Cost No Object Machines and Free Weights, the Best of the Best

[mroc17]

By the way, I wonder what differences if any there are from just getting it from REFLEX, the makers of Sorinex Equipment. (Sorinex used to be made by williams strength up until 2008 I believe)

Check this out:

http://www.reflexfitness.com/Reflex%20Page%205.html

Not sure if any details are different other than the name. Definitely worth checking out the cost differences, that is on my to do list.

I will also check that out. It's a bad week for ordering fitness equipment, everyone is at some show in FL or Vegas. Pretty sure I'll buy this. I will find out next week.

Yeah, I was just curious. I got rid of my 45 when I got my GHD. You know, I'm actually pretty interested in that Cybex Bravo trainer. I've used the Life Fitness equivalent, but not this. I really liked that LF machine...and I think I would much prefer buying that type of piece for my bro that than the pec fly. This way he'd have this machine and a full high/low pulley on my cable crossover. I honestly love functional trainers so I'm going to look into these. Anyone know the price on the Bravo unit? Or ANY of the top ones like the LF or Free Motion?

So, I guess at this point I'm looking to add and already ordered Hammer MTS Ab, Pendulum hip press/5way neck with Sorinex donkey calf and Cybex Bravo/Func. trainer likely being ordered next week. I like these machines and I think it will be enough for him.

[RandyMcdonald]

I will also check that out. It's a bad week for ordering fitness equipment, everyone is at some show in FL or Vegas. Pretty sure I'll buy this. I will find out next week.

Yeah, I was just curious. I got rid of my 45 when I got my GHD. You know, I'm actually pretty interested in that Cybex Bravo trainer. I've used the Life Fitness equivalent, but not this. I really liked that LF machine...and I think I would much prefer buying that type of piece for my bro that than the pec fly. This way he'd have this machine and a full high/low pulley on my cable crossover. I honestly love functional trainers so I'm going to look into these. Anyone know the price on the Bravo unit? Or ANY of the top ones like the LF or Free Motion?

So, I guess at this point I'm looking to add and already ordered Hammer MTS Ab, Pendulum hip press/5way neck with Sorinex donkey calf and Cybex Bravo/Func. trainer likely being ordered next week. I like these machines and I think it will be enough for him.

I'm looking at these as well. Price is on the high end here I think. Let me know if you find a better price? http://www.allamericanfitness.com/Cybex-Bravo.html

[mroc17]

I'm looking at these as well. Price is on the high end here I think. Let me know if you find a better price? http://www.allamericanfitness.com/Cybex-Bravo.html

You know, I don't know...I've seen 3.4k to 7k listed online. IMO, those higher end prices are a bit ridiculous. I'm just going to call Cybex on Monday so I will let you know what I find out from them. I'm not sure where you purchase it from besides them and what advantages would that offer? I've a way of giving in to equipment anyways.

[rpark]

I'm looking at these as well. Price is on the high end here I think. Let me know if you find a better price? http://www.allamericanfitness.com/Cybex-Bravo.html

As far as functional trainers, I prefer the free motion style as opposed to the cybex unit. Main reason is that the cybex doesn't appear to let you get wide enough to do chest cable cross overs. It may or may not be a better unit, but I've always thought the functional trainer should be fully functional. The free motion unit has arms capable of going very wide, so it works perfectly.

[HealthNutMD]

As far as functional trainers, I prefer the free motion style as opposed to the cybex unit. Main reason is that the cybex doesn't appear to let you get wide enough to do chest cable cross overs. It may or may not be a better unit, but I've always thought the functional trainer should be fully functional. The free motion unit has arms capable of going very wide, so it works perfectly.

If you can get a functional trainer to replace a cable crossover, that is really a nice advantage, which I'm assuming the Free Motion does. I don't know if the Cybex goes wide enough for that or not... I'm going to have to go downstairs at work and visit the hospital basement gym... its basically all bodymasters equipment and that new Cybex Bravo top of the line unit.

I forget, but are the weight stacks adequate on these units?

[HealthNutMD]

This is a nice abs 'bench' from Strength Inc.

