Losing Fat on a KETO and IF diet? GUIDANCE Please

[Maiaski]

Hi all,

I don't usually post anything but thought to go ahead today and ask for some help as my research has kind of come to a halt...I am currently trying out the keto lifestyle and have been doing so losely for the last couple of weeks with my boyfriend.

I train 5 days a week early morning and it is generally VERY intense. I heard about the IF diet via leangains and the hodgetwins so thought to give it a shot. I started it last week but am finding it difficult to be confident in eating high fat and low carb but at the same time keeping the protein to 1.0 per kg of bodyweight. I keep reading that it should be high carb...but as I have changed my lifestyle to KETO is it a little difficult for me to even want to go back to something that I have moved away from.

Currently I weigh 56.2kg and want to lose the stubborn fat around my gut area. My bodyfat percentage is 15% but would be great to get it slightly lower if possible. My aim is to be 54kg but have been plateuaing on the 56kg for nearly two weeks now. I am now fasting for 16/17 hours a day. My regime is below:

6.00am - L-carnitine + bcaa (spaced 15 mins apart)
6.30am - workout in gym
7.15am - bcaa + creatine (5g)
10.00am - bcaa
1pm - first meal
4.30pm - second meal
7.30pm - last meal
FAST UNTIL 1pm next day.

The fat in my diet is the highest macro, protein is moderate and carb is below 20g. My carbs usually consist of veg or salad. Sometimes a charcoal biscuit here and there but it is definitely kept below 20g...

I usually keep my meals to eggs, tuna, salads and veg...sometimes I chuck in a few nuts to make up the macros and some olive oil for the fat. This way I find it easier to track the macronutrients for the day.

I used to take fat burners but now I don't anymore as I would like to see what effect this has my body naturally.

I am not sure what to do here. Would I adjust the fat? Or carbs? Or even protein?

Kind of ripping my hair out here...I also want to start to training for amateur bikini contests for 2015. You can find me on instagram 'maiaski' if you want an idea of my body type...You will see the areas I am currently focusing on to improve...

As for the keto diet in general, I have now adapted to this and don't feel I can turn back as me, but it would be great to hear some suggestions and some advice if at all possible...


MUCH appreciated and much love x

[GreatArchitect]

Keto and IF wont do anything magical and make you lose fat, eating in a calorie deficit will. Make sure to track your intake of macronutrient and micronutrient for the day, stay in a cosistent calorie deficit and you will lose fat.

[Maiaski]

Keto and IF wont do anything magical and make you lose fat, eating in a calorie deficit will. Make sure to track your intake of macronutrient and micronutrient for the day, stay in a cosistent calorie deficit and you will lose fat.

Thank you for your response.

May I ask how you know this about the Keto and IF diet? Just so I can learn about it. lol!

As for the calorie deficit, I calculated my calorie intake on a keto calc on ruled me and based on the info I entered the maintenance calories were around 2200kcal, but to lose weight was 1700kcal. That is roughly a 30% deficit. But say I go lower than that to 1550kcal, would that not have negative effects on my body? That would be going over the 30% maximum recommended but not sure what to do here. I have definitely been hitting the 1700kcal mark, but am tempted to knock off 100 calories today to see what happens.

[WonderPug]

Drop all the supplements. Drop "diets" based on nifty names. And replace them with knowledge.

To start learning the basics about nutrition, please read the relevant stickies at the top of the nutrition forum as well as this:

COMPOSING A RATIONAL DIET

Advice on diet and nutrition is often based on myths and, even more so, on the marketing message of supplement companies and self-proclaimed diet gurus with agendas contrary to your interests. Please don't allow yourself, your health, your fitness goals or your wallet to be compromised by the prevalent misinformation. Learn the basics of nutrition and start engaging in healthy, rational dietary habits that can last a lifetime.

The first step is to discard biased advice on nutrition and diet, and, in its place, embrace simple logic:

Compose a diet that ensures micronutrient and macronutrient sufficiency, derived predominantly from whole and minimally processed foods if possible, with remaining caloric intake being largely discretionary within the bounds of common sense.

Caloric Intake

Energy balance is the primary dietary driver of body weight and it also impacts body composition. A chronic surplus of calories will result in increased body weight and a chronic deficit of calories will result in a loss of body weight.

In other words, in order to gain about one pound of tissue weight (as opposed to transient flux in water weight), you need to consume a total of about 3,500 calories more than you expend. And to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you have to do the opposite -- consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend.

Thus, the first step in constructing any rational diet is to get a sense of how many calories per day, on average, you should consume in order to progress towards your goals.

The average number of calories you expend per day -- called total daily energy expenditure (TDEE) -- is a function of your basal metabolic rate (BMR) and your average weekly activity level.

