Would supplementing with beta-alanine, citrulline, and arginine produce an NO effect?

[BringnIt]

It is my belief that the observed differences in the 1RM bench press were directly related to elevated intramuscular PCr concentrations in the AAKG vs. placebo group. Had these individuals been supplementing creatine, I strongly feel that the results would have been much less impressive for the AAKG group.



AAKG supplementation did not promote statistically significant changes in fat-free mass, muscular endurance,or aerobic capacity. These findings indicate that, although there was evidence of greater gains in strength and anaerobic power, the improved performance capacity did not promote muscle hypertrophy or improve body composition results during training. These findings do not support contentions that AAKG promotes lean tissue accretion during resistance training. However, it is possible that the sample and/or use of well-trained resistance-trained subjects who are more resistant to gains in muscle mass during training as opposed to untrained subjects may have influenced the results.

We are aware of one other study that used resistance-trained men as subjects that investigated the effects of arginine on body composition and muscle function. Walberg-Rankin et al. [38] gave male weight trainers who were consuming a hypocaloric diet approximately 8 g of arginine daily for 10 d. The investigators concluded that arginine supplementation had no influence on fat or lean tissue loss, muscle function (as determined by biceps and quadriceps isokinetic testing), or overall growth hormone status. Results of the present study support these findings because 8 wk of AAKG supplementation did not significantly affect body composition, lower body muscle function as measured by quadriceps isokinetic testing, or anabolic hormonal profiles.

The reason that AAKG increased peak power is unclear. Because arginine is one of three amino acids used in the synthesis of creatine [41] and low-dose creatine supplementation (e.g., 3 g/d for 4 wk) has been shown to increase muscle phosphocreatine concentrations [42], 6 g/d of L-arginine supplementation may have influenced phosphocreatine availability and thus anaerobic power indices [43,44].

I wonder how much, if any, benefit is elicited from the alpha ketoglutarate as an ergogenic.

[NO HYPE]

I wonder how much, if any, benefit is elicited from the alpha ketoglutarate as an ergogenic.

Well I am not sure to what degree AKG acts as an ergogenic aid however, it is a vital intracellular component of myogenic growth and repair, enhances protein synthesis, and is an important nitrogen transporter.

[JBerto]

I wonder how much, if any, benefit is elicited from the alpha ketoglutarate as an ergogenic.

AAKG seems to be another waste:

http://www.ergo-log.com/aakg.html
http://bearspace.baylor.edu/Rodney_B...cokinetics.pdf

[BringnIt]

AAKG seems to be another waste:

http://www.ergo-log.com/aakg.html
http://bearspace.baylor.edu/Rodney_B...cokinetics.pdf

Not sure how you came to that conclusion based off the two referenced studies. While it is a waste for what it's typically marketed for (enhanced recovery, NO production), if anything those links show more promise for AAKG supplementation than what is typically believed. An increase in maximal strength in the long run, coupled with hypertrophy based training and proper nutrition and supplementation would likely elicit better body composition improvements.

Worst case scenario is better performance in the gym, based on the two references you provided.

Again, it seems more likely that the alpha ketoglutarate component is responsible for the benefits demonstrated.

[NO HYPE]

http://bearspace.baylor.edu/Rodney_Bowden/www/pharmacokinetics.pdf

...

Not sure how you came to that conclusion based off the two referenced studies. While it is a waste for what it's typically marketed for (enhanced recovery, NO production), if anything those links show more promise for AAKG supplementation than what is typically believed. An increase in maximal strength in the long run, coupled with hypertrophy based training and proper nutrition and supplementation would likely elicit better body composition improvements. Again, it seems more likely that the alpha ketoglutarate component is responsible for the benefits demonstrated.

It is my belief that the observed differences in the 1RM bench press were directly related to elevated intramuscular PCr concentrations in the AAKG vs. placebo group. Had these individuals been supplementing creatine, I strongly feel that the results would have been much less impressive for the AAKG group.

The reason that AAKG increased peak power is unclear. Because arginine is one of three amino acids used in the synthesis of creatine [41] and low-dose creatine supplementation (e.g., 3 g/d for 4 wk) has been shown to increase muscle phosphocreatine concentrations [42], 6 g/d of L-arginine supplementation may have influenced phosphocreatine availability and thus anaerobic power indices [43,44].

[BringnIt]

...

And that is definitely a possibility.

However, if that were the case, one would think that if endogenous production of creatine is enhanced by arginine, there would be evidence for the same benefit from regular arginine hcl. To my knowledge, there is none.

A lot of it would depend on how AAKG elicits the benefit in strength increases. If it is as you and others have theorized, and it does increase endogenous creatine production, then you are correct. If it is in fact some benefit from the Krebs cycle intermediate AKG, then there is a potential use for AKG-based supplements (not limited to or even ideally AAKG).

