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  1. #1621
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by yesbuddie View Post
    Just wondering about having a Lunch for cutting:

    Usually I'd have 2 apples and 1/2 a tub of Yogurt . The*Yogurt is around 180 calories & fairly high in sugar.*

    I was going to switch my meal for something healthier.*

    I was thinking of a *2 ham Sandwich so 2 slices & bread, 2 slides of ham & some low fat butter. I would toast the sandwich on a George Foreman. Although the ham*sandwiches*for lunch would be more calories I would of thought it would of being healthier & more substantial?*

    Any feedback is*appreciated*
    Personal preference.

    "Healthy" is subjective. If you think ham sandwiches are healthier than apples and yogurt then go for it.
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  2. #1622
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    I ate healthy yesterday on my cut.

    Breakfast: 3 Eggs, 4 sausage, home fries and toast. 900cals.
    Lunch: Chicken fingers. 700cals.
    Snack: BBQ crispers. 200 cals.
    Dinner: Deluxe thin crust pizza. 700 cals.
    Total: 2550 cals.

    That's grease for breakfast, breaded meat for lunch, chips for a snack and more grease for dinner. How much healthier can I get and still be losing weight? LOL

  3. #1623
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    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post
    If you're getting enough protein and lifting hard then you're following 2/3 rules.

    If you're gaining weight at a reasonable rate (if trying to bulk) then you're following the 3rd rule.

    Why do you think the amount of carbs or fats would effect body composition if the above is met?
    Honestly I don't know, that's mainly why I asked. So far most of my effort has been toward trying to cut body fat and retain muscle, so most of the reading and info I've looked into has been related to that. I think I have a much better understanding than when I started of what to expect when you're in a deficit, but not as much as when in a surplus.

  4. #1624
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ryoaska1 View Post
    Honestly I don't know, that's mainly why I asked. So far most of my effort has been toward trying to cut body fat and retain muscle, so most of the reading and info I've looked into has been related to that. I think I have a much better understanding than when I started of what to expect when you're in a deficit, but not as much as when in a surplus.
    Same process. Different scale direction.

    Originally Posted by WaveLength
    2 Bulking and Recomping

    The only factor that changes for bulking or recomping is that the rate of weight change X is positive resp. zero. All other essential rules are exactly the same as for cutting (see sections above).

    You should gain slower than you lose probably gain 1-3lbs/month vs losing 4-8lbs/month
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    just wanted to give another thank you and shout out to wave, idrive, and everyone else contributing to this post. got down to 170 last week and im happy with my results... not sure exactly what i started at but i have no doubt in my mind that i lost A LOT of fat. very pleased and moving on to recomp/clean bulking/who knows what but will be keeping the 3 rules in mind, they def work. thanks again!!
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  6. #1626
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    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post
    Same process. Different scale direction.




    You should gain slower than you lose probably gain 1-3lbs/month vs losing 4-8lbs/month
    Hi iDrive, do you think that the rate of fat gain during a bulk is affected by*existing*body fat levels eg: higher body fat % person stores fat faster than lower body fat % person or is it just that the lower you start the longer you have before you have to cut again? (Assuming all conditions are equal)

    Also I have been reading "How much protein" by Brad Pilon" I wonder if you have had a chance to read it and if you have any opinions on it. I have little idea as to Brad Pilons credibility being that he does sell his stuff a lot online. But the reason I am interested is that it does seem to back up other studies in the links below and he does claim (Brad) to have worked within the Supplement industry and to have had access to the company*sponsored*protein studies that were never revealed to the public or revealed in manipulative ways.

    Anyway this was the link I found to 'How Much Protien' by Brad Pilon
    ( I guess it must be a light version as it was free)

    http://femidav.strana.de/HowMuchProtein.pdf

    and the other links on protein requirements I put up before:

    Studies from pubmed:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post297242231

    A thread from 2009 that kicked off the debate:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post282463311

    Sorry not trying to complicate things just curious is all, and of course looking to cut down on my protein as it is expensive heh!
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  7. #1627
    Registered User Bombariel's Avatar
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    I like this thread because it contains some good advice for newbies. Though it also demonstrates how everybody has their very own opinion even on the how to lose weight issue.

