5x5 vs. 12,10,8,6 vs. 10,8,6,4

[whitneymmm]

yeah but both power and mass count.. i think the best way is switching high volume with low volume training... u see a lot of people make incredible gains by doing one exercise per body part. my friend is a perfect example he goes in for 45 minutes and does a few warm up deadlifts a few heavy working sets. same deal with squats... and pretty much goes home. his lifts and size have shot threw the roof but again, u can't generalize what works for everyone i guess. also u can 5x5 for say 4 exercises in a workout for back, that's still a lot of volume. idk balance is important... sick grill btw



ill check but i've never even caught wind of that... if u wanna go up in weight normally u do 12-10-8-6

I agree with you, both need to be incorporated, I was just explaining why higher reps are generally considered a hypertrophy range. I prefer lower rep training, and you're not wrong to say that 5x5 four times is high volume. Some people may struggle with CNS overload when trying to increase the volume though, and prefer to add a higher volume with lower weights. But I'm totally with you, I like lower rep way more and think you can see phenomenal gains there. Plus 5 reps is in the hypertrophy and strength range anyways. I think that's the most optimal place to sit at (personal opinion). Raw strength under 3 reps doesn't usually lend much hypertrophy though.
What your friend has clued into though is that if you want a lot of size you get to the gym squat/dead heavy. Most people are missing this.... You definitely don't need a lot of exercises to gain a lot of mass.

[JeremyLeon]

Actually, if you mean 12-10-8-6 with the same weight, and then bump it up the next workout, that's pointless, since you can do the weight 12 times and the last set you'd do it 6 times. But I don't think that's what you are saying.

Let's just say this: If you are looking to gain strength and looking to put weight on the bar every workout, then 3x5 is key. A program like Starting Strength is the way to go, even if you already bench 200 for reps, you still can make progress.

lol nooo bro 12-10-8-6 12 being the first set lowest weight and 6 being the last w heavy weight... and putting weight on every workout is stupid.. youll hurt urself. and 3x5 i think is too few. but again to each his own. thanks for ur feed my dude

[Bobby1291]

No problem, but you better watch what you say when you say putting weight on that bar every workout is stupid and you'll hurt yourself, reason being is because all Starting Strength does is put weight on the bar every workout. I'm not saying a 50 pound increase each time to you bench, but 5-10 lbs every time you bench, which is every other workout, and 10-20 lbs or more to your squat and deads every workout. If you would research Starting Strength, it's a proven routine and you are adding weight to the bar every workout.

[JeremyLeon]

I agree with you, both need to be incorporated, I was just explaining why higher reps are generally considered a hypertrophy range. I prefer lower rep training, and you're not wrong to say that 5x5 four times is high volume. Some people may struggle with CNS overload when trying to increase the volume though, and prefer to add a higher volume with lower weights. But I'm totally with you, I like lower rep way more and think you can see phenomenal gains there. Plus 5 reps is in the hypertrophy and strength range anyways. I think that's the most optimal place to sit at (personal opinion). Raw strength under 3 reps doesn't usually lend much hypertrophy though.
What your friend has clued into though is that if you want a lot of size you get to the gym squat/dead heavy. Most people are missing this.... You definitely don't need a lot of exercises to gain a lot of mass.

bingo. train hard. eat hard. personally im happy w low reps with very small rest intervals... supersets.. and just psychologically stimulating myself to finish what i have started.. i guess it depends on what it is u'r trying to do in the long run... and there certainly is no one right way but damn... if u aren't doing compound movements and the big lifts u'r missing out. i got a bad lower back from snowboarding and my knee has been shot (idk why) so i been laying low or at least taking it easy w squats but ur on point. under 3 reps... is power, idk im repeating the **** u said lol. good post. repping you now thanks for your knowledge

[agility2live]

well, i wish u the best of luck and please let me know how it works out for you...
im bulking for another month til i cut for a show in june. check out what i been upto if u got a free minute.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=128975511

Will do, and thanks

[whitneymmm]

bingo. train hard. eat hard. personally im happy w low reps with very small rest intervals... supersets.. and just psychologically stimulating myself to finish what i have started.. i guess it depends on what it is u'r trying to do in the long run... and there certainly is no one right way but damn... if u aren't doing compound movements and the big lifts u'r missing out. i got a bad lower back from snowboarding and my knee has been shot (idk why) so i been laying low or at least taking it easy w squats but ur on point. under 3 reps... is power, idk im repeating the **** u said lol. good post. repping you now thanks for your knowledge

That's sad, there is nothing quite like the squatting or deadlifting. Just keep working hard you'll figure it out. Oh and get your knee checked out. It will only get worse.

