Str8tFlexed - thoughts on strength training and diet?

[slowman41]

This isn't limited to just Layne, but I saw that he has a phd in nutritional sciences, so I'm interested in his opinion in particular. I figured I would start this thread here as it directly relates to strength training, and Layne seems to post here a lot (or a lot lately at the very least).

Not sure if you have read Rob Wolf's new book on Paleo, but he comes down somewhat hard on the nutritional science field in his analysis of optimal diets and the science/medicine behind present-day diets.

Also, many "big names" in the strength training fields (PL and Oly especially) tend to be partial to the Rob Wolf/Paleo way of eating, or at the very least high fat/protein and low carb. (By big names I'm talking Rip, Pendlay, Greg Everett, etc).

I've read a lot of Layne's articles about diet and training, and he seems to lean more towards the high carb/mod protein/low fat diet, granted he is also a bodybuilder before strength specific.

cliffs: I'm mainly interested to see what people think about "high fat/high protein/low carb" for training for strength primarily, versus the more common "high carb/low fat" diet. I think a large part of it is that its easier to eat (at least in the US) within the high carb/low fat diet than it is to eat high fat/low carb. With myself I find it hard to get enough cals eating low carb, and usually just end up with the more common diet.

[babyslayer]

best for strength = high everything

best for strength without gaining weight = eating as healthy as possible while staying in your calorie/protein requirements.


i think every person should start off at a baseline diet, and manipulate it until they are happy with how they feel/recovery time etc. because everyones different, some people dont use carbs well, some people dont need as much protein, etc.

[BlokHead]

I agree with babyslayer. I know my body is pretty carb intolerant. If I boosted up carb intake I would gain like 5# a day. Super sensitive to over-eating carbs. Have to keep it quite moderate to not balloon up like a fat ass.

[Heisman2]

What scientific studies does Rob Wolf come down against?

I would personally guess that any diet that gives you enough energy to go all out in your training and contains enough protein will allow you to build a lot of strength. For health/body composition fat vs. carbs may matter, but I don't see why it would matter much for strength.

[LILFATBOI]

EAT MEAT..GROW MEAT...WERE MEN LETS TRAIN AS SUCH. -l.s.

[wolfbaden6]

i think every person should start off at a baseline diet, and manipulate it until they are happy with how they feel/recovery time etc. because everyones different, some people dont use carbs well, some people dont need as much protein, etc.

This. I think it's about high time somebody comes up with a basic diet plan for athletes and then gives instructions on how to modify it to meet an individual's needs.

[mitten]

EAT MEAT..GROW MEAT...WERE MEN LETS TRAIN AS SUCH. -l.s.

l.s. ?

[LILFATBOI]

l.s. ?

little squatter aka lilfatboi

[austin.j.taylor]

EAT MEAT..GROW MEAT...WERE MEN LETS TRAIN AS SUCH. -l.s.

<--first in line to buy hicksons philosophy book.

[NC_Tarheel]

This. I think it's about high time somebody comes up with a basic diet plan for athletes and then gives instructions on how to modify it to meet an individual's needs.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that someone has already done this....

In fact, one of these people may actually be named in the title of this thread.

[austin.j.taylor]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that someone has already done this....

In fact, one of these people may actually be named in the title of this thread.

bro, i think your sarcasm detector needs calibration.

[Retardo-pex]

This isn't limited to just Layne, but I saw that he has a phd in nutritional sciences, so I'm interested in his opinion in particular. I figured I would start this thread here as it directly relates to strength training, and Layne seems to post here a lot (or a lot lately at the very least).

Not sure if you have read Rob Wolf's new book on Paleo, but he comes down somewhat hard on the nutritional science field in his analysis of optimal diets and the science/medicine behind present-day diets.

Also, many "big names" in the strength training fields (PL and Oly especially) tend to be partial to the Rob Wolf/Paleo way of eating, or at the very least high fat/protein and low carb. (By big names I'm talking Rip, Pendlay, Greg Everett, etc).

I've read a lot of Layne's articles about diet and training, and he seems to lean more towards the high carb/mod protein/low fat diet, granted he is also a bodybuilder before strength specific.

cliffs: I'm mainly interested to see what people think about "high fat/high protein/low carb" for training for strength primarily, versus the more common "high carb/low fat" diet. I think a large part of it is that its easier to eat (at least in the US) within the high carb/low fat diet than it is to eat high fat/low carb. With myself I find it hard to get enough cals eating low carb, and usually just end up with the more common diet.

High carb high fat high protein.

[LILFATBOI]

High carb high fat high protein.

Strongman style diet:

McDonalds Big Mac meal with a Wendy's Bacon Blue combo
Two dozen crispy creme dounts-(original)
3 Shamrock shakes
Half a papa Johns pizza
Half a bag of doritos
two pints ice cream-chocolate brownie, and swiss almond.
half gallon of water gatorade powder mixed in.
2 liter of coke
7 cookies (4 chocolate chip and 3 sugar)

2-3x a day.....when your strong you don't need 6 meals....you need calories.