  8. #1628
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mozzi101 View Post
    Hi iDrive, do you think that the rate of fat gain during a bulk is affected by*existing*body fat levels eg: higher body fat % person stores fat faster than lower body fat % person or is it just that the lower you start the longer you have before you have to cut again? (Assuming all conditions are equal)
    So assuming both are working out with the same intensity and at the same surplus I don't think it would matter. The thing is when people are lean and "bulk" they often put on fat which masks itself as "muscle" because the muscles are fuller initially then they add fat onto that and it takes longer before they start to lose any separation they had where as if you started higher you'd lose the separation earlier and realize that you're fat-bulking.

    I've never bulked so I can't say from experience but I'm not aware of any reasons why it wouldn't be the same for a lean and fat individual as far as fat gain all things being equal.


    Also I have been reading "How much protein" by Brad Pilon" I wonder if you have had a chance to read it and if you have any opinions on it. I have little idea as to Brad Pilons credibility being that he does sell his stuff a lot online. But the reason I am interested is that it does seem to back up other studies in the links below and he does claim (Brad) to have worked within the Supplement industry and to have had access to the company*sponsored*protein studies that were never revealed to the public or revealed in manipulative ways.

    Sorry not trying to complicate things just curious is all, and of course looking to cut down on my protein as it is expensive heh!
    I haven't read "How much protein" but I do respect Brad for his work on Eat Stop Eat and he is definitely knowledgeable. Since I haven't read the book I'm not sure what he recommends but my own take on protein is that 1g/lb/LBM is a great target but I'm not going to stress if I don't hit it.

    The way I look at it is that I lift for recreation, it's not my job to be stage or competition ready so I'm not going to stress over my workout or diet as much. I get where you're coming from; Protein is expensive (whey powder or meat) and I'm not going to break the bank just to eat a lb of meat or drink 2-3 shakes a day.

    If you do care about optimal body composition and preserving every ounce of muscle then by all means go for the gusto, my goals aren't everyone else's goals. My personal order of importance goes Calories, lifting, protein.
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  9. #1629
    Registered User ryoaska1's Avatar
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    wondering if anyone has any good links with controlled studies debunking ideas about ketosis being any better for fat loss than other diets of same calorie level/protein amount/level of activity etc. I have a co-worker that keeps trying to insist that ketosis is some kind of magical state where calories in vs calories out doens't apply, and you can lose fat even at a surplus. He claimed to be losing 1.5 lbs a day eating 3000 kCal and doing nothing for activity...

    It seems like common sense to me that it is just not possible to eat more energy than your body uses and not only avoid storing any of it as fat, but also LOSE fat. I tried to tell him that he was probably seeing some water weight loss initially but he was not hearing it. Then another extremely...large.. co-worker backed him up and tried to tell me that even if you're eating at a 1000 calorie deficit, if it's made of white bread you'll gain fat! She said the only reason I got the same results eating 'clean' as when I ate watver I wanted and followed the 3 rules was because I'm a 'skinny bastard'(yeah, a skinny bastar that's still about 22% body fat...)

    Of course, about 10 minutes later she saw an email that there was free cake in the cafeteria and made a beeline for the door, so... yeah damn my magical skinny ass :P

  10. #1630
    Registered boozer mozzi101's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post

    I've never bulked so I can't say from experience but I'm not aware of any reasons why it wouldn't be the same for a lean and fat individual as far as fat gain all things being equal.

    *


    I haven't read "How much protein" but I do respect Brad for his work on Eat Stop Eat and he is definitely knowledgeable. Since I haven't read the book I'm not sure what he recommends but my own take on protein is that 1g/lb/LBM is a great target but I'm not going to stress if I don't hit it.

    The way I look at it is that I lift for recreation, it's not my job to be stage or competition ready so I'm not going to stress over my workout or diet as much. I get where you're coming from; Protein is expensive (whey powder or meat) and I'm not going to break the bank just to eat a lb of meat or drink 2-3 shakes a day.