3" x 3" square tubing. Large foam Pads. Rubber coated side mounting tubes. Handles for entry and exit. Revision of the Old Body Master Inverted Sit Up. Designed for the Hard Core Sit Up user.

http://www.strengthequipment.net/freeweight.html

But it would also be nice just to have this as an attachment for your rack (similar to the Atlantis Fitness attachment), so I'm looking into this with Hans.

[Skyaura]

As far as functional trainers, I prefer the free motion style as opposed to the cybex unit. Main reason is that the cybex doesn't appear to let you get wide enough to do chest cable cross overs. It may or may not be a better unit, but I've always thought the functional trainer should be fully functional. The free motion unit has arms capable of going very wide, so it works perfectly.

rpark,

The adjustable pulleys on the Bravo can be locked into place. For pulling motions, you can lock the pulleys in a more narrow position for pulling exercises or in a wide position for other exercises. The stabilization pad and the adjustable pulley system are two of the main advantages that the Bravo has over other systems. The Free Motion FT is a very good unit though.

[rpark]

I forget, but are the weight stacks adequate on these units?

Both the Cybex and Free Motion have similar weight characteristics. Cybex has 85 lbs stacks, Free motion 80 lbs. They both come in 2:1 weight ratios with an optional 3:1 so effectively the base units max you out at 170 / 160 per side for 2:1 and 255/240 for 3:1. I think the weight stack has been more than adequate for nearly every exercise except lat pull downs (when used properly). Now I have rigged up both arms at the same time (not sure this is recommended or not, but it works, pull them close enough to attach to each other) with an extra carabinger for lat pull downs to compensate for the light stacks. The only other exercise that I max out on with the stack is triceps pushdowns, but it's actually right at my max weight for 10-15 reps (but my last gym maxed their tricep pushdown/cable crossover machines to 150 lb weight stacks too, so that's not a huge deal. While not 'necessary', I would strongly suggest trying to get the 3:1 weight stacks, for obvious reasons.

I'm sure the Cybex unit is a nice unit as well and is capable of everything the free motion does, except, it just doesn't appear to go wide enough to do cable crossovers (one of my favorite chest finishing exercises). Again, this is just my personal preference of a functional trainer, your mileage may vary.

For comparison purposes, I just measured my free motion arms, at their widest point the center of handle is approx 85" apart on cable crossovers. I can still effectively change the width down to 77" and still get a decent crossover. Cybex lists their unit as 54" wide. I did adjust mine down to 48" & 56" wide and I suppose the crossover could work, but it doesn't give me the same stretch (more like bent arm dumbbell flys vs straight arm). Like I said, maybe in person the unit could work the same way, but for me I'd lean towards the top end Free Motion (they are both in the same price range at about $6k-7k).

[ndmike99]

This is a nice abs 'bench' from Strength Inc.

3" x 3" square tubing. Large foam Pads. Rubber coated side mounting tubes. Handles for entry and exit. Revision of the Old Body Master Inverted Sit Up. Designed for the Hard Core Sit Up user.

But it would also be nice just to have this as an attachment for your rack (similar to the Atlantis Fitness attachment), so I'm looking into this with Hans.

Does Nebula have any attachments like these for their racks:

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/0320.html

I am not sure why more commercial companies do not do this. The only option I have found are the Sorinex benches.

[deadwoodgregg]

Does Nebula have any attachments like these for their racks:



I am not sure why more commercial companies do not do this. The only option I have found are the Sorinex benches.

Now that is a good idea. Hans should offer those.

[HealthNutMD]

Both the Cybex and Free Motion have similar weight characteristics. Cybex has 85 lbs stacks, Free motion 80 lbs. They both come in 2:1 weight ratios with an optional 3:1 so effectively the base units max you out at 170 / 160 per side for 2:1 and 255/240 for 3:1. I think the weight stack has been more than adequate for nearly every exercise except lat pull downs (when used properly). Now I have rigged up both arms at the same time (not sure this is recommended or not, but it works, pull them close enough to attach to each other) with an extra carabinger for lat pull downs to compensate for the light stacks. The only other exercise that I max out on with the stack is triceps pushdowns, but it's actually right at my max weight for 10-15 reps (but my last gym maxed their tricep pushdown/cable crossover machines to 150 lb weight stacks too, so that's not a huge deal. While not 'necessary', I would strongly suggest trying to get the 3:1 weight stacks, for obvious reasons.

