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  1. #1
    Registered User bsem2@mail.com's Avatar
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    can you gain lean muscle while losing fat simultaneously?

    I know you can't "gain weight" and "lose wight" simultaneously. It defies science.
    But can you gain lean muscle while losing fat simultaneously? Example- I'm 215, 15% bf. Can I drop down to 10% while also adding some lean muscle (maybe not losing weight, just redistributing it's composition)?
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  2. #2
    Lack of iron &or sleeping SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    It's possible doing keto runs, carb cycling or intermittent fasting with macro cycling

    However, it may be both quicker and simpler to just do it in two phases - bulk then cut or vica versa
    Daily Undulating Periodisation log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=163624691

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  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by bsem2@mail.com View Post
    I know you can't "gain weight" and "lose wight" simultaneously. It defies science.
    But can you gain lean muscle while losing fat simultaneously? Example- I'm 215, 15% bf. Can I drop down to 10% while also adding some lean muscle (maybe not losing weight, just redistributing it's composition)?
    straight up Noob gains it will be possible. But not for intemediate or advanced lifters.
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  4. #4
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    If you are just starting out it is definately possible, but if you've been doing this for a while, I'd suggest just doing it in two phases like the above poster stated.
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  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by VIsland View Post
    straight up Noob gains it will be possible. But not for intemediate or advanced lifters.
    WRONG. Possible for anyone, like mentioned above, it's just slower.

    Dave
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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by FaintReality View Post
    WRONG. Possible for anyone, like mentioned above, it's just slower.

    Dave
    agree 100% i am doing it right now and i am no newb, it is very slow though!
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  7. #7
    Registered User bsem2@mail.com's Avatar
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    Yeah. There seems to be two sides to this- those who believe it and those who don't. I've never encountered more controversy over a single topic in health than this.

    It's not that I don't believe phasing it in two parts works, I just want to adopt a healthy lifestyle and maintain it for a while with the same goal. Plus- i'm happy with my frame: i'd just like to bulk my chest some, and maybe pump the rest of my muscles a bit more. I'm not talking about gaining twenty pounds of muscle or anything.

    So- first off, what are keto runs, carb cycling or intermittent fasting with macro cycling...
    and second off, can someone explain what "slower but effective" means in this case?


    Thanks everyone. I'm so eager to get into this... I just really need guidance!!
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  8. #8
    Registered User hardtoforget's Avatar
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    Yes it can be done but it is tricky to do and most do not pull it off! You have to get everything so close to perfect that it is really hard.Plus you can not guarantee your body will play along.

    Normally when you restrict calories to what ever point you need to in order to make your body burn fat your thyroid,GH and Test levels will drop. This effects nutrient partioning in a very real way. You can normal gain muscle mass even with low Test levels but when thyroid hormones and GH drop it is almost impossible to add lean mass and the best you can do is hold onto lean mass!

    So the trick is adding things like Fengruk(sp), selenium, iodine, b vitamins,D3,Iron,Zink,Magneisum etc.......to try and keep thyroid and GH levels decent.....when you dieting it is hard to getthe body to burn fat initialy so when you first start the dieting I think it is important to keep the workouts brief but intense once the body starts to switch over to fat burning for fuel you can readjust your workouts and extend them out a little bit more. If you do too much in that time frame that the body is learning to burn more fat you end up over training too early into the dieting phase to do you any good.

    In fact a lot of people do not know this but during starvation or in this case lower then ideal caloric intake what hormones you have have a 10X or greater impact on gene transcription.....This is why dieting combined with large amounts of steroids has such a radically different effect then when taking the same steroids and eating normal. this is one of the reasons why pro-hormones combined with caloric deficient diet created so many lean, hard, cut people before they where banned. It kept anabolic hormones high when normally they would drop in the face of a low calorie diet.

    To be honest though I think most people would be happy to not lose any muscle mass when dieting. I know I would be happy to not lose any lean mass while dieting I would not setmyself up to fail by expecting to gain lean mass while reducing my fat mass.I would have to plan out every little detail and stick to it which I know I am bad at doing.


