...

[imsotheman]

jesus, i was wondering when this guy would get it after having it explained in the first 30 posts. the fact that it took that long for you to get it is what defines beginner from intermediate and so on... you can lift for aslong as you want and still be a beginner... just look around your gym at the rats who never make any progress come in and lift the same weight everyday with poor form

[ConanDestroyer]

I never fail to get amused by your threads...

Are you laughing at me? You think I'm funny? Like a clown?

My last thread was 100% serious.

I WILL ACHIEVE MY DREAMS.

[ConanDestroyer]

jesus, i was wondering when this guy would get it after having it explained in the first 30 posts. the fact that it took that long for you to get it is what defines beginner from intermediate and so on... you can lift for aslong as you want and still be a beginner... just look around your gym at the rats who never make any progress come in and lift the same weight everyday with poor form

You're right. People do get stuck at a certain point for a long period of time, and grind their wheels forever.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

I've been insane in the gym for a while.

But I'm trying to change, man!

I guess I've realized that creating my own customized programs is a bad idea. I need to try a proven program.

I WILL ACHIEVE MY DREAMS!