I'm sure the Cybex unit is a nice unit as well and is capable of everything the free motion does, except, it just doesn't appear to go wide enough to do cable crossovers (one of my favorite chest finishing exercises). Again, this is just my personal preference of a functional trainer, your mileage may vary.

For comparison purposes, I just measured my free motion arms, at their widest point the center of handle is approx 85" apart on cable crossovers. I can still effectively change the width down to 77" and still get a decent crossover. Cybex lists their unit as 54" wide. I did adjust mine down to 48" & 56" wide and I suppose the crossover could work, but it doesn't give me the same stretch (more like bent arm dumbbell flys vs straight arm). Like I said, maybe in person the unit could work the same way, but for me I'd lean towards the top end Free Motion (they are both in the same price range at about $6k-7k).

Great post. Is it safe to say that a functional trainer completey replaces the need to have a cable crossover assuming the width is adequate? Any reason to have a cable crossover as well? Sounds like 3:1 is the way to go. I wonder why they do not make that standard; I cannot think of any disadvantage, other than the ego of the user (which is apprarently why many of the newer machines allow you to throw the weight stacks around (and are insufficient)).

Great comparison on the two units, that really helps me get an idea of what is going on. Range of motion and 'pre-stretch' makes or breaks my purchase decisions on machines. I want to call Cybex and discuss this limitation and see what they say about it.

[HealthNutMD]

Does Nebula have any attachments like these for their racks:

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/0320.html

I am not sure why more commercial companies do not do this. The only option I have found are the Sorinex benches.

Agreed. I fired that off to Hans. That would be a very useful attachment for sure. I'm sure Hans can make it 150 lb dumbell compatable. would be great to start out with the dumbells in that postion vs having to wrench them off the floor, especially 110-150 lbs

[ndmike99]

Agreed. I fired that off to Hans. That would be a very useful attachment for sure. I'm sure Hans can make it 150 lb dumbell compatable. would be great to start out with the dumbells in that postion vs having to wrench them off the floor, especially 110-150 lbs

Sorinex uses a stabilizer bar that connects both trays once they are in place. That may be useful and help improve the overall strength.

[GoinGrey]

Back:
TOP-TIER:
Rogers Athletic Pendulum Combo Lat Pulldown
Hammer Strength Iso lateral MID ROW, with modified chest pad.
Atlantis D-123 pulldown, also comes with 310 lb stack (best cable pulldown on the market, hydraulic seat, etc...)
Atlantis D-132 cable High Row (310 lb weight stack is standard on this).
Dual stirrup Hampton cable attachment or similar chain with Black Iron Strength stirrup handle upgrades.
Strive Plate loaded and selectorised Low back extension with seatbelt.
Legend Reverse hyperextension with curved pendulum and tiltable top vs. Legend older model tiltable with straight pendulum

Runner -ups:
Rogers Athletic Pendulum Row
Hammer Strength High Row
Hammer Strength Low Row
Hammer Strength Pulldown
Atlantis plate loaded Pulldown



Chris,

Where would the Strive diverging pull-down fall on your list? Runner-up?

[HealthNutMD]

Back:
TOP-TIER:
Rogers Athletic Pendulum Combo Lat Pulldown
Hammer Strength Iso lateral MID ROW, with modified chest pad.
Atlantis D-123 pulldown, also comes with 310 lb stack (best cable pulldown on the market, hydraulic seat, etc...)
Atlantis D-132 cable High Row (310 lb weight stack is standard on this).
Dual stirrup Hampton cable attachment or similar chain with Black Iron Strength stirrup handle upgrades.
Strive Plate loaded and selectorised Low back extension with seatbelt.
Legend Reverse hyperextension with curved pendulum and tiltable top vs. Legend older model tiltable with straight pendulum

Runner -ups:
Rogers Athletic Pendulum Row
Hammer Strength High Row
Hammer Strength Low Row
Hammer Strength Pulldown
Atlantis plate loaded Pulldown



Chris,

Where would the Strive diverging pull-down fall on your list? Runner-up?