    If you keep to the American Diabetic Associations recommendations of 98 grams of carbs a day or less for a full grown male and keep protein intake of around .5 grams per kg it is almost a no brainer to have the fat come off with no loss of muscle mass if you workout. The more complex the carbs as in from leafy greens and vegetables the better because insulin does not spike nor does your blood sugar. The lower you take the carbs the faster the fat comes off. So stuff like bread, banana has,orange juice big no-no's for fat loss. A great low cal stomach filler i use often is V8 Vegtable juice between meals. I think it is somethinglike 50 calories loaded with fiber and nutrients...I add some onion powder, fresh ground peper and drink it if I get too hungry before my next proper meal! If I need to I add a protein shake mixed with water if I am low on protein that day but I prefer to eat real food when I can because it is more thermogenic then a meal replacment shake or bar and has more nutrients.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by hardtoforget View Post
    Yes it can be done but it is tricky to do and most do not pull it off! You have to get everything so close to perfect that it is really hard.Plus you can not guarantee your body will play along.

    Normally when you restrict calories to what ever point you need to in order to make your body burn fat your thyroid,GH and Test levels will drop. This effects nutrient partioning in a very real way. You can normal gain muscle mass even with low Test levels but when thyroid hormones and GH drop it is almost impossible to add lean mass and the best you can do is hold onto lean mass!

    So the trick is adding things like Fengruk(sp), selenium, iodine, b vitamins,D3,Iron,Zink,Magneisum etc.......to try and keep thyroid and GH levels decent.....when you dieting it is hard to getthe body to burn fat initialy so when you first start the dieting I think it is important to keep the workouts brief but intense once the body starts to switch over to fat burning for fuel you can readjust your workouts and extend them out a little bit more. If you do too much in that time frame that the body is learning to burn more fat you end up over training too early into the dieting phase to do you any good.

    In fact a lot of people do not know this but during starvation or in this case lower then ideal caloric intake what hormones you have have a 10X or greater impact on gene transcription.....This is why dieting combined with large amounts of steroids has such a radically different effect then when taking the same steroids and eating normal. this is one of the reasons why pro-hormones combined with caloric deficient diet created so many lean, hard, cut people before they where banned. It kept anabolic hormones high when normally they would drop in the face of a low calorie diet.

    To be honest though I think most people would be happy to not lose any muscle mass when dieting. I know I would be happy to not lose any lean mass while dieting I would not setmyself up to fail by expecting to gain lean mass while reducing my fat mass.I would have to plan out every little detail and stick to it which I know I am bad at doing.


    If you keep to the American Diabetic Associations recommendations of 98 grams of carbs a day or less for a full grown male and keep protein intake of around .5 grams per kg it is almost a no brainer to have the fat come off with no loss of muscle mass if you workout. The more complex the carbs as in from leafy greens and vegetables the better because insulin does not spike nor does your blood sugar. The lower you take the carbs the faster the fat comes off. So stuff like bread, banana has,orange juice big no-no's for fat loss. A great low cal stomach filler i use often is V8 Vegtable juice between meals. I think it is somethinglike 50 calories loaded with fiber and nutrients...I add some onion powder, fresh ground peper and drink it if I get too hungry before my next proper meal! If I need to I add a protein shake mixed with water if I am low on protein that day but I prefer to eat real food when I can because it is more thermogenic then a meal replacment shake or bar and has more nutrients.
    i wish i could have the part of my life back, i wasted reading that
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  10. #10
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    I think it's possible if done over a long period of time. I don't see why it couldn't be done.
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  11. #11
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    Funny how no one ever mentions that protein spikes insulin.
    GOMAD!
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  12. #12
    Registered User VIsland's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FaintReality View Post
    WRONG. Possible for anyone, like mentioned above, it's just slower.

    Dave
    To build muscle you need a surplus in calories. Those surplus calories? That's the fuel that new muscle is using to be created. If it doesn't exist the new muscle cannot exist.

    To lose fat you need a decrease in your maintenance calories. You see that defecit is where all those nasty little fat cells are searching for survival and therefore being subsequently destroyed (or shrunk) because they're without a fuel source.

    Unfortunately this is how your body works. Now if someone has naturally discovered a way around this, I and prolly 10 million others would like to know the secret, *please share.

    *also please include genuine photo(s) of bigfoot not photoshopped versions.
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  13. #13
    Lack of iron &or sleeping SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bsem2@mail.com View Post
    Yeah. There seems to be two sides to this- those who believe it and those who don't. I've never encountered more controversy over a single topic in health than this.

    It's not that I don't believe phasing it in two parts works, I just want to adopt a healthy lifestyle and maintain it for a while with the same goal. Plus- i'm happy with my frame: i'd just like to bulk my chest some, and maybe pump the rest of my muscles a bit more. I'm not talking about gaining twenty pounds of muscle or anything.