[wolfbaden6]

Strongman style diet:

McDonalds Big Mac meal with a Wendy's Bacon Blue combo
Two dozen crispy creme dounts-(original)
3 Shamrock shakes
Half a papa Johns pizza
Half a bag of doritos
two pints ice cream-chocolate brownie, and swiss almond.
half gallon of water gatorade powder mixed in.
2 liter of coke
7 cookies (4 chocolate chip and 3 sugar)

2-3x a day.....when your strong you don't need 6 meals....you need calories.

I first started laughing at how ridiculous this sounded, but then I started thinking about how I need to try this one day...

[mitten]

shamrock shakes are dope

[RoccoTanno123]

Try re-posting this thread over at Layne's Q&A thread on the MD forums. He's an extremely busy guy; your best chance of getting a speedy response is probably posting there.

http://forums.musculardevelopment.co...h-Layne-Norton

[slowman41]

This. I think it's about high time somebody comes up with a basic diet plan for athletes and then gives instructions on how to modify it to meet an individual's needs.

well generally:

protein = building muscle
fats = helps recovery
carbs = fuels workout

adjust based on which department you feel you're lacking in.

However, in my OP I suggested that strength training athletes (reps generally at 5 or below) don't need high carbs as muscle glycogen stores and all that other broscience don't come into play, and the body can produce its own glucose to use without heavy carbs.

Also, strength training athletes (info is coming from olympic lifting teams) have suggested that they feel better, recover better, and are more "regular" on a high fat/low carb diet, vs the high carb/low fat typical diet.

I will see if I can copy/paste an article that outlines a lot of this, although its for a bulking program.

[19george]

cliffs: I'm mainly interested to see what people think about "high fat/high protein/low carb" for training for strength primarily, versus the more common "high carb/low fat" diet. I think a large part of it is that its easier to eat (at least in the US) within the high carb/low fat diet than it is to eat high fat/low carb. With myself I find it hard to get enough cals eating low carb, and usually just end up with the more common diet.

I'm in the high fat, low carb camp. Read "Good Calories, Bad calories" if you want to know why we have this notion that fat is bad for us, and why it is wrong. Wolf goes into this only briefly in his book.

There is no reason to not be able to get enough calories on a low carb diet, unless you are not getting enough fat. This seems to be the problem with many people who try to go low carb - there is not enough fat in the diet. If you are insulin resistant, you may find the first couple of weeks difficult, but after that it is smooth sailing.

Although one of the reasons that it is easier to eat high carb in this country is because govt subsidizes corn and wheat farms. Unfortunately these are the very same things that are making us sick, but that is for another discussion.

Here is part one of a really good lecture by Gary Taubes (author of Good Calories, Bad Calories) that explains why traditional nutritional science thinking in this country is just plain wrong. It's mostly on obesity and health, but there is still things that athletes can learn from it, as I think a healthy diet (particularly for those who compete in weight restricted sports) is a good diet for athletics.


I highly recommend seeing the whole thing when you have time.

[str8flexed]

the paleo diet is based on the notion that we evolved on higher protein, low grains, high fruits/veggies. Overall not a bad idea for healthy lifestyle, but we also evolved on low calorie diets. The amount of calories we eat now are likely way more than what our ancestors ate. Additionally, to my knowledge our ancestors primary concern was not becomming as optimally huge and freaky strong as possible, so I wouldn't put much stock in a diet based on how we evolved when our goals today are very different from what they were several hundred thousand years ago

[fitlover]

best for strength = high everything

best for strength without gaining weight = eating as healthy as possible while staying in your calorie/protein requirements.


i think every person should start off at a baseline diet, and manipulate it until they are happy with how they feel/recovery time etc. because everyones different, some people dont use carbs well, some people dont need as much protein, etc.

Exactly ^^^^


Some people do very well with high carbs (myself included). I did terrible on keto. So I think one or the other is only "better" if it works for you personally. If you're recovering well, sleeping well, and generally just feeling well, you know that you're doing something right.


Fat and carbs are both energy sources, so as long as your minimum fat and protein needs are met, where you get the calories from (either carbs/fat) doesn't matter really. They both have their strong points.

I suggest you give these article series by Lyle McDonald a read...

Carb and Fat Controversies:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...es-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...es-part-2.html


Comparing the diets:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ts-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ts-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ts-part-3.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ts-part-4.html

[gbg]

well generally:

protein = building muscle
fats = helps recovery
carbs = fuels workout

adjust based on which department you feel you're lacking in.

However, in my OP I suggested that strength training athletes (reps generally at 5 or below) don't need high carbs as muscle glycogen stores and all that other broscience don't come into play, and the body can produce its own glucose to use without heavy carbs.

Also, strength training athletes (info is coming from olympic lifting teams) have suggested that they feel better, recover better, and are more "regular" on a high fat/low carb diet, vs the high carb/low fat typical diet.


I will see if I can copy/paste an article that outlines a lot of this, although its for a bulking program.

Excellent point.

[fitlover]

Excellent point.

What if someone generally functions badly off of ketones?