    If you do care about optimal body composition and preserving every ounce of muscle then by all means go for the gusto, my goals aren't everyone else's goals. My personal order of importance goes Calories, lifting, protein.
    ---------
    Cool thanks iDrive, that would be my guess also as it seems common sense, but I constantly read peoples claims of having much better LBM gains because they cut down to very low body fat first but I guess they just mean they look leaner for longer which would be the case.
    ----------

    I hope I am ok to say this as I give no direct quotes from the pdf!

    In essence he (Brad) claims there is no link between*excess*protein and additional muscle/muscle recovery and this has been proven over a multitude of tests conducted in private by the supplement companies, this can even be demonstrated in steroid users vs non steroid users. For body builders*protein is needed by the body but only slightly more than normal, as in, protein is not the magic substance to get bigger muscles at all and that the only substances that directly leads to increased muscle growth (above normal) that can be scientifically demonstrated are either, creatin or steroids, with genetics being a given.

    He (Brad) doesn't mention the*satiating*effects of protein that can aid dieting or that the body has more difficulty breaking down protein into body fat above carbs and fats, they may be factors that assist body*builders*who eat huge amounts stay leaner, i'm just just guessing here.

    So I guess then that the conclusion that I am coming to is that protein, beyond a certain amount (like a slightly more than a normal non training persons diet amount) is not needed, so that really the only factors involved here for either gaining muscle or losing weight are training with weights and reducing/increasing calories to lose/gain weight/muscle and that if you like those extra calories in the form of protein go for it but it actually wont help anything other than maybe! keeping you less hungry for longer.

    If you are looking for ways to*maximize*muscle growth then look at better training systems and take creatin.

    It would be nice to hear from some body builders who do not gorge protein and have had successful muscle building results in a normal amount of time to speak up here so that I can go and throw out my cans of tuna, heh!*
    Last edited by mozzi101; 08-11-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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  11. #1631
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ryoaska1 View Post
    wondering if anyone has any good links with controlled studies debunking ideas about ketosis being any better for fat loss than other diets of same calorie level/protein amount/level of activity etc. I have a co-worker that keeps trying to insist that ketosis is some kind of magical state where calories in vs calories out doens't apply, and you can lose fat even at a surplus. He claimed to be losing 1.5 lbs a day eating 3000 kCal and doing nothing for activity...
    Not on hand I don't. Poke around with search in the nutrition forum and you can probably find some studies from the last year or 2 when people were debunking the "magical" powers of keto. Comb through Alans posts too I'm sure he had some good nuggets in there as well. Nothing wrong with keto but when people believe it works for reasons that just aren't true it can be frustrating.

    Originally Posted by mozzi101 View Post
    If you are looking for ways to*maximize*muscle growth then look at better training systems and take creatin.

    It would be nice to hear from some body builders who do not gorge protein and have had successful muscle building results in a normal amount of time to speak up here so that I can go and throw out my cans of tuna, heh!*
    I doubt there are many BB's who don't gorge on protein... It's been hard enough trying to convince people that meal timing & frequency is largely irrelevant.
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  12. #1632
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    the topic is very nice, overall bodybuilding forum is the best!
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    I am currently following the 3 rules and I completely understand that this is all that is required to lose fat, however just was wondering if adding in 40 mins steady state cardio in my off days would make me change my diet to raise the calories. I'm following the Macros guide in the Nutrition section sticky which has me at 2480 cals, 182g protein, 80g fat, 240g carbs (seems a bit high to me). I'm currently 5'11, 252lbs so definitely a bunch of fat to lose. Thanks in advance for any input.

    Edit: Forgot to add the reason I'm wanting to add cardio is for cardiovascular/heart purposes, not necessarily for fat loss alone. And yes, I know if you're lifting correctly and without a lot of time in between sets/exercises, it gets my heart rate going as well.

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    Although I agree with the info in this topic (i.e., eat less calories results in fat loss), I prefer to eat clean. I eat clean, because I noticed that I start putting fat around my jaw and neck area if I eat junk food (even though i am losing body fat overall). I prefer to have a defined jaw line than a six pack with fat pudgy face. I don't know if you guys experience the same when it comes to eating "junk" food.