[JeremyLeon]

No problem, but you better watch what you say when you say putting weight on that bar every workout is stupid and you'll hurt yourself, reason being is because all Starting Strength does is put weight on the bar every workout. I'm not saying a 50 pound increase each time to you bench, but 5-10 lbs every time you bench, which is every other workout, and 10-20 lbs or more to your squat and deads every workout. If you would research Starting Strength, it's a proven routine and you are adding weight to the bar every workout.

lol i'd love to see u do that once u plateau u'r 18 bro of course ur gonna be able to keep going up in weight.... so ur telling me that at a 10lb increase each lower power day is feasible?? so ur telling me that even at 4 times a month... for 12 months... u can add 10 lbs every time u lift? haha good luck superman (if u didnt understand.. that's 40lbsX12months= 480lbs) that may work for a month two maybe three but listen my friend there is no way in 3 years anyone is going to "add" almost 1500lbs to their dead or squat..

[agility2live]

That's sad, there is nothing quite like the squatting or deadlifting.

couldnt agree more!

[Orlando1234977]

Also, 5x5 is usually ramped up to the highest weight in the last set.

Ramped sets

the whole point is once u can do 5x5 lets say of 200 u bump to 5x5 of 205 and work it until u can get all 5 sets...

Straight sets

if u wanna go up in weight normally u do 12-10-8-6

Pyramid sets.

All are widely used and work well.

[JeremyLeon]

That's sad, there is nothing quite like the squatting or deadlifting. Just keep working hard you'll figure it out. Oh and get your knee checked out. It will only get worse.

yeah and whats even worse is women usually dont partake in either of those exercises... when they specifically tighten your body up.. but that's why we are on the forums discussing important ****. and yeah my knee snaps/cracks a bit around 90 degree flexion. shoulder was acting up too but i started to do some focus work with prehab rotator stuff. much better now.. just taking it easy on compression of my knee for a while, plus i'm "bottom heavy" haha my quads are overly developed compared to the rest of my body... in other words i got some time to relax and get better

[Bobby1291]

lol i'd love to see u do that once u plateau u'r 18 bro of course ur gonna be able to keep going up in weight.... so ur telling me that at a 10lb increase each lower power day is feasible?? so ur telling me that even at 4 times a month... for 12 months... u can add 10 lbs every time u lift? haha good luck superman (if u didnt understand.. that's 40lbsX12months= 480lbs) that may work for a month two maybe three but listen my friend there is no way in 3 years anyone is going to "add" almost 1500lbs to their dead or squat..

Umm..hate to be mean but..are you clueless?

Ok, here's a link: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

Please read this and get back to me. I'm not pulling bs out of my ass here. Yeah I'm 18, but even if you are 35 and just started lifting you'll make gains like I said. Oh and if you know anything about the human body, you can't keep putting weight on the bar for 7 months straight and you can't keep working with heavy weight a year straight, you gotta take time off to completely recover and come back fresh. Please, if you read this you won't be spewing nonsense like you are right now.

[JeremyLeon]

Ramped sets

Pyramid sets.

All are widely used and work well.

never heard of ramped 5x5 but i guess it makes sense..
and 12-10-8-6 u saying that at 10-8 reps u wanna be doing the heaviest weight? again another style i've never heard of. plz explain that concept

[whitneymmm]

yeah and whats even worse is women usually dont partake in either of those exercises... when they specifically tighten your body up.. but that's why we are on the forums discussing important ****. and yeah my knee snaps/cracks a bit around 90 degree flexion. shoulder was acting up too but i started to do some focus work with prehab rotator stuff. much better now.. just taking it easy on compression of my knee for a while, plus i'm "bottom heavy" haha my quads are overly developed compared to the rest of my body... in other words i got some time to relax and get better

No you should definitely get it looked at rather than diagnosing yourself. Trust me on that. And you're right, many women don't partake in those exercises, but many men don't either. In fact the gym is packed everyday and I can always find a squat rack so that tells you something there.

[Bobby1291]

No you should definitely get it looked at rather than diagnosing yourself. Trust me on that. And you're right, many women don't partake in those exercises, but many men don't either. In fact the gym is packed everyday and I can always find a squat rack so that tells you something there.