It really is a personal thing I think. I was on keto before and felt like sh*t all the time until I had some carbs in my system.

I believe insulin sensitivity plays a role as well. If you have high insulin resistance, than you're going to feel sluggish off of high carbs. But a higher insulin sensitivity means a higher tolerance to carbs, in which case you'd function better if they were included in your diet.

[slowman41]

What if someone generally functions badly off of ketones?

It really is a personal thing I think. I was on keto before and felt like sh*t all the time until I had some carbs in my system.

I believe insulin sensitivity plays a role as well. If you have high insulin resistance, than you're going to feel sluggish off of high carbs. But a higher insulin sensitivity means a higher tolerance to carbs, in which case you'd function better if they were included in your diet.

I agree with you on this, but I have to ask how long did you stick with it?

the feeling like sh-t part means that you've adopted to being carb dependent (we all are to an extent I imagine), but supposedly it goes away after a week or 2 as your body adjusts.

I also would say that since some people seem to need more carbs then others, you could adjust the carbs upwards until you reach the amount your body needs.

granted if you're doing cardio and high rep sets, you're going to need a lot more carbs than someone slogging out heavy doubles and triples, while doing zero cardio.

[fitlover]

I agree with you on this, but I have to ask how long did you stick with it?

the feeling like sh-t part means that you've adopted to being carb dependent (we all are to an extent I imagine), but supposedly it goes away after a week or 2 as your body adjusts.

I also would say that since some people seem to need more carbs then others, you could adjust the carbs upwards until you reach the amount your body needs.

granted if you're doing cardio and high rep sets, you're going to need a lot more carbs than someone slogging out heavy doubles and triples, while doing zero cardio.

Oh, I was on it far longer than a week or two. I was on it for a good 5 months. I REALLY wanted it to work for me, because I loved all my fatty foods, haha. But my energy dropped, my workouts weren't great, I was sluggish, hungry, etc.

I also feel like more carbs benefits me because of my inclusion of GPP. But really, carbs just make me feel much better, so I eat them. I obviously don't need 500g a day to function, but I find that I recover better and my workouts are better when I don't dip below 150g. 200-250g makes me feel like a superhero.

[slowman41]

What scientific studies does Rob Wolf come down against?

Wolf comes down on the whole "nutritional science" field, in his anecdote he says he goes to a university and visits the Anthropology (I think) dept, asking them to pick a single biggest factor in human history where disease, sickness, etc became more prevalent. They unanimously cite the agricultural revolution, implying that when human diet changed over to be more grain dependent, a lot of diseases came to be or became more rampant.

He then goes to the nutritional science dept, and asks the same question, to basically get no real answer, but that they base all of their ideas off the food pyramid (I'm sure it went into more detail, just can't remember off-hand).

Its slightly "rage against the machine", but makes sense when you think about it. (for example, why corn syrup is used over sugar most of the time, because the US agriculture lobbied the gov't to impose tariffs on sugar, so its cheaper to use corn)

[gbg]

What if someone generally functions badly off of ketones?

It really is a personal thing I think. I was on keto before and felt like sh*t all the time until I had some carbs in my system.

I believe insulin sensitivity plays a role as well. If you have high insulin resistance, than you're going to feel sluggish off of high carbs. But a higher insulin sensitivity means a higher tolerance to carbs, in which case you'd function better if they were included in your diet.

Yes, insulin sensitivity does play a roll, but you really can't go on how you feel, to get an accurate reading you need a blood test.
I felt like crap as well on Keto but after a while your body adjusts, when it comes to training and keto alot of what type of training you're doing factors in, even then it takes a lot of focus to lift after being on it for a awhile. My last cut on keto I lost 25lbs in 11 weeks and about 11% bf and there were times I thought I would break but so much is mental and again training volume.

[Heisman2]

Wolf comes down on the whole "nutritional science" field, in his anecdote he says he goes to a university and visits the Anthropology (I think) dept, asking them to pick a single biggest factor in human history where disease, sickness, etc became more prevalent. They unanimously cite the agricultural revolution, implying that when human diet changed over to be more grain dependent, a lot of diseases came to be or became more rampant.

He then goes to the nutritional science dept, and asks the same question, to basically get no real answer, but that they base all of their ideas off the food pyramid (I'm sure it went into more detail, just can't remember off-hand).

Its slightly "rage against the machine", but makes sense when you think about it. (for example, why corn syrup is used over sugar most of the time, because the US agriculture lobbied the gov't to impose tariffs on sugar, so its cheaper to use corn)

There is essentially no difference between table sugar and high fructose corn syrup.

That said, thanks for your post.

I know a lot of Asians who live long, healthy lives and eat rice every day... that fact alone makes me think a fear of carbs is a little overblown. They may not be optimal but that doesn't mean they guarantee health problems. More nutritonal research is mounting though to support the paleo-diet, as well as low carb diets. It would be interesting to me to learn if eating a lot of carbs has less of a negative effect if you generally eat healthy foods and exercise regularly than if you follow a normal western lifestyle.