To estimate your BMR, it's important to have a sense of how much lean body mass (LBM) you carry. If you're not sure, post a photo or two and we can estimate your percentage body fat and, from this number and your total body weight, it's easy to estimate LBM by using the following formula:

LBM = body weight * (1 - percentage body fat)

To estimate BMR, use the the Katch-McArdle formula:

BMR = 370 + (9.8 * LBM in pounds)
or
BMR = 370 + (21.6 * LBM in kg)

The next step is to estimate average weekly activity using the following guidelines to calculate an activity factor (AF):

• 1.1 - 1.2 = Sedentary (desk job, and little formal exercise, this will be most of you students)

• 1.3 - 1.4 = Lightly Active (light daily activity and light exercise 1-3 days a week)

• 1.5 - 1.6 = Moderately Active (moderately daily Activity & moderate exercise 3-5 days a week)

• 1.7 - 1.8 = Very Active (physically demanding lifestyle & hard exercise 6-7 days a week)

• 1.9 - 2.2 = Extremely Active (athletes in endurance training or very hard physical job)

To estimate TDEE (the calories at which you will neither gain nor lose tissue weight), use the following formula:

TDEE = BMR * AF

Now that you've estimated your TDEE, it's important to refine that estimate empirically. To do so, consume an average amount of calories equal to estimated TDEE for two weeks, monitoring weight change. The results will confirm your actual TDEE.

Once you know your actually TDEE, set your caloric intake to match your goals as follows:

To maintain weight, consume an amount of calories equal to TDEE.
To lose weight, consume 10% to 20% less than TDEE.
To gain weight, consume 10% 20% more than TDEE.

Monitor weight change via the scale and also body composition via the mirror and how clothing fits, making adjustments as needed biweekly.


Macronutrient Intake

Ensure that your intake of macronutrients meets sufficiency (as defined below), with remaining macronutrient composition of the diet being largely a function of personal preference.

Ideally, ensure macronutrient sufficiency predominantly or, ideally, entirely from whole and minimally processed foods.

Protein: ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the highest amount justified by research.

Fat: ~0.45 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the lowest amount implied by clinical observation.

Remaining caloric budget: whatever mix of macronutrients you prefer -- as implied by research.

Micronutrient Intake

Take care and use good judgement in food selection and portioning to ensure that micronutrient sufficiency is reached without excessive intake from dietary sources and/or supplements.

As with macronutrient sufficiency, one should ensure micronutrient sufficiency predominantly or, ideally, entirely from whole and minimally processed foods.

To get a good sense of recommended intake of vitamins and minerals, please review this USDA guidelines webpage.

You'll find the following information particularly helpful:

Intakes: Recommended Intakes for Individuals

RDA and Adequate Intake for Vitamins and Elements

Upper Limit for Vitamins and Elements

Electrolytes and Water

Meal Timing, Composition & Frequency

The number of meals you consume, the timing of those meals and the macro/micronutrient composition of each meal is largely a function of personal preference.

While it might be "optimal" to consume more than one meal per day and less than 5 meals per day, the simple truth is that any difference that directly results from such fine tuning is likely too small to notice even after years of training.

Thus, base your meal timing, composition and frequency on your subjective preference such as to optimize your sense of energy, performance, satiety, palatability, convenience, social/business life and sustainability.

Do not hesitate to very all three factors from day to day as circumstance dictates. In other words, do not become a slave to routine, with inflexibility compromising your quality of life.


Pre & Post Workout Nutrition

What (if anything) you consume before and after your workout does not play a significant direct role in the outcome of your diet, beyond personal preference.

Why? Because what matters in terms of direct impact on outcomes is total daily intake of all nutrients.

Thus, you should optimize based on how you respond to training in a fed or fasted state, and based on your hungry after exercise. In other words, use common sense.


Supplements

Supplements are just that, products that are intended to supplement deficiencies in your diet. If your diet is properly composed then there's no need or unique benefit to using supplements.

If your diet isn't properly composed and, thus, you have deficiencies, try to fix your diet to cure such deficiencies though the consumption of whole and minimally processed foods. If you can't fix your diet, then use the lowest dose supplement(a) needed to cure any remaining deficiencies.

[GreatArchitect]

Some people tend to work/feel better on a keto/high fat, low carb diet, while IF is more of a satiety/convenience tool to your diet i.e eating your daily calories within 8 or less hours a day.

Online calorie calculators tend to be very inaccurate so you could reduce calories even more and see what happens, but you are already eating very few calories. Dont stress if the scale isn't moving, it could simply be water weight or hormonal imbalance. It might be time to do a proper refeed and see how your body reacts.

[BroWhoLifts150]

Keto and IF wont do anything magical and make you lose fat, eating in a calorie deficit will. Make sure to track your intake of macronutrient and micronutrient for the day, stay in a cosistent calorie deficit and you will lose fat.

This. 1000 times this. Also, bcaa and carnitite wont help you with anything. Carnitine might give you an energy boost i suppose, but its not going to burn fat

[Maiaski]

Some people tend to work/feel better on a keto/high fat, low carb diet, while IF is more of a satiety/convenience tool to your diet i.e eating your daily calories within 8 or less hours a day.