One thing that I hate is people doing bench presses in the squat rack with a spotter. I'm like, "Umm..can I squat here?" and they say "Yeah bro after I'm done with my sets." I'm thinking, "Are you kidding me right now?"

[JeremyLeon]

Umm..hate to be mean but..are you clueless?

Ok, here's a link: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

Please read this and get back to me. I'm not pulling bs out of my ass here. Yeah I'm 18, but even if you are 35 and just started lifting you'll make gains like I said. Oh and if you know anything about the human body, you can't keep putting weight on the bar for 7 months straight and you can't keep working with heavy weight a year straight, you gotta take time off to completely recover and come back fresh. Please, if you read this you won't be spewing nonsense like you are right now.

ur posting up a link for "guide to novice barbell work" who are you to say spewing nonsense... all im tryin to explain is that you can not add weight every time you go lift. no **** you can make gains by increasing the weight dude my point is that u are conveying a beginner's principle... u tryin to tell me that someone who works out for 10 years straight... natural... hits a plateau, can consistently keep adding weight.. uh ur the clueless one my friend. keep ur "novice barbell" advice to people who are asking for it.

[JeremyLeon]

No you should definitely get it looked at rather than diagnosing yourself. Trust me on that. And you're right, many women don't partake in those exercises, but many men don't either. In fact the gym is packed everyday and I can always find a squat rack so that tells you something there.

yeah ur right im just nervous the orthepedic is gnna say i need knee surgery -_- but again... ur right, i definitely need to at least get examined.

[Bobby1291]

Then why bother asking? You asked what rep ranges would be best for muscle growth, strength etc, and I stated 3x5 like Starting Strength. I know you can't keep putting weight on forever. If you want to get technical, nutrition is more important than what rep ranges you are doing if you want to gain muscle. *sigh*

[JeremyLeon]

Then why bother asking? You asked what rep ranges would be best for muscle growth, strength etc, and I stated 3x5 like Starting Strength. I know you can't keep putting weight on forever. If you want to get technical, nutrition is more important than what rep ranges you are doing if you want to gain muscle. *sigh*

as was stated in the beginning of the thread.. nutrition is the key factor obviously.. thanks for your inputs anyways tho

[Bobby1291]

No problem, but I just wished we could have talked face to face and I then could explain it better, it's hard to explain my side over the internet.

[Slow-N-Steady]

I swear it seems like someone's holding a gun to people's heads forcing them to use only one rep scheme...

[JeremyLeon]

I swear it seems like someone's holding a gun to people's heads forcing them to use only one rep scheme...

yeah i hear u dude.. personally im all for switching it up.. week by week may not be the best for recording gains but at least its not boring.. i got **** for saying "muscle confusion" in a diff thread but i can't think of another term that would fit it better... i mean two months on one routine and switching to a different one is prob the best way to go.. but u know some people just get set in their ways and won't differentiate. what does ur routine look like?

[whitneymmm]

yeah ur right im just nervous the orthepedic is gnna say i need knee surgery -_- but again... ur right, i definitely need to at least get examined.

I don't think that's likely, but if you need it then you need it. It's pretty hard to get knee surgery around here, you have to have a really serious injury. If you tear your ACL it can be over a year before they'll do surgery on it.

I swear it seems like someone's holding a gun to people's heads forcing them to use only one rep scheme...

I agree. The reality is that if you take everyone with good results you'll find that they got there in totally different ways. Similar principles, but there's no one perfect method.

[Slow-N-Steady]

yeah i hear u dude.. personally im all for switching it up.. week by week may not be the best for recording gains but at least its not boring.. i got **** for saying "muscle confusion" in a diff thread but i can't think of another term that would fit it better... i mean two months on one routine and switching to a different one is prob the best way to go.. but u know some people just get set in their ways and won't differentiate. what does ur routine look like?

You don't have to switch your routine constantly to be able to change different training variables such as rep ranges, exercises, etc. I used to switch constantly just because I wanted something new or got bored, but after looking at journals of much more experienced people than me, I started to realize that a lot of people that consistently see gains do so while using the same split they have used for months and months or even years.

I keep the same split, but change the rep scheme of the lifts from time to time. I also use various rep ranges each and every week. Barbell compounds, I typically keep low rep and heavy, while using between 8-15reps on accessory lifts (depends on the lift based of past results)...but that works for me, there are plenty other ways to do it.

Check out the journals section...it will provide you with 10x more information then this subforum ever will. Find some people who are making steady progress and get tips and ideas to experiment that way.

