Official Law Student/Lawyer Thread

[walshyn93]

Mind = blown that you can enter law right after high school in the UK. Is this correct? What's the process like?

It's nuts here in Canada. Need to write the LSAT, score well, and have a decent GPA with a 4 year degree to even be considered at the 'lowest-ranked' schools. In the U.S at least you can buy your way into a chit school, hence the market saturation down there.

Same thing here in Ireland.

Here's what the process is like:

-apply for courses in order of preference
-sit leaving cert exams
-get results
-results are in points form
-places on course are allocated based on points
-some courses require more points than others based on demand/quality of applicant (medicine always being highest)
-meet points requirement=receive offer
-you only receive one offer, if you get your first preference you have to take it second preference same deal, or wait until next year and reapply

No interviews, no affirmative action, completely unbiased anonymous application system. You get the points you get in you don't you don't. Best system in the world.

[BrbGettingSwole]

Same thing here in Ireland.

Here's what the process is like:

-apply for courses in order of preference
-sit leaving cert exams
-get results
-results are in points form
-places on course are allocated based on points
-some courses require more points than others based on demand/quality of applicant (medicine always being highest)
-meet points requirement=receive offer
-you only receive one offer, if you get your first preference you have to take it second preference same deal, or wait until next year and reapply

No interviews, no affirmative action, completely unbiased anonymous application system. You get the points you get in you don't you don't. Best system in the world.

So your whole career is based on one test which is general and likely has nothing to do with what you'll be doing? Best system in the world...

[walshyn93]

So your whole career is based on one test which is general and likely has nothing to do with what you'll be doing? Best system in the world...

It's actually a series of different exams, you can choose your own subjects and there's continuous assessment in a lot of them. If you don't like your results you can repeat the following year and many do.

I should have said fairest system in the world because it's not open to any personal bias whatsoever. It also ensures the best students or the ones who study the hardest get into the most sought after courses.


There's also lots of different ways to get into different careers, especially the most sought after ones. For instance if you want to do medicine but can't get the points you can just do science for 4 years and then do medicine as a graduate for 4 years and probably become a doctor in as many years as someone in American university.

[BrbGettingSwole]

Finished law school today! aaaand now for the bar, fml

[hidingwithmusic]

will rep x4

I spoke to a medical malpractice lawyer Friday and I have a case. I have schizoaffective disorder where I have both schizophrenia and major depression. I was having a psychotic episode and walked to the hospital emergency room. I was turned away from seeing a doctor by two nurses and a security guard. (The people in that town are really bad people). The next day I was still having a psychotic episode and I went to a hotel and I was arrested. The sheriffs took me out of the jail and brought me to a different hospital in the area where I was sent off to a mental hospital. I lost my car to the impound because I could not take it out.

I can call my lawyer tomorrow(which I will)to ask him this, but how much money can i earn other than the car damages? He said that being arrested because of the hhospital's wrong can be a really good case.

[BrbGettingSwole]

I think most of us here aren't licensed to practice law yet, and giving legal advice over the internet is a bad idea anyway. Sorry man, hope it works out well for you.

[outdoorsofficer]

Is anyone else using Themis for bar review? Specifically for the Multistate UBE? I'm about 27% done with the program and just had the first milestone exam yesterday. The milestone exam covered, torts, contracts, and con law. Got almost all the torts and con law correct, completely bombed contracts. July 28th and 29th can't go and go soon enough.

[BrbGettingSwole]

Is anyone else using Themis for bar review? Specifically for the Multistate UBE? I'm about 27% done with the program and just had the first milestone exam yesterday. The milestone exam covered, torts, contracts, and con law. Got almost all the torts and con law correct, completely bombed contracts. July 28th and 29th can't go and go soon enough.

I'm using Themis but not for a UBE jurisdiction. My milestone exam yesterday was contracts, torts, and property.

[outdoorsofficer]

I'm using Themis but not for a UBE jurisdiction. My milestone exam yesterday was contracts, torts, and property.