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    Originally Posted by Descender421 View Post
    I am currently following the 3 rules and I completely understand that this is all that is required to lose fat, however just was wondering if adding in 40 mins steady state cardio in my off days would make me change my diet to raise the calories. I'm following the Macros guide in the Nutrition section sticky which has me at 2480 cals, 182g protein, 80g fat, 240g carbs (seems a bit high to me). I'm currently 5'11, 252lbs so definitely a bunch of fat to lose. Thanks in advance for any input.
    Edit: Forgot to add the reason I'm wanting to add cardio is for cardiovascular/heart purposes, not necessarily for fat loss alone. And yes, I know if you're lifting correctly and without a lot of time in between sets/exercises, it gets my heart rate going as well.
    Nothing in the 3 rules that says you can't do cardio, just that it's not essential for losing fat. If you want to do it go for it, and like you said you can eat more to compensate- or not. You can decide for yourself based on how your various indicators are doing (measurements/scale/visual) etc.

    Originally Posted by jaimeg123prmt View Post
    Although I agree with the info in this topic (i.e., eat less calories results in fat loss), I prefer to eat clean. I eat clean, because I noticed that I start putting fat around my jaw and neck area if I eat junk food (even though i am losing body fat overall). I prefer to have a defined jaw line than a six pack with fat pudgy face. I don't know if you guys experience the same when it comes to eating "junk" food.
    when I put on fat it's usually on my stomach (and on the sides of my chest for some reason... : / ) I've never had a situation where I was in a net deficit/losing fat but adding it somewhere else...seems strange to me. Are you talking about this happening when you eat junk food and keeping the exact same deficit, or just eating junk food and not paying attention to calories... Junk food is usually high in carbs and sodium, maybe puffiness from water weight? idk, I'd expect that to show in more than just the face, but I guess everyone is different.
    Last edited by ryoaska1; 08-11-2011 at 07:03 PM.

  16. #1636
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Descender421 View Post
    I am currently following the 3 rules and I completely understand that this is all that is required to lose fat, however just was wondering if adding in 40 mins steady state cardio in my off days would make me change my diet to raise the calories. I'm following the Macros guide in the Nutrition section sticky which has me at 2480 cals, 182g protein, 80g fat, 240g carbs (seems a bit high to me). I'm currently 5'11, 252lbs so definitely a bunch of fat to lose. Thanks in advance for any input.

    Edit: Forgot to add the reason I'm wanting to add cardio is for cardiovascular/heart purposes, not necessarily for fat loss alone. And yes, I know if you're lifting correctly and without a lot of time in between sets/exercises, it gets my heart rate going as well.
    Cardio isn't bad, if you can stand it then you should do it but if you absolutely hate it it's not necessary. As you have a lot to lose I wouldn't adjust calories, just do the cardio.


    Originally Posted by jaimeg123prmt View Post
    Although I agree with the info in this topic (i.e., eat less calories results in fat loss), I prefer to eat clean. I eat clean, because I noticed that I start putting fat around my jaw and neck area if I eat junk food (even though i am losing body fat overall). I prefer to have a defined jaw line than a six pack with fat pudgy face. I don't know if you guys experience the same when it comes to eating "junk" food.
    That's fine, nobody is saying you need to eat any "junk".

    ...although one person's definition of clean/junk is different from someone else's...
    You don't try to build a wall.
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    You don't say, "I'm going to build the biggest, baddest, greatest wall that's ever been built!".
    You don't start there.

    You say, "I'm going to lay this brick as perfectly as a brick can be laid.".
    You do that every single day, and soon you'll have a wall.

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    Registered User Smoked33's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ryoaska1 View Post
    Junk food is usually high in carbs and sodium, maybe puffiness from water weight?
    ^^This.

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    Thanks iDrive and ryoaska1. I think I'll keep calories the same for now and add in cardio starting next week.

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    My 500 cal deficit is 1800 cals at 146lbs (sit on ass for 8hours of day) and I don't factor in the calories burned from weight lifting/cardio I do. I just eat my 1800 calories, should I eat back what I burn? Asking cuz my BMR is 1700 which is very close to my deficit

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    I'm really new, but long time lurker. *Please correct me if I'm wrong...


