MASSIVE SHOULDERS-lateral raises or shoulder press?

[gomez26]

traps & also serratus are worked by o/head press. when i dont shoulder press for a while (like earlier this yr when i had a strained shoulder) then i started again my serratus muscles are always quite sore the first few workouts.

but from a shoulder balance pt of view i dont think u will be severely compromised by not having military presses if u do heaps of bench & inclines. its guys that dont do enough back work to balance heaps of benching that develop problems.

[Orlando1234977]

Bill Starr also discusses the importance of muscles which you did not list, such as traps.

Bill Starr trains athletes, OP's question has to do with shoulder SIZE

Size has to do with exhausting AMAP muscle fibers in the shoulder.

Presses may exhaust more overall fibers in the deltoid, but when factoring in the overlap that occurs exhausted fibers from Bench Press workout, other exercises may/will result in exhausting more additional fibers.. Not to mention the fact that OP specifically mentioned side/anterior delt help..

I believe OP's goal is to maximize shoulder size, rather than using shoulder exercises to maximize Bench Press.

[Orlando1234977]

Performing overhead press for my front delts after benching 40 or 50 sets is kinda redundant

Solid!

[Kelei]

traps & also serratus are worked by o/head press.

They are also worked in plenty of other exercises, you don't need to overhead press just to train them.

[Kelei]

Example: Tak it for what it's worth:



Bill Starr also discusses the importance of muscles which you did not list, such as traps.

http://startingstrength.com/articles...raps_starr.pdf

Yes I agree that the traps and some other muscle groups also support shoulder health, however the traps and the muscles you listed are not the primary muscle groups that oppose the pressing muscle groups.

These muscles you listed are trained with other exercises, there's no need to use overhead press to hit them.

In terms of the primary muscle groups that oppose the pressing muscles you have rhomboids, rear delts, external rotators etc. Of course the lats and traps etc play a role aswell but they are not the primary opposing muscle groups.

[gomez26]

They are also worked in plenty of other exercises, you don't need to overhead press just to train them.

yes traps defly other moves are far better,
but to tell u the truth i never feel it in my serratus other than when overhead pressing. not even pullovers get them. they get regions close but not quite there. anyway its too small a muscle group to be given srs consideration from a balance pt of view.

[Kelei]

yes traps defly other moves are far better,
but to tell u the truth i never feel it in my serratus other than when overhead pressing. not even pullovers get them. they get regions close but not quite there. anyway its too small a muscle group to be given srs consideration from a balance pt of view.

Incline bench press hits the serratus anterior extremely well. In the grand scheme of things if you're worrying about your serratus you're overthinking things.

[GuyJin]

FWIW, do both overhead press and laterals. Granted, doing benches/inclines/dips will hit your front delts to a degree--more so in some trainees than in others--and it will depend on how much chest work you do--but I do think the delts need some form of press for most guys who want overall size. Upright rows with a wide grip are good for the front and side delts, but not everyone benefits from them, so they may want to toss out that movement and stick to barbell/dumbbell presses to start with. Rep-wise, that will vary, but since shoulders generally respond better to higher reps, then between 6 and 10 reps for presses is a good guideline, and higher i.e. 8-15 for laterals and bent laterals.

One more thing: I'm sure someone already mentioned this but the rear delts are often neglected so if you're doing a shoulder workout by itself, then rear delts should be trained first 90% of the time, then overhead presses and then laterals. JMO...

[buddymander]

Believe it or not dumbbell clean and presses are awesome for shoulder development.

Another exercise that seems to blow up peoples shoulders is seen at the beginning of this video of Bertil Fox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoKhC8ROkEM

[Kelei]

Believe it or not dumbbell clean and presses are awesome for shoulder development.

Another exercise that seems to blow up peoples shoulders is seen at the beginning of this video of Bertil Fox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoKhC8ROkEM

Looks like a mix between upright rows and front lateral raises using a barbell instead of dumbells. I'm gonna give this a serious trial for a while to see if it's any good, if I tear my rotator cuff I'm holding you responsible bud. I'm using standard upright rows at the moment.

[buddymander]

Looks like a mix between upright rows and front lateral raises using a barbell instead of dumbells. I'm gonna give this a serious trial for a while to see if it's any good, if I tear my rotator cuff I'm holding you responsible bud. I'm using standard upright rows at the moment.

Glad your giving it a try, remember to stay light with it.

This exercise has done more for my shoulders and my clients shoulders than any other exercise i have ever used.

One of the strange things i notice about shoulder growth is that they seem to respond to explosive movements better than any other body part, just a thought.

[BillabongVolcom]

Mike Mentzer advocated Side Laterals and Bent-over Laterals for Shoulders, and that was pretty much it. He rarely did Overhead Press/Military Press, whatever.

[Orlando1234977]

Believe it or not dumbbell clean and presses are awesome for shoulder development.

