5x5 vs. 12,10,8,6 vs. 10,8,6,4

[JeremyLeon]

which rep range is best for mass growth, cutting, strength, etc... please support your statement with a solid reason. thank you

[beast1975]

which rep range is best for mass growth, cutting, strength, etc... please support your statement with a solid reason. thank you

5x5

[agility2live]

in for answer...

[PJMunh]

i don't really know too much on the subject but this is the way i look at it
feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, would love to know more.

5x5 is more geared towards strength for a few reasons
- lower reps which is more aimed at strength
- it allows for strength progression because IIRC, once completing the 5 sets of 5 reps, you're supposed to bump the weight, and work towards completing the 5x5 at the new weight.

12, 10, 8, 6, i like to think, is more geared towards size
- rep range is aimed at hypertrophy.

again I don't know too much about it so i'd love for anyone to critique it.

Also curious how you would classify doggcrap (DC) style training and what it's aimed at (size, strength)

[JeremyLeon]

5x5

don't just post ur answer my man. please explain why you feel that way.. i been getting many mixed answers and im just tryin to do some 1st hand research on what ppl have to say.. thanks

[JeremyLeon]

i don't really know too much on the subject but this is the way i look at it
feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, would love to know more.

5x5 is more geared towards strength for a few reasons
- lower reps which is more aimed at strength
- it allows for strength progression because IIRC, once completing the 5 sets of 5 reps, you're supposed to bump the weight, and work towards completing the 5x5 at the new weight.

12, 10, 8, 6, i like to think, is more geared towards size
- rep range is aimed at hypertrophy.

again I don't know too much about it so i'd love for anyone to critique it.

Also curious how you would classify doggcrap (DC) style training and what it's aimed at (size, strength)

never heard of dc so if someone knows the answer to this also post it up! and as far as hypertrophy for mass gains... where is the line.. i would assume that tearing up your chest on a set of 4 in 10,8,6,4 may be better than 12-6 because i feel like i can't push up the weight im capable of doing when i hit the higher reps first... unless u go really light but that seems assbackwards... idk tho.. again that's what im trying to find out.

[spiderman997]

Honestly, it really doesn't matter. The different "types" of hypertrophy (myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic) have never been proven to exist as separate entities in clinical studies. Both power training and pump training illicit both types, with myofibrillar hypertrophy always being far ahead. Diet plays a much bigger role than rep range, your training is all about consistency. I know guys who wake up in cold sweats at night worrying about their sets and reps, and I think they're focusing too much on the 10$ doesn't matter, and not enough on the 90% that does matter.

[JeremyLeon]

Honestly, it really doesn't matter. The different "types" of hypertrophy (myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic) have never been proven to exist as separate entities in clinical studies. Both power training and pump training illicit both types, with myofibrillar hypertrophy always being far ahead. Diet plays a much bigger role than rep range, your training is all about consistency. I know guys who wake up in cold sweats at night worrying about their sets and reps, and I think they're focusing too much on the 10$ doesn't matter, and not enough on the 90% that does matter.

my diet is pretty bad ass (75~f/400~c/250~p very consistently i track intake every day) and i have only missed one day that i didnt plan on missing in the past 3 months at the gym... lots more ahead for training but if i had to make a logical assumption id say switching between the power and hypertrophy training would be the best way to go... but specifically asking the question because my chest sucks. i want to grown the bitch and im trying to develop the right and most effective routine for it. thanks for your knowledge

[PJMunh]

never heard of dc so if someone knows the answer to this also post it up! and as far as hypertrophy for mass gains... where is the line.. i would assume that tearing up your chest on a set of 4 in 10,8,6,4 may be better than 12-6 because i feel like i can't push up the weight im capable of doing when i hit the higher reps first... unless u go really light but that seems assbackwards... idk tho.. again that's what im trying to find out.

wish i could answer your question but this is what I'm balls deep in trying to learn as we speak (and have been for a while).

As far as DC goes, it's pretty intriguing IMO. It's based upon low volume high intensity, 1 big rest paused set, and deep stretching. I personally LOVE high volume, have no problem accommodating for it in my diet, but so many growth (size or strength) programs are based around low volume. It's exactly why I absolutely kill it on a cut but my bulks aren't nearly as successful as they should be.

[retiredrunner]

Honestly, it really doesn't matter. The different "types" of hypertrophy (myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic) have never been proven to exist as separate entities in clinical studies. Both power training and pump training illicit both types, with myofibrillar hypertrophy always being far ahead. Diet plays a much bigger role than rep range, your training is all about consistency. I know guys who wake up in cold sweats at night worrying about their sets and reps, and I think they're focusing too much on the 10$ doesn't matter, and not enough on the 90% that does matter.