    So- first off, what are keto runs, carb cycling or intermittent fasting with macro cycling...
    and second off, can someone explain what "slower but effective" means in this case?


    Thanks everyone. I'm so eager to get into this... I just really need guidance!!
    If you want an easier 'lifestyle' protocol to follow, look at the link in my sig. Intermittent Fasting is easy to follow once you are accustomed to it and makes it easy to control your appetite.

    There are various ways of using it but it sounds like your would need to be in surplus with higher carbs on workout days and defecit with lower carbs on non workout days.
    Daily Undulating Periodisation log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=163624691

    Mesocycle periodised by volume: Ramp->[Sustain]->Overreach->Taper->Test-> (reset)
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  14. #14
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    Personally, I eat 4 times daily, and I generally split my calorie intake among the meals so that I reach my calorie goal. I believe that, at least for beginners, slight caloric deficit + consistent workouts + focus on progression will build muscle just fine, and you will lose modest amounts of bodyfat.
    --- Nick ---
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  15. #15
    Registered User bsem2@mail.com's Avatar
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    Please explain this...

    I'm not a beginner, so I'm not banking on any beginner's magic on this one...

    But explain this to me. Let's say I'm 215, 15% bf and consume 2500 calories a day... Then let's say I changed my exercise routine some (just to shock the body... but not necessarily to burn any more calories than I had before), and altered my diet's contents (but not calories)... maybe cutting out alcohol, cutting down carbs, increasing to even higher amounts of protein.

    In other words, I'm maintaining 2500 calories a day, and burning the same as before, but just changing my exercise routine and cleaning my diet (by redistributing calories to contain more fiber/protein). What impact would that have? Could I not expect to gain muscle and lose fat then?
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    To sum up. It is most definately possible; that way you can keep abs while gaining muscle, but as you get to be a more advanced lifter progress will be INCREDIBLY slow. I have gone from 150 lbs to 206 without going over 10ish% bf... definately think it would have taken half the time with bulking and cutting.
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    Originally Posted by bsem2@mail.com View Post
    I'm not a beginner, so I'm not banking on any beginner's magic on this one...

    But explain this to me. Let's say I'm 215, 15% bf and consume 2500 calories a day... Then let's say I changed my exercise routine some (just to shock the body... but not necessarily to burn any more calories than I had before), and altered my diet's contents (but not calories)... maybe cutting out alcohol, cutting down carbs, increasing to even higher amounts of protein.

    In other words, I'm maintaining 2500 calories a day, and burning the same as before, but just changing my exercise routine and cleaning my diet (by redistributing calories to contain more fiber/protein). What impact would that have? Could I not expect to gain muscle and lose fat then?
    Of course that will work. Anyone that argues is just being a pain. The only thing is if your goal was purely too gain as much muscle mass as possible this would not be your fastest way to say 225 with 10% bf
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  18. #18
    Registered User bsem2@mail.com's Avatar
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    I dig... but let's say I wanted to redistribute my 215 so it was more lean muscle and lower body fat. Not gain or lose weight. Is that do-able?
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  19. #19
    Lack of iron &or sleeping SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bsem2@mail.com View Post
    I'm not a beginner, so I'm not banking on any beginner's magic on this one...

    But explain this to me. Let's say I'm 215, 15% bf and consume 2500 calories a day... Then let's say I changed my exercise routine some (just to shock the body... but not necessarily to burn any more calories than I had before), and altered my diet's contents (but not calories)... maybe cutting out alcohol, cutting down carbs, increasing to even higher amounts of protein.

    In other words, I'm maintaining 2500 calories a day, and burning the same as before, but just changing my exercise routine and cleaning my diet (by redistributing calories to contain more fiber/protein). What impact would that have? Could I not expect to gain muscle and lose fat then?
    I would say you are making a mistake. If you are 15%, you will be unlikely to recomp further using this isocaloric method. I know from bitter experience - I spent about a year thinking I was 'recomping' when actually nothing was happening.

    If you are insistent on recomping, you must have some kind of calorie/carb cycling.

    Be honest with yourself, if you are not getting stronger and/or lighter, it is NOT working.
    Daily Undulating Periodisation log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=163624691

    Mesocycle periodised by volume: Ramp->[Sustain]->Overreach->Taper->Test-> (reset)
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