    But to Khmerkid704, it's personal preference. I personally don't eat more to make up for cardio or workouts. I find most people tend to underestimate what they are eating so it doesn't affect them much.

    If you are on a deep cut I would say don't count them and try it for a couple weeks. If you are losing more than 2lbs a week I would up your calories you are consuming. If you are happy with the rate you are losing keep things the same.

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    Originally Posted by ryoaska1 View Post
    Nothing in the 3 rules that says you can't do cardio, just that it's not essential for losing fat. If you want to do it go for it, and like you said you can eat more to compensate- or not. You can decide for yourself based on how your various indicators are doing (measurements/scale/visual) etc.

    when I put on fat it's usually on my stomach (and on the sides of my chest for some reason... : / ) I've never had a situation where I was in a net deficit/losing fat but adding it somewhere else...seems strange to me. Are you talking about this happening when you eat junk food and keeping the exact same deficit, or just eating junk food and not paying attention to calories... Junk food is usually high in carbs and sodium, maybe puffiness from water weight? idk, I'd expect that to show in more than just the face, but I guess everyone is different.
    I believe is from the fact that I don't get enough protein. While I am still losing fat, I am losing muscle, so I will look skinnier but remain soft. I don't know my body is weird. I store all my fat on my ass, lower stomach and neck/jaw area.

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    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post
    That's fine, nobody is saying you need to eat any "junk".

    ...although one person's definition of clean/junk is different from someone else's...
    yeah that is true, but I am referring to the what the health expert consider junk--white rice, saturated fat, and sugary food. My face might puff perhaps because of the high sodium, carbs and low protein in "junk" food. I'll experiment around.

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    Great thread! I started the new workout schedule today. Hopefully I'll post some results soon. Thanks for all the info.

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    So what should I believe?

    To preserve the most amount of muscle on a cut you should eat .7g per LBM or 1g per LBM?

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    Originally Posted by ilirmarku View Post
    So what should I believe?

    To preserve the most amount of muscle on a cut you should eat .7g per LBM or 1g per LBM?
    Nobody is going to be able to answer that for sure, I personally think .7g would be fine in terms of keeping muscle but there are other things to consider like would extra protein keep you feeling fuller for longer and in that way help you stick to your diet. If you read back a page or so I posted some links to protein studies that might help you make up your mind but quite honestly I don't think there is a huge difference between .7 and 1 gram anyway and 1 gram per lbm certainly is not going to do any harm if you are cutting, so if in doubt.......

    The real issue with protein intake is for body builders bulking up, taking huge amounts of expensive protein that quite possibly is of no benefit other than filling out calorie requirements.
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    Originally Posted by ilirmarku View Post
    So what should I believe?
    Whatever you want.

    To preserve the most amount of muscle on a cut you should eat .7g per LBM or 1g per LBM?
    1g/lb LBM is easier to calculate/remember so I'd suggest go with that
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    Hmm, I was told on the teen part of this site that you cant bulk "gain muscle" and cut "lose weight" at the same time??
    Like if somebody's bulking, and wants to get rid of their belly.. but they cant.

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    Does 2400 cal per day sound about right for someone 32years old, male, 6' tall 95kg?

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    [QUOTE=alexxred;735999813]Does 2400 cal per day sound about right for someone 32years old, male, 6' tall 95kg?[/QUOTED]

    Depends on your body fat... I'm 6'5" and 209 and I cut at 2200 cal right now so you might have more luck a bit lower....but depends, I'm just under 20% bf..if you're a lot lower and therefore have more LBM than I 2400 might work fine. ONly true way to know is try it for 3 weeks and see what happens.

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    Okay my aim is to be cut, and this is what I'm doing:

    1- I lift daily for 2 hours.
    2- I take Omega-3 pills.
    3- I take my daily need of protein over 7 scoops of 24g of protein per scoop (168 grams).
    4- I'm on a 1200 calorie diet. (exactly 1200, I have a subscription with a diet company).
    5- I eat assorted fruits and vegetables before sleep (1 plate).

    Am I good ?

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