Online calorie calculators tend to be very inaccurate so you could reduce calories even more and see what happens, but you are already eating very few calories. Dont stress if the scale isn't moving, it could simply be water weight or hormonal imbalance. It might be time to do a proper refeed and see how your body reacts.

Okay cool. I will give this a try and see what happens. It is a shame that the keto and IF doesn't have as much of an effect as i thought it would. I understand that eating in a calorie deficit will for sure.

I have been into training for a solid year and have been eating in a calorie deficit for just over a year...maybe a good refeed day is exactly what i need. I am scared to try that though...as i have had to ween myself off of the addiction of carbs. Yes, addiction to carbs lol!

How long would you recommend a refeed for? Would you recommend i incorporate this once a week? And how would you go about it?

Again very appreciative of your help...

Thanks again x

[Maiaski]

This. 1000 times this. Also, bcaa and carnitite wont help you with anything. Carnitine might give you an energy boost i suppose, but its not going to burn fat

I understand liquid l-carnitine will not help you lose fat, even though it says it will help suppress appetite...etc, but i take it as a boost as i get up at 5am everyday...but have been contemplating if a simple espresso shot will do a better job...

[Maiaski]

[B]Drop all the supplements. Drop "diets" based on nifty names. And replace them with knowledge.

I will have to read this carefully in my own time, but i know the basics to nutrition. However, thank you for your help as it is much appreciated

[Maiaski]

Some people tend to work/feel better on a keto/high fat, low carb diet, while IF is more of a satiety/convenience tool to your diet i.e eating your daily calories within 8 or less hours a day.

Online calorie calculators tend to be very inaccurate so you could reduce calories even more and see what happens, but you are already eating very few calories. Dont stress if the scale isn't moving, it could simply be water weight or hormonal imbalance. It might be time to do a proper refeed and see how your body reacts.

P.S - my body is very sensitive to water retention...THAT much I do know...lol! Any advice on how I can control this?

[GreatArchitect]

Try to have a refeed day once a week, drink enough water, reintroduce carbs if you want to and dont stress to much about scale weight, it doesn't always tell the truth about fat loss. You might feel bloated and even experiece that you gain a couple of lbs after a refeed day. This is usually water weight, but take into consideration that you'll hold onto more water the more carbs you eat. One step back, two steps forward. So if you begin to reintroduce carbs, give it atleast 1 - 2 weeks, as your weight will probably stay the same or even increase a little. But at the end of the day calories in vs calories out.

[Mrpb]

Keto and IF wont do anything magical and make you lose fat, eating in a calorie deficit will. Make sure to track your intake of macronutrient and micronutrient for the day, stay in a consistent calorie deficit and you will lose fat.

This ^ is good advice.

Some people feel & perform better on ketogenic diets, while other do better on a higher carb diet (or moderate carb).

Some people feel better while fasting or are better able to control their appetite, while others do better on several meals spread though out the day.

What makes you lose weight is consuming less calories than you expend, regardless of what your type of diet or eating window is.

[Maiaski]

Try to have a refeed day once a week, drink enough water, reintroduce carbs if you want to and dont stress to much about scale weight, it doesn't always tell the truth about fat loss. You might feel bloated and even experiece that you gain a couple of lbs after a refeed day. This is usually water weight, but take into consideration that you'll hold onto more water the more carbs you eat. One step back, two steps forward. So if you begin to reintroduce carbs, give it atleast 1 - 2 weeks, as your weight will probably stay the same or even increase a little. But at the end of the day calories in vs calories out.

Thank you so much for your advice. I will give this a go and see what happens. I will eat more veg and salads for carbs, but as for carb refeed days would you say that calories count on this day? And would you carb cycle? Sorry for the thousand questions...just need to get the ball rolling with this.

Agreed about the calories in vs calories out...

[Maiaski]

This ^ is good advice.

Some people feel & perform better on ketogenic diets, while other do better on a higher carb diet (or moderate carb).

Some people feel better while fasting or are better able to control their appetite, while others do better on several meals spread though out the day.

What makes you lose weight is consuming less calories than you expend, regardless of what your type of diet or eating window is.

I feel I am a bit of a hybrid and slightly hard to work out what my body works better with...although have been feeling fairly good without the loading of carbs and on this intermittent fasting it has worked a treat so far for the last two weeks in regards to the benefits of how good i am feeling...More focused at work and helping me control my apettite a little. I found eating smaller meals was making me even more hungry! I couldn't stop thinking about food and i was WAY too stressed about meeting my macro's and preparing meals all the time...

I don't think that helped, but yes thank you again.

[Mrpb]

I found eating smaller meals was making me even more hungry!

Sounds like you're the person that does well on IF.

If you want some information on how to decide between lower and higher carbs, Lyle McDonald has some good pointers in this article: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...-fat-loss.html

[driungis]

Eat two large meals (deficit to drop weight) Breakfast and dinner, sip some mct&coffe mid day. I've been cutting this way back in day 35lbs or so.