[retiredrunner]

No you should definitely get it looked at rather than diagnosing yourself. Trust me on that. And you're right, many women don't partake in those exercises, but many men don't either. In fact the gym is packed everyday and I can always find a squat rack so that tells you something there.

That's the best thing about going to a corp gym. lol

[JeremyLeon]

You don't have to switch your routine constantly to be able to change different training variables such as rep ranges, exercises, etc. I used to switch constantly just because I wanted something new or got bored, but after looking at journals of much more experienced people than me, I started to realize that a lot of people that consistently see gains do so while using the same split they have used for months and months or even years.

I keep the same split, but change the rep scheme of the lifts from time to time. I also use various rep ranges each and every week. Barbell compounds, I typically keep low rep and heavy, while using between 8-15reps on accessory lifts (depends on the lift based of past results)...but that works for me, there are plenty other ways to do it.

Check out the journals section...it will provide you with 10x more information then this subforum ever will. Find some people who are making steady progress and get tips and ideas to experiment that way.

good advice.. i agree w what ur doin.. and if u look into my journal you'll see i do the same as you. good work btw man keep it up

I don't think that's likely, but if you need it then you need it. It's pretty hard to get knee surgery around here, you have to have a really serious injury. If you tear your ACL it can be over a year before they'll do surgery on it.



I agree. The reality is that if you take everyone with good results you'll find that they got there in totally different ways. Similar principles, but there's no one perfect method.

where are u from that there aren't doctors lol, alaska?! and that's crazy my pitbull tore his acl over the summer... and i got him surgery within a week, an thats a dog not a human! but ur point is valid, thanks for ur concern.

That's the best thing about going to a corp gym. lol

yeah most of the corporate gyms are like that, packed with ppl who are "getting in shape" haha.. 2 bicep curls, 15 minutes on a treadmill, and 10 sit ups.. oh man....

[whitneymmm]

good advice.. i agree w what ur doin.. and if u look into my journal you'll see i do the same as you. good work btw man keep it up



where are u from that there aren't doctors lol, alaska?! and that's crazy my pitbull tore his acl over the summer... and i got him surgery within a week, an thats a dog not a human! but ur point is valid, thanks for ur concern.



yeah most of the corporate gyms are like that, packed with ppl who are "getting in shape" haha.. 2 bicep curls, 15 minutes on a treadmill, and 10 sit ups.. oh man....

Canada. I think it's because our health care is covered so there is longer waiting. You guys have to pay for it in full (am I right??) which means you get it when you feel like paying for it. That could be completely incorrect I'm totally guessing. I know a girl who potentially tore her ACL in february and only was just able to get an MRI a month ago.

[james0566]

many people put too much emphasis on what doesn't count and not enough emphasis on what does.

this!

[Alabamaman]

I've been doing a 10-8-6-4 pyramid routine with bench press for a while, and getting some pretty good strength gains so far. When I first started my 1RM was at about 210, and after consistently increasing the weight by 5 or 10 lbs each week for about 6 weeks I am at 250. I still haven't hit a plateau, and hope to sucessfully complete my sets at the 255 level tomorrow.....and 260 the following week. (i know the plateau is coming soon)

As for size increase with this routine; it's hard for me to say since I do a wide variety of chest exercises that contribute to that. Overall, I'd say it's a good workout for maintaing endurance and gaining strength.

[Arezzz]

try doing both..

start with a few warm-up sets with the bar or light weight.

then put weight that u can do explosive 8 times ,then heavy weight 5RM,then deload and do 2sets of explosive 10-12 reps.

by explosive i mean giving the best possible acceleration when pushing pulling and slowing down when going back with bar/dumbell for static tension.
Power is force times velocity,so giving the best possible acceleration you will increase your power(all that matters in the end,aint?)

thats what im doing now

p.s just be careful not to injure urself(warm up properly))

[joelash302]

i guess the general consensus would be:
cutting = higher rep / higher volume / medium weight (8x4, 10x3, 12-10-8-6, or 15-12-10-8)
bulking = lower rep / lower volume / heavy weight (5x5, 8-6-4)

Disagree with just this part (rest looked good). When cutting, the general consensus on these boards is heavy weight, high intensity, reps are in dispute and depend on how intense you can go (can do a ton of singles/doubles or 5x5 and call it a day). It's "easier" (aka still sucks but works better) to keep your muscle mass together when you are pushing high intensity compared to burning out a ton of half ass reps.