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. It should be in the runner-up list. I think it is a piece I'd need to spend a few weeks with to see exactly how much I like it.

[HealthNutMD]

Sorinex uses a stabilizer bar that connects both trays once they are in place. That may be useful and help improve the overall strength.

Do you have a link on sorinex website?

[ndmike99]

Do you have a link on sorinex website?

http://store.sorinex.com/Dumbbell_Sp..._p/dbsdi-2.htm

I actually own that bench, so I can get you any pictures you would need.

[HealthNutMD]

http://store.sorinex.com/Dumbbell_Sp..._p/dbsdi-2.htm

I actually own that bench, so I can get you any pictures you would need.

That bench is great and on my wishlist for a future place. I wonder if they have an incline DB autospot as well. However, I thought you were talking about a rack mounted DB tray. Yours seem to require that bench and are auotspot intead of fixed rack mounted.


They do make those dumbell stands though. They aren't autospot, but maybe they could be useful:









Either way, if you could make something rack mounted, you could adjust the height using the rack holes...

and you wouldn't need another bench or the above stands....

[mroc17]

I'm looking at these as well. Price is on the high end here I think. Let me know if you find a better price? http://www.allamericanfitness.com/Cybex-Bravo.html

I received a quote from Cybex. The machine itself is discounted to about $5100, but after taxes, shipping and install fees...I'm at about $6200-$6500 depending if I want a chin up bar on it. I'm going to see if they'll knock it down a little. I don't know if taxes are an issue for you, but I live in NY for reference. Lead time is actually only about 2 weeks so...not bad. I will probably order one. I'll let you know.

[ndmike99]

That bench is great and on my wishlist for a future place. I wonder if they have an incline DB autospot as well. However, I thought you were talking about a rack mounted DB tray. Yours seem to require that bench and are auotspot intead of fixed rack mounted.

I was referring to a rack mounted option. The bench is nice, but a rack mounted option would be preferable. I am surprised they do not make one. Here is their adjustable bench version:

http://store.sorinex.com/Auto_Spot_M...e_p/as0-90.htm

You can use the dumbbell option in most of their benches, but that would require several benches. A rack mounted one like the NY Barbell Version is what I am looking for from a commercial quality company.

[HealthNutMD]

Yes, I brought that piece up in this thread back on 4-21-2010. I keep coming back to that piece. It really seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck. Not only that, it is a really unique piece. Nobody really said much other than it makes no sense if you already have a power rack.

What do you think? I like the openness of it compared to a rack. It has a great spotters stand. It is also autospot, and replaces 3 seperate autospot benches. I'm surprised more people did not show interest on this piece in this thread... what do you think?

Any thoughts on this piece? I guess since I already have an Elite FTS Collegiate 0-90 bench and Elite FTS Collegiate power rack coming. Also have the Hurricane coming. Then I suppose it might be wastefull to get this:

http://store.sorinex.com/PhotoGaller...tCode=AS0%2D90


Seems really nice, but suppose things would start getting redundant. Might be convenient though.

Looks like essentially a flat, Incline, and shoulder station all in one: but what makes it cool is it seems to be every bit as good as 3 dedicated stations for each of those 3?

[ndmike99]

Yes, I brought that piece up in this thread back on 4-21-2010. I keep coming back to that piece. It really seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck. Not only that, it is a really unique piece. Nobody really said much other than it makes no sense if you already have a power rack.

What do you think? I like the openness of it compared to a rack. It has a great spotters stand. It is also autospot, and replaces 3 seperate autospot benches. I'm surprised more people did not show interest on this piece in this thread... what do you think?