Damnit I'm losing my mind. I meant property. I did well on property and torts, but not contracts. I did a set of con law questions afterwards. Ok we had the same milestone exam then. I got 51%. It says the average of people that have taken it is 58%. I rushed mine and had music on though so I think I would have performed better had I taken it more seriously. I wish it showed the actual distributions.

[Sebstan01]

Finished law school today! aaaand now for the bar, fml

Congrats! All the best!

Damnit I'm losing my mind. I meant property. I did well on property and torts, but not contracts. I did a set of con law questions afterwards. Ok we had the same milestone exam then. I got 51%. It says the average of people that have taken it is 58%. I rushed mine and had music on though so I think I would have performed better had I taken it more seriously. I wish it showed the actual distributions.

I have Con law and Evidence coming up. I just spent ~ 2 hours making cliffs of the Engineer's Case. Don't even get me started on Evidence. The things I'd do, to be able to take Contracts again, srs (did it last year).
All the best to anyone giving exams at the moment.

[outdoorsofficer]

Congrats! All the best!




I have Con law and Evidence coming up. I just spend ~ 2 hours making cliffs of the Engineer's Case. Don't even get me started on Evidence. The things I'd do, to be able to take Contracts again, srs (did it last year).
All the best to anyone giving exams at the moment.

2 hours making cliffs lol atleast you'll be prepared to get called on! Maybe I should actually study instead of misc...

[Sebstan01]

2 hours making cliffs lol atleast you'll be prepared to get called on! Maybe I should actually study instead of misc...

That case though...federalism will be the end of me. I think I dozed off then woke up again w/my laptop still on (it's 3:56 AM here and I'm on here).
What exams do you have on?

Re: Evidence--it's just the issue-spotting/procedural rules that are annoying IMO. It's an open book exam but don't let that fool ya, hah! We've all suddenly re-gained our faith in God...few days before Evidence. Hmmm...

[MichielN]

fuark brahs in three weeks i'll probably have graduated, Bachelor of Laws (LLB) that is

das it mane

[outdoorsofficer]

That case though...federalism will be the end of me. I think I dozed off then woke up again w/my laptop still on (it's 3:56 AM here and I'm on here).
What exams do you have on?

Re: Evidence--it's just the issue-spotting/procedural rules that are annoying IMO. It's an open book exam but don't let that fool ya, hah! We've all suddenly re-gained our faith in God...few days before Evidence. Hmmm...

Oh I'm all done with law school exams, I'm on the bar exam now (the actual licensing exam to be a lawyer in the States). At your point I'd just go to sleep haha and keep my fingers crossed for tomorrow. Good luck on that evidence exam.

And congrats MichielN. Its a good feeling.

[Sebstan01]

Oh I'm all done with law school exams, I'm on the bar exam now (the actual licensing exam to be a lawyer in the States). At your point I'd just go to sleep haha and keep my fingers crossed for tomorrow. Good luck on that evidence exam.
And congrats MichielN. Its a good feeling.

Thank you! Phew, bar exam--more serious for you, than me. All the best.

fuark brahs in three weeks i'll probably have graduated, Bachelor of Laws (LLB) that is
das it mane

Congrats and all the best!

[BrbGettingSwole]

Damnit I'm losing my mind. I meant property. I did well on property and torts, but not contracts. I did a set of con law questions afterwards. Ok we had the same milestone exam then. I got 51%. It says the average of people that have taken it is 58%. I rushed mine and had music on though so I think I would have performed better had I taken it more seriously. I wish it showed the actual distributions.

Nice. I got a 77, but I'm coming from a pretty strong background in Property and Real Estate so I makeup for losses elsewhere with those questions.

[LordBroski]

Got our grades back for first year. Best mark was in constitutional law (surprised I didn't get an A+ though). Federalism is confusing as hell, but the Charter is fascinating as fuk (Canadian brah here).

[HGM1989]

Start 1L year in the fall. Any upperclassman or grads have advice (inb4 d on't go).

[outdoorsofficer]

Start 1L year in the fall. Any upperclassman or grads have advice (inb4 d on't go).