+1

5x5 is my preference; less math and I'm still making weekly progress.

[spiderman997]

my diet is pretty bad ass (75~f/400~c/250~p very consistently i track intake every day) and i have only missed one day that i didnt plan on missing in the past 3 months at the gym... lots more ahead for training but if i had to make a logical assumption id say switching between the power and hypertrophy training would be the best way to go... but specifically asking the question because my chest sucks. i want to grown the bitch and im trying to develop the right and most effective routine for it. thanks for your knowledge

A variety is best, you're right. Look at the best routines and see what makes them tick. Some have periodization that has you doing power and hypertrophy training at the same time (Westside), others have you doing one or the other for several weeks (Western periodization). Explore whatever you HAVEN'T been doing. If nothing else, you can always get your bench up another 50lbs.

[beast1975]

don't just post ur answer my man. please explain why you feel that way.. i been getting many mixed answers and im just tryin to do some 1st hand research on what ppl have to say.. thanks

Well 5x5 is built for power. If you want size you should do higher reps 10. IF you want both I would say one week do 5x5 the next do sets with 10 reps. And the alternating styles will keep the body guessing and youll be getting both power and size.

[JeremyLeon]

wish i could answer your question but this is what I'm balls deep in trying to learn as we speak (and have been for a while).

As far as DC goes, it's pretty intriguing IMO. It's based upon low volume high intensity, 1 big rest paused set, and deep stretching. I personally LOVE high volume, have no problem accommodating for it in my diet, but so many growth (size or strength) programs are based around low volume. It's exactly why I absolutely kill it on a cut but my bulks aren't nearly as successful as they should be.

i feel like on the high rep workouts im in the gym for too long... but if u find out the answer post it up bro lemme know

+1

5x5 is my preference; less math and I'm still making weekly progress.

i like them too

A variety is best, you're right. Look at the best routines and see what makes them tick. Some have periodization that has you doing power and hypertrophy training at the same time (Westside), others have you doing one or the other for several weeks (Western periodization). Explore whatever you HAVEN'T been doing. If nothing else, you can always get your bench up another 50lbs.

gonna look into those. smolov is periodization also... i added in hypertrophy ranges for the other body parts while doing it for chest.. went up 30lbs in about 3 weeks.

[joelash302]

Honestly, it really doesn't matter. The different "types" of hypertrophy (myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic) have never been proven to exist as separate entities in clinical studies. Both power training and pump training illicit both types, with myofibrillar hypertrophy always being far ahead. Diet plays a much bigger role than rep range, your training is all about consistency. I know guys who wake up in cold sweats at night worrying about their sets and reps, and I think they're focusing too much on the 10$ doesn't matter, and not enough on the 90% that does matter.

Thumbs up this post.

[PJMunh]

i feel like on the high rep workouts im in the gym for too long... but if u find out the answer post it up bro lemme know

will do, but just to be clear when i say high volume i don't mean high reps. I just mean a lot of exercises and sets. It's kinda how i was introduced to the game and I really do enjoy it.

When you say in the gym too long i'm curious what exactly your concern is...

either
a.) you're pressed for time which is completely understandable.

b.) you're afraid of overtraining. My view on overtraining is this: "you can't overtrain, you can only under eat". Under eating has NEVER been a problem for me (aside from a short time where i suffered an eating disorder), and i feel like this is directly tied into my love for high volume.

[Ballad]

So what I'm reading from this thread is if for the purpose of specific sport functions I want to get really strong without getting very big then low reps is the way to go? Does 5x5 build as much/more strength than other set/rep combinations or would you get a better progression for this purpose doing like 3x10's at maintenance/slight deficit? I guess I still don't totally get the science of exactly where strength is optimally built, and the fact that I don't feel a long lasting burn from 5x5s makes me uncertain I guess. Is that burn only associated with growth and not relevant to strength?

[JeremyLeon]

will do, but just to be clear when i say high volume i don't mean high reps. I just mean a lot of exercises and sets. It's kinda how i was introduced to the game and I really do enjoy it.