It is a good concept, but I have never seen an adjustable bench that I really liked. It is too difficult to get a good feel on all the different lifts with just one bench. I like a full pad for bench, I prefer foot rests for incline, and there is no way to do decline. With a rack and a few cheap benches and I can get the exact set up I want and not have to sacrifice anything. The only sacrifice I am making now is not having dumbbell trays. I have often considered grabbing a legend half rack or even a cheap body solid 3x3 and using it just with the NY Barbell Dumbbell Trays. I tried power hooks, but never really got the feel for them.

They sell auto spot racks as well:

http://store.sorinex.com/Auto_Spot_P...k_p/aspr-1.htm

[HealthNutMD]

It is a good concept, but I have never seen an adjustable bench that I really liked. It is too difficult to get a good feel on all the different lifts with just one bench. I like a full pad for bench, I prefer foot rests for incline, and there is no way to do decline. With a rack and a few cheap benches and I can get the exact set up I want and not have to sacrifice anything. The only sacrifice I am making now is not having dumbbell trays. I have often considered grabbing a legend half rack or even a cheap body solid 3x3 and using it just with the NY Barbell Dumbbell Trays. I tried power hooks, but never really got the feel for them.

I think Hans will make them. Heck we can get a few orders placed today without lifting a finger. I think its one of those accessories you build, and them demand follows.

To make sure: the main purpose of dumbell holders is to hold the dumbell in a postion so that you can focus your energy on the lift itself, and not have to spend half your enegy lifting them from the ground and compressing your legs... then jerking them into postion (which is can be a pain with 100+ dumbells). Is this the reason?

They sell auto spot racks as well:

http://store.sorinex.com/Auto_Spot_P...k_p/aspr-1.htm

Yes, I saw that in the Berkeley video as well. Not sure how useful that is. If you put some dumbell holders on the front of that hinged portion of the rack, you could get dumbbell autospot as well. Is that rack autspot good for declines, flat, inclines? I'm not sure what to make of the rack autospot. Can it at all be a poor mans monolift in the sense it would go back one step with you?

[HealthNutMD]

I also want to demo some various standing leg curl units. I like variety and I absolutely love doing leg curls and hamstrings. I'd say seated leg curls are probably my least favorite type of leg curl, although I don't mind doing them. A while back I demoed the Flex Fitness Ham tractor (highly rated seated leg curl), but I felt that the weight stack was insufficient.


There are a bunch of standing leg curls to evaluate. The Icarian is no longer made, but can be easily found used and it is a great (A) machine.

I'd be curious to compare it to the Legend standing leg curl and the Atlantis standing Leg curl:







http://www.atlantis-fit.com/index.ph...emart&Itemid=2

Width : 36”(91 cm)
Height : 54”(137 cm)
Length : 47”(119 cm)
Weight : 337 lb (153 kg)
Weight Stack : 130 lb (59 kg)

Exercises legs independently for balanced results.
Raised footplate design provides users with ample clearance during exercise.
Lightened top plate reduces starting resistance.
Self-aligning roller pad adapts to short and tall users without manual adjustment

[ndmike99]

To make sure: the main purpose of dumbell holders is to hold the dumbell in a postion so that you can focus your energy on the lift itself, and not have to spend half your enegy lifting them from the ground and compressing your legs... then jerking them into postion (which is can be a pain with 100+ dumbells). Is this the reason?

Correct

[ndmike99]

Yes, I saw that in the Berkeley video as well. Not sure how useful that is. If you put some dumbell holders on the front of that hinged portion of the rack, you could get dumbbell autospot as well. Is that rack autspot good for declines, flat, inclines? I'm not sure what to make of the rack autospot. Can it at all be a poor mans monolift in the sense it would go back one step with you?

I thought of that as well. I think the trays would have to have a decent sized lip so the dumbbells would not roll forward. As for the auto spot I think it would be useful for all of the lifts mentioned and it can work like a poor mans mono lift. It would allow you to walk out with it, but you would need to walk it back. If they came up with spotter arms that could extend out in front of it like a half rack you could always leave the weight on the arms when done.

The auto spot could also be added on the back of a power rack so you would have the option of using a normal rack towards the front and auto spot on the back if you used a walk through design.