My advice to you is to: 1. Download outlines for your specific courses/instructors from outlinedepot.com 2. Always read the cases, notes following the cases, everything. Do the reading for class so you don't look like a jacka$$ when you're cold called. 3. Having said 2, always utilize casebriefs.com to ensure you have the right issue/rule/holding for when you are called on. 4. always volunteer for softball questions. This will not make you a gunner. Exuding confidence when answering easy questions such as facts and rules established in previous questions keeps you from getting skylined.

Secondary advice: 5. don'r worry about getting all caught up in gpa and class rank like a lot of worry warts. A lot of these losers at law school think "top 10%" is all that matters. Need "big law." Ok whatever. The misc is actually right about having charisma during interviews and being a real person; being able to socialize with your interviewers, have a sense of humor, show that you can talk with people. So many people who go to law school (including many at the top of their class) have zero social skills that hurts them in the interviews. The position I am in right now is great compared to a lot of people higher in class ranks than me just because I know how to socialize.

What school are you starting in the fall?

[outdoorsofficer]

Nice. I got a 77, but I'm coming from a pretty strong background in Property and Real Estate so I makeup for losses elsewhere with those questions.

Good work man.

Lord Broski - congrats on the good marks. It was a little nerve racking getting those back first year.

[Sebstan01]

Got our grades back for first year. Best mark was in constitutional law (surprised I didn't get an A+ though). Federalism is confusing as hell, but the Charter is fascinating as fuk (Canadian brah here).

Federalism is like one of those stoner kids who hung around under the bleachers for the most part their high school career; pretty alright once you get to know it, but kind of a pain in the ass if you have to come across it on a daily basis.
Good job on your mark though!

Start 1L year in the fall. Any upperclassman or grads have advice (inb4 d on't go).

All the best. I largely agree with the advice given by outdoorsofficer, especially the bolded—

My advice to you is to: 1. Download outlines for your specific courses/instructors from outlinedepot.com 2. Always read the cases, notes following the cases, everything. Do the reading for class so you don't look like a jacka$$ when you're cold called.

Seriously, do the readings and work on outlines for each class (try to get those done in that very same week so that exam revision isn’t too much of a pain in terms of note consolidation). Also, not sure how it works where you’re at, but—we have 1 hour tutorials in addition to 2 hour lectures. GO to every single one of those tutes, seriously. Even if attendance isn’t awarded a mark, some of the tute discussions really cleared up a lot of my questions. Consequently, there were times (esp. at the start) where I’d missed a few tutes and ended up mentally punching myself for it.
In such a line, you just can’t expect to get a decent/high mark if you leave things until the last minute. By comparison, some of my Econ. units were left until the last minute (main focus was law); bad on my part, but the scope for a high mark is amazing if you at least have a general gist of the subject. Try doing that with Law and…actually, don’t try it.

Also…

Secondary advice: 5. don'r worry about getting all caught up in gpa and class rank like a lot of worry warts. A lot of these losers at law school think "top 10%" is all that matters.

Interesting that you say this; you’re going to hate me, lol, I’m one of those mark snobs to the point where I get mentally demoralised if I don't "deliver" (mostly out of fear re: future prospects though). However, I have heard people give advice in line w/your own—that it isn’t strictly about grades and other factors are also significant.

[woodsmash]

^following on from those points. Marks aren't the be all end all but I've talked to a few people from law firms and a person who has done HR for law firms for graduates and clerkships and marks are still fairly important. They use it as a sort of indicator to filter through and cull the bottom half of applicants. This applies more for Australia but from what I've been told so long as you've got a respectable GPA and a good CV with relevant experience then I've been told you should be fine in that department.

[HGM1989]

My advice to you is to: 1. Download outlines for your specific courses/instructors from outlinedepot.com 2. Always read the cases, notes following the cases, everything. Do the reading for class so you don't look like a jacka$$ when you're cold called. 3. Having said 2, always utilize casebriefs.com to ensure you have the right issue/rule/holding for when you are called on. 4. always volunteer for softball questions. This will not make you a gunner. Exuding confidence when answering easy questions such as facts and rules established in previous questions keeps you from getting skylined.