When you say in the gym too long i'm curious what exactly your concern is...

either
a.) you're pressed for time which is completely understandable.

b.) you're afraid of overtraining. My view on overtraining is this: "you can't overtrain, you can only under eat". Under eating has NEVER been a problem for me (aside from a short time where i suffered an eating disorder), and i feel like this is directly tied into my love for high volume.

haha nah man i have all the time in the world and i'd spend 4 hrs a day if i could.. but im talking about cortisol... im not too familiar with the principle so if anyone is reading an has knowledge on the subject please post ur input but basically after you lift for 45min-1hr your cortisol levels rise and have negative effects on the body, ur lifts, etc. regardless of food intake... i just read that in order to counteract the rise.. you gotta bang hot chicks. haha so idk man i like to go from 1.5hrs - 2hrs and do a lot of work. but im seeing that supersetting some exercises not only saves time.. but adds to the overall pump.

[PJMunh]

I'm not too aware on cortisol but pertaining to supersets; they definitely save time and increase pump, but i'm pretty positive they don't help contribute to strength, and I don't know exactly how useful they are in the size department.

[agility2live]

So 5x5 -> size and strength right?

but what about for cutting? Just lots of heavy sets + reps?

[JeremyLeon]

I'm not too aware on cortisol but pertaining to supersets; they definitely save time and increase pump, but i'm pretty positive they don't help contribute to strength, and I don't know exactly how useful they are in the size department.

not concerned with the strength at the moment... esp cuz im trying to compete in a physique competition.. maybe someone can clarify the superset effect on muscle developement for us.... also i only found out about cortisol levels after posting up a routine i drafted.. which i thought was ****ing beast and you'll prob like it a lot http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ght=jeremyleon i put my friend on this and he loves the program.. ignore the time estimates they were way off. The whole concept of the program was to switch between hypertrophy and power while switching exercise regiments.. idk i like it, not currently on it but if u read threw u'll see that all the people who responded tore me apart lol. this is where i heard first about the cortisol thing...

So 5x5 -> size and strength right?

but what about for cutting? Just lots of heavy sets + reps?

i guess the general consensus would be:
cutting = higher rep / higher volume / medium weight (8x4, 10x3, 12-10-8-6, or 15-12-10-8)
bulking = lower rep / lower volume / heavy weight (5x5, 8-6-4)

remember cutting is primarily influenced by the diet you are on... if you are trying to preserve muscle mass and lower body fat its important to keep fats low (.4-.6gs per lb of body weight), proteins high (1-1.5gs per lb) and carbs in the middle.. check out http://www.scivationbooks.com/books/...verVolume4.pdf this is what my coach/friend put me onto and used to cut from 295-171 stage ready... anyways there are charts in the pdf that you can follow ie 2000 cal = 70 fats / 90 carbs / 245 protein.. that may be different for women im not sure so dont quote me but the manual has a lot of useful information besides those charts (starting on pg48) like diet info, workout suggestions, etc. hope that helps

[Orlando1234977]

So 5x5 -> size and strength right?

but what about for cutting? Just lots of heavy sets + reps?

5 reps is better for 5 rep strength.

10 reps is better for 10 rep strength
etc.. S.A.I.D. principle..

For size, 8-12 reps is the better than any other specific range, but all rep ranges still beats 8-12.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/SkeletalMuscle.pdf

"-Research has determined muscle hypertrophy to be greatest in the 8-12 repetition range; this is likely due to the combined effects of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy being greatest at this rep range"

For cutting, it's about losing fat, which is about diet and calories burned, not rep range.

[Bobby1291]

Also, 5x5 is usually ramped up to the highest weight in the last set. Unless some people say do a 200 lb bench press 5x5 without changing the weight, but I don't think that's what people do. They usually ramp the weights up, example, 100x5, 125x5, 150x5, 175x5, and then for the last set 200x5.

[agility2live]

cutting = higher rep / higher volume / medium weight (8x4, 10x3, 12-10-8-6, or 15-12-10-8)
bulking = lower rep / lower volume / heavy weight (5x5, 8-6-4)

remember cutting is primarily influenced by the diet you are on... if you are trying to preserve muscle mass and lower body fat its important to keep fats low (.4-.6gs per lb of body weight), proteins high (1-1.5gs per lb) and carbs in the middle.. check out http://www.scivationbooks.com/books/...verVolume4.pdf this is what my coach/friend put me onto and used to cut from 295-171 stage ready... anyways there are charts in the pdf that you can follow ie 2000 cal = 70 fats / 90 carbs / 245 protein.. that may be different for women im not sure so dont quote me but the manual has a lot of useful information besides those charts (starting on pg48) like diet info, workout suggestions, etc. hope that helps

5 reps is better for 5 rep strength.

10 reps is better for 10 rep strength
etc.. S.A.I.D. principle..