[HealthNutMD]

I thought of that as well. I think the trays would have to have a decent sized lip so the dumbbells would not roll forward. As for the auto spot I think it would be useful for all of the lifts mentioned and it can work like a poor mans mono lift. It would allow you to walk out with it, but you would need to walk it back. If they came up with spotter arms that could extend out in front of it like a half rack you could always leave the weight on the arms when done.

The auto spot could also be added on the back of a power rack so you would have the option of using a normal rack towards the front and auto spot on the back if you used a walk through design.

Lots of great ideas there... They really should be in all new products and racks.

[HealthNutMD]

I was thinking again about what piece I would be least likely to give up. For me it would be the Star Trac Prone leg curl. There is no close second, not even remotely. As much as I love the Star Trac kneeling leg curl (A+), at least I know I could live with the Cybex kneeling leg curl (A). There just simply isn't a prone leg curl with this outstanding pad configuration, outstanding grip configuration/position, range of motion (pre-stretch), more than adequate weight stack (or at least with the pulley ratio), biomechanics, etc... I love leg curls, and there is no close second IMO.











Interestingly, it seems within the last year they made some revisions to the frame and some parts changes, but I doubt it significantly affected the biomechanics. I'll have to call to find out more.

[Maluket]

On the Reflex Fitness site...

http://www.reflexfitness.com/Reflex%20Page%205.html

...you can see that their seated calf raise has an extra "starting position". I think that would be more the "whoops, I failed on this rep" catch. How is everyone handling failure on seated calf raises? I personally stuck a car jack stand right in front of the machine, just below the bottom of my range of motion. If I fail, I just set it down on the car jack. The trouble then is getting it back up for the next set. I can't squeeze back under. I generally have to pull off a few plates before I can lift it back up with my hands, wasting time and energy that I could have been spending on exercising.

This is not an elegant or convenient solution. So for me, an ideal seated calf raise would have an integrated way of handling failure, and then an easy way to get the weight back up. Horizontal weight horns might accomplish the failure part, but I don't want the weight banging on the ground, or particularly on the frame (as they would on my machine). I suppose they could stick rubber bumb stops on the frame and hit those. But it seems like an extra catch or two would handle failure more elegantly. As far as racking it again after failure, I'd think add a good handle somewhere on the long arm, ideally out at the end for leverage, though that would take more space in a room. Or, if there were three catches, and one was around the middle of the range of motion, I could probably hit the middle one 90% of the time even when failing, at which point I could just wait and use my calves to get it back up from there. And I suppose if it were at the bottom, I could raise the leg pads up, lift it to the middle, put them back in position, and lift it the rest of the way. At that point, though, a handle might be a more convenient alternative.

I probably won't buy anything soon, but I'm not entirely satisfied with my cheapo seated calf, so I'm probably going to eventually be in the market, and I'd want to do it right, whether that's customizing something like the Sorinex or having Strength, Inc. build me something.

Thoughts?

[HealthNutMD]

On the Reflex Fitness site...

http://www.reflexfitness.com/Reflex%20Page%205.html

...you can see that their seated calf raise has an extra "starting position". I think that would be more the "whoops, I failed on this rep" catch. How is everyone handling failure on seated calf raises?

.... I'm probably going to eventually be in the market, and I'd want to do it right, whether that's customizing something like the Sorinex or having Strength, Inc. build me something.

Thoughts?

Well, Reflex dos build the Sorinex stuff, but I suppose as part of the deal with Sorinex, they cannot sell Sorinex 'custom' designs. Although I cannot see any significant difference between the Donkey calf on the Reflex and the Sorinex version.

Strength Inc stuff often seems often 'blocky' to me. The Sorinex seated calf is such a homerun, I'd be hard pressed to reccomend anything else. I think it is worth giving Reflex a call and see if they can make you something very close to the Sorinex model (wink wink), but with another catch lower in postion like their model. I'm doing calves tonight, so I'll go to failure on the Sorinex and see what happens. I know what you are talking about, but it hasn't been an issue recently... maybe I just haven't gone to complete failure recently. Let me do that tonight.