Secondary advice: 5. don'r worry about getting all caught up in gpa and class rank like a lot of worry warts. A lot of these losers at law school think "top 10%" is all that matters. Need "big law." Ok whatever. The misc is actually right about having charisma during interviews and being a real person; being able to socialize with your interviewers, have a sense of humor, show that you can talk with people. So many people who go to law school (including many at the top of their class) have zero social skills that hurts them in the interviews. The position I am in right now is great compared to a lot of people higher in class ranks than me just because I know how to socialize.

What school are you starting in the fall?

Thanks bruh, I appreciate the good advice. I think you're spot on about having social skills and being charismatic. I'll actually be going to UNC-Chapel Hill in the fall. I'm pretty excited, but nervous as hell at the same time.

[Glutamine1]

Just curious, but do attorneys ever sleep with paralegals in the same firm? How often does the whole firm go out for happy hour on the weekdays and what not? Seems like there can be a lot of sexual tension between a paralegal and attorney? Is it common for a paralegal to stay late at work?

[MaxwH]

Start 1L year in the fall. Any upperclassman or grads have advice (inb4 d on't go).

I generally agree with the other advice given, but I'll tell you what I wish folks had told me before my 1L year, and I can't stress this enough:

Don't take it personally or get insanely embarrassed/ashamed when you get called on and look like a fool.

This will happen, and it will happen over and over again, I guarantee it. It's all part of the hazing process that is your first year; profs do it to weed out the weak.

It's terrible at first - feel like an idiot, get red faced, think everyone's laughing at you (and your substantive first year courses will be very large). Even worse if you're lucky enough to get a prof who is relentless with the Socratic method BS - calls at random, doesn't let up when a kid is obviously unprepared or underprepared. The better profs just move on, but some will grill you for 20-30 minutes and just shred you to bits.

Sounds bad, and like I said, it is at first; but you need to get used to it and learn to brush it off quickly. The truth is that, the minute that class ends, nobody is going to remember those 20-30 minutes. More than likely they were just relieved that it wasn't them, as well as being empathetic.

The sooner you learn to brush off looking like a dork if you get called on and aren't entirely sure of the facts/holding/procedural posture/whatever of a particular case, the sooner you can start concentrating on what actually matters at the end of the day: the black letter law and how to apply it.

My Contracts prof told our class something that has stuck with me, and it's the straight up truth: "The cases don't matter. The point of studying them is to help you understand the concepts being taught. The cases all drop away at the end of the semester and you're left with the black letter law. That's what you need to know."

During your exams it'll be nice to be able to analogize/distinguish a case or two while discussing a fact pattern to possibly earn a couple points, but you only need to be familiar with them in the general sense. You're not going to be describing the model of vehicle that Defendant was driving when he negligently ran a red light and injured Plaintiff in that one case you read way back at the beginning of the semester. That BS means nothing; don't waste your brainpower memorizing it.

To that end, I recommend picking up a used E&E or other law summary for each class, and following along with it as you progress through the semester. That's been a lifesaver for me in many classes. Also recommend OutlineDepot as well. Always write your own outline, but it helps a lot to have another outline or two from different students to compare yours to. Finally, when you get the chance to sign up for Barbri, go ahead and shell out that $20 initial deposit. Gives you access to the Barbri site, which includes hours and hours of video lectures on all of your 1L subjects by some of the best professors in the nation. Freer's Civ Pro lectures took me from being convinced that I was going to bomb the hell out of that exam to a B+, all in the period of about a week. More than worth it.

Good luck brah, and get ready for a totally unique experience.

*Posting from my summer Estates & Trusts class (3 hours long, hold me brahs).

[Future24]

My advice to you is to: 1. Download outlines for your specific courses/instructors from outlinedepot.com 2. Always read the cases, notes following the cases, everything. Do the reading for class so you don't look like a jacka$$ when you're cold called. 3. Having said 2, always utilize casebriefs.com to ensure you have the right issue/rule/holding for when you are called on. 4. always volunteer for softball questions. This will not make you a gunner. Exuding confidence when answering easy questions such as facts and rules established in previous questions keeps you from getting skylined.