For size, 8-12 reps is the better than any other specific range, but all rep ranges still beats 8-12.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/SkeletalMuscle.pdf

"-Research has determined muscle hypertrophy to be greatest in the 8-12 repetition range; this is likely due to the combined effects of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy being greatest at this rep range"

For cutting, it's about losing fat, which is about diet and calories burned, not rep range.

I'm good with the diet, just wasn't completely sure what the basics were for how training reps and sets change when you're bulking rather than cutting [I'll be bulking soon]

thanks guys , it's clear now

[JeremyLeon]

Also, 5x5 is usually ramped up to the highest weight in the last set. Unless some people say do a 200 lb bench press 5x5 without changing the weight, but I don't think that's what people do. They usually ramp the weights up, example, 100x5, 125x5, 150x5, 175x5, and then for the last set 200x5.

i've never heard of people using weight increments in 5x5... the whole point is once u can do 5x5 lets say of 200 u bump to 5x5 of 205 and work it until u can get all 5 sets... so it may start like 5x205,5x205,4x205,3x205,1x205 and u keep pushing till u get 5x5 for all.. then increase weight again.

I'm good with the diet, just wasn't completely sure what the basics were for how training reps and sets change when you're bulking rather than cutting [I'll be bulking soon]

thanks guys , it's clear now

welcome good luck... what are u training for?

[whitneymmm]

Honestly, it really doesn't matter. The different "types" of hypertrophy (myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic) have never been proven to exist as separate entities in clinical studies. Both power training and pump training illicit both types, with myofibrillar hypertrophy always being far ahead. Diet plays a much bigger role than rep range, your training is all about consistency. I know guys who wake up in cold sweats at night worrying about their sets and reps, and I think they're focusing too much on the 10$ doesn't matter, and not enough on the 90% that does matter.

The reason the the higher rep schemes are better for hypertrophy (in more advanced lifters) is because hypertrophy is a function of volume training, and using higher reps allows high volume training where 5x5 training would not. I agree though that many people put too much emphasis on what doesn't count and not enough emphasis on what does.

[Bobby1291]

i've never heard of people using weight increments in 5x5... the whole point is once u can do 5x5 lets say of 200 u bump to 5x5 of 205 and work it until u can get all 5 sets... so it may start like 5x205,5x205,4x205,3x205,1x205 and u keep pushing till u get 5x5 for all.. then increase weight again.

Search Bill Starr's 5x5 routine. I don't think many people keep doing the same weight for 5 reps over all 5 sets. I'm pretty sure most people do it like I said.

[agility2live]

i've never heard of people using weight increments in 5x5... the whole point is once u can do 5x5 lets say of 200 u bump to 5x5 of 205 and work it until u can get all 5 sets... so it may start like 5x205,5x205,4x205,3x205,1x205 and u keep pushing till u get 5x5 for all.. then increase weight again.



welcome good luck... what are u training for?

Ehh, it's a mix of personal goals and the possibility of wanting to compete in the future as far as a fitness competition

[JeremyLeon]

The reason the the higher rep schemes are better for hypertrophy (in more advanced lifters) is because hypertrophy is a function of volume training, and using higher reps allows high volume training where 5x5 training would not. I agree though that many people put too much emphasis on what doesn't count and not enough emphasis on what does.

yeah but both power and mass count.. i think the best way is switching high volume with low volume training... u see a lot of people make incredible gains by doing one exercise per body part. my friend is a perfect example he goes in for 45 minutes and does a few warm up deadlifts a few heavy working sets. same deal with squats... and pretty much goes home. his lifts and size have shot threw the roof but again, u can't generalize what works for everyone i guess. also u can 5x5 for say 4 exercises in a workout for back, that's still a lot of volume. idk balance is important... sick grill btw

Search Bill Starr's 5x5 routine. I don't think many people keep doing the same weight for 5 reps over all 5 sets. I'm pretty sure most people do it like I said.

ill check but i've never even caught wind of that... if u wanna go up in weight normally u do 12-10-8-6

[JeremyLeon]

Ehh, it's a mix of personal goals and the possibility of wanting to compete in the future as far as a fitness competition

well, i wish u the best of luck and please let me know how it works out for you...
im bulking for another month til i cut for a show in june. check out what i been upto if u got a free minute.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=128975511

[Bobby1291]

Actually, if you mean 12-10-8-6 with the same weight, and then bump it up the next workout, that's pointless, since you can do the weight 12 times and the last set you'd do it 6 times. But I don't think that's what you are saying.

Let's just say this: If you are looking to gain strength and looking to put weight on the bar every workout, then 3x5 is key. A program like Starting Strength is the way to go, even if you already bench 200 for reps, you still can make progress.