Another exercise that seems to blow up peoples shoulders is seen at the beginning of this video of Bertil Fox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoKhC8ROkEM

Do you think it hits more front shoulder though than side, compared to a more traditional Upright Row? It looks like it might. I don't know though, I've never tried them like that.

I think I may give them a try as well. To me, it looks like a great movement to finish off the shoulders and used as a final exercise of a day.. when going light.

[BillabongVolcom]

Do you think it hits more front shoulder though than side, compared to a more traditional Upright Row? It looks like it might. I don't know though, I've never tried them like that.

I think I may give them a try as well. To me, it looks like a great movement to finish off the shoulders and used as a final exercise of a day.. when going light.

I might give them a try, but it does look like it will hit more Front Delt than Side. My last Shoulder workout I did 6 sets of Cable Side Laterals, 6 sets of Wide Grip Upright Rows (Charles Glass style) and 6 sets of Bent-over Raises. Resting only 30 seconds between sets. My Delts were fried!

[buddymander]

Do you think it hits more front shoulder though than side, compared to a more traditional Upright Row? It looks like it might. I don't know though, I've never tried them like that.

I think I may give them a try as well. To me, it looks like a great movement to finish off the shoulders and used as a final exercise of a day.. when going light.

When done explosively as it should be done with some body momentum at the beginning of the movement it will take a lot of the work away from the front delts so the side delts can be worked equally.

Just remember to do them explosively and to curl the weight no less than half way or horizontal to the upper arm on the way up.

In fact you will feel the burn in your side delts even more than your front delts.

[hardgainingendo]

Um why are you benching twice a week? and yes it will over train your front delts if you do shoulder press and bench twice a week. If you want bigger shoulders then you need to do shoulder press. Front shoulder press works your front delts more, behind the head works your medial delts more. Lateral raise works your side delts, and you need to do rear delts raises to form a complete shoulder. Reverse peck delts works well for rear delts also.

YOU DON'T NEED TO BENCH TWICE A WEEK TO ADD MASS OR STRENGTH TO YOUR CHEST. one good chest workout once a week will be more than enough. I used to bench twice a week when I first started working out and then switched to once a week and my chest grew a lot a I bench 355 easily now.

i go up 15 pounds on flat bench a month doing it twice a week using nothing but creatine and protein. do u go up that fast?
dont mean it in a smart-elic way or nethign i just mean do u gain that much doing it once a week?

[Farley1324]

i go up 15 pounds on flat bench a month doing it twice a week using nothing but creatine and protein. do u go up that fast?
dont mean it in a smart-elic way or nethign i just mean do u gain that much doing it once a week?

You benching 355?

[henmaniac87]

You benching 355?

You nearly double my weight and my shoulders are still bigger. lol

[Farley1324]

You weigh almost double my weight and my shoulders are still bigger. lol

ROFL. Saying it doesn't make it true.

I request video proof of your 100 pound press.

[chinesemuscle]

i go up 15 pounds on flat bench a month doing it twice a week using nothing but creatine and protein. do u go up that fast?
dont mean it in a smart-elic way or nethign i just mean do u gain that much doing it once a week?

I plateaued doing it twice at week at 315 then switched to once a week and now i do 315 for 6-7 reps. It was a change of pace i guess. Do whatever works

[hardgainingendo]

You benching 355?

not yet but ijust started and ive been doing it wrong most of the time that i have been lifting, ive been overtraining. ive only been doing it a little over a year

[guest89]

I plateaued doing it twice at week at 315 then switched to once a week and now i do 315 for 6-7 reps. It was a change of pace i guess. Do whatever works

Its because you reached the point where you're lifting heavy enough weights so that your body now takes longer to recover.

Most lifters are not benching 300++lbs, therefore they can still be benefited by benching twice a week because their body recovers fast. Even then there is no certain number that will make you stall if you lift so many times per week... It varies person to person.



One of the most jacked (and one of the strongest) guys at my gym does chest/shoulders/arms 3x a week... I'm not sure if he maxes out every time, but the dude moves a serious amount of weight every time he is in the gym.

His incline press for reps is well over 315lbs. (Never exactly counted the exact amount of reps/weight).

[Sharksinurmouth]

One more thing: I'm sure someone already mentioned this but the rear delts are often neglected so if you're doing a shoulder workout by itself, then rear delts should be trained first 90% of the time, then overhead presses and then laterals. JMO...

Don't rear delts get hit pretty hard in pulling movements (eg rows and pull ups?)

[Kirra]

ROFL. Saying it doesn't make it true.

I request video proof of your 100 pound press.

Don't mess with him. He just curled 80lbs for 8 reps!

[blkbelt42]

Both

lower reps on press (6-8), higher reps on LR (8-12)

this^^^

[Sathanas]

Don't rear delts get hit pretty hard in pulling movements (eg rows and pull ups?)

Yes, but most people do far more benching and pressing than rowing, which leads to imbalances. If you do an even amount of back and chest work, you should be good.