Secondary advice: 5. don'r worry about getting all caught up in gpa and class rank like a lot of worry warts. A lot of these losers at law school think "top 10%" is all that matters. Need "big law." Ok whatever. The misc is actually right about having charisma during interviews and being a real person; being able to socialize with your interviewers, have a sense of humor, show that you can talk with people. So many people who go to law school (including many at the top of their class) have zero social skills that hurts them in the interviews. The position I am in right now is great compared to a lot of people higher in class ranks than me just because I know how to socialize.

What school are you starting in the fall?

I agree with the latter. Also NETWORK man. I got a job that only hired people who finished their 2L year. They set a requirement online that said 2Ls only. Well I networked, destroyed my interview, and now I am there. I am top 25-30% of my class too so nothing crazy

[liore22]

I've heard conflicting stories about reading the cases in their entirety + looking at the footnotes/precedent cases/lower court cases.

Your thoughts? TLS says it doesn't help.

[MaxwH]

I've heard conflicting stories about reading the cases in their entirety + looking at the footnotes/precedent cases/lower court cases.

Your thoughts? TLS says it doesn't help.

In my experience, everyone starts out briefing much too extensively. Writing out multi-page documents with procedure/facts/holding/reasoning/discussion. This is extremely inefficient and a waste of time. Far better is to "book brief." Use different colored highlighters to designate the relevant facts/holding/reasoning and mark your book up that way. Put your notes in the margins.

As for reading the cases in their entirety, everyone will likely have a different opinion. As for me, I don't spend much time on them at all as a rising 3L. I just book brief them and look up a few canned briefs online to complement. The black letter law is what's important at the end of the semester, not the random facts of any particular case. That said, it's a good idea to brief in the traditional way for a few weeks during your first semester so you can get the hang of distilling the court's reasoning and quickly identifying relevant and irrelevant facts.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "looking at the footnotes/precedent cases/lower court cases." If your prof wants you to read the notes after the cases, it's a good idea to be familiar with them. Likewise with circuit/SCOTUS cases and district/trial court cases. You'll go over them all in any given class.

[Darknight8519]

In my experience, everyone starts out briefing much too extensively. Writing out multi-page documents with procedure/facts/holding/reasoning/discussion. This is extremely inefficient and a waste of time. Far better is to "book brief." Use different colored highlighters to designate the relevant facts/holding/reasoning and mark your book up that way. Put your notes in the margins.

As for reading the cases in their entirety, everyone will likely have a different opinion. As for me, I don't spend much time on them at all as a rising 3L. I just book brief them and look up a few canned briefs online to complement. The black letter law is what's important at the end of the semester, not the random facts of any particular case. That said, it's a good idea to brief in the traditional way for a few weeks during your first semester so you can get the hang of distilling the court's reasoning and quickly identifying relevant and irrelevant facts.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "looking at the footnotes/precedent cases/lower court cases." If your prof wants you to read the notes after the cases, it's a good idea to be familiar with them. Likewise with circuit/SCOTUS cases and district/trial court cases. You'll go over them all in any given class.

Know the general rule in cases. That is most important. I never found all this highlighting to be helpful. Underline the rule, in the margins write in notes related to the rule. My professors would cold call you out in class and make you post your class briefing in an online forum and then have the case brief put on the overhead in front of class to see if you briefed the right way. Everyone hated that chit as the professor would then proceed to rip you apart.

When briefing I have found 1) get case history of the case, 2) holding 3) 3 sentences or so about how the fact pattern 4) rational for holding. You do that then you will have it covered. If you want an in-depth understanding then compare the rational in the present case to the rational in the lower court rulings.

In terms of supplemental materials, yes they are useful. But the best way to learn these cases when starting out is putting things into your own words when you brief them, not borrow them. It will force you to really grapple with the rational of the case which should lead to a deeper understanding. Good luck.

[Darknight8519]

Finished law school today! aaaand now for the bar, fml

Ah dat feel. Good luck brah. You doing Barberi bar prep?