If you don't ascribe to the theory that it's from AKG, that's fine, and for what it's worth I don't particularly advocate AAKG because I've never noticed anything from it. But the take home from the two links referenced simply CANNOT BE that AAKG is worthless. At best it needs more research to figure out the MOA involved.

EDIT: Just noticed I worded that a little poorly. Two links, same study, just one is ergo-log's interpretation.

[BringnIt]

And that is definitely a possibility.

However, if that were the case, one would think that if endogenous production of creatine is enhanced by arginine, there would be evidence for the same benefit from regular arginine hcl. To my knowledge, there is none.

A lot of it would depend on how AAKG elicits the benefit in strength increases. If it is as you and others have theorized, and it does increase endogenous creatine production, then you are correct. If it is in fact some benefit from the Krebs cycle intermediate AKG, then there is a potential use for AKG-based supplements (not limited to or even ideally AAKG).

If you don't ascribe to the theory that it's from AKG, that's fine, and for what it's worth I don't particularly advocate AAKG because I've never noticed anything from it. But the take home from the two links referenced simply CANNOT BE that AAKG is worthless. At best it needs more research to figure out the MOA involved.

EDIT: Just noticed I worded that a little poorly. Two links, same study, just one is ergo-log's interpretation.

Just to clarify, because I don't want my words to be misinterpreted, I am simply saying that you cannot use the Baylor study as evidence AGAINST AAKG. It also is not a ringing endorsement of AAKG, and a research study analyzing whether additional benefits are provided with the addition of AAKG to creatine would be the only definitive way to answer the question.

[0321arc]

First off I never disrespected you.

Second off, you can't share a PUBLISHED STUDY showing a SYNERGISTIC benefit beyond the affects of the three substances alone for these three ingredients because one does not exist.

Furthermore, speaking of asking sebastian and talking about presurge unleashed...there's a reason it DOESN'T contain arginine bro. And it's not because arginine is just too ****ing awesome to put in the product.

Citrulline and Beta Alanine obviously have benefits, and I never questioned that, you simply made a gross misrepresentation of the word synergy, which irritates the hell out of me about this industry.

additive affects: 2 + 2 = 4
synergistic affects: 2 + 2 = 5

You are one of those know-it-all, punk-bitches who has never learned the lesson. You are just lazy and ignorant, and want to argue with anyone who challenges your already low-form, and regurgitated ideas on bodybuilding. Look up the information for yourself, empower yourself with knowledge, and then actually refute the claim properly. You have obviously evolved the playground antics (I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I BS) that might have worked well for you when you were a kid, and since turned that purile philosophy into your now adult form of argumentation and debate. Grow the **** up. You must have grown up never learning the lesson, that is why you are a punk-bitch, you probably always talked your way out of getting your ass beat for talking to people the way you do. Or, you always slimed your way out of it by hiding behind someone else. You lack any real knowledge yourself, that is why you demand others prove themselves first...**** your bluff.

[Xyas]

While we're posting stuff about arginine, another study I found concerning its use in CAD patients.

Oral L-arginine in patients with coronary artery disease on medical management.
Blum A, Hathaway L, Mincemoyer R, Schenke WH, Kirby M, Csako G, Waclawiw MA, Panza JA, Cannon RO 3rd.
Source
Cardiology, National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892-1650, USA.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Vascular nitric oxide (NO) bioavailability is reduced in patients with coronary artery disease (CAD). We investigated whether oral L-arginine, the substrate for NO synthesis, improves homeostatic functions of the vascular endothelium in patients maintained on appropriate medical therapy and thus might be useful as adjunctive therapy.
METHODS AND RESULTS:
Thirty CAD patients (29 men; age, 67+/-8 years) on appropriate medical management were randomly assigned to L-arginine (9 g) or placebo daily for 1 month, with crossover to the alternate therapy after 1 month off therapy, in a double-blind study. Nitrogen oxides in serum (as an index of endothelial NO release), flow-mediated brachial artery dilation (as an index of vascular NO bioactivity), and serum cell adhesion molecules (as an index of NO-regulated markers of inflammation) were measured at the end of each treatment period. L-Arginine significantly increased arginine levels in plasma (130+/-53 versus 70+/-17 micromol/L, P<0.001) compared with placebo. However, there was no effect of L-arginine on nitrogen oxides (19.3+/-7.9 versus 18. 6+/-6.7 micromol/L, P=0.546), on flow-mediated dilation of the brachial artery (11.9+/-6.3% versus 11.4+/-7.9%, P=0.742), or on the cell adhesion molecules E-selectin (47.8+/-15.2 versus 47.2+/-14.4 ng/mL, P=0.601), intercellular adhesion molecule-1 (250+/-57 versus 249+/-57 ng/mL, P=0.862), and vascular cell adhesion molecule-1 (567+/-124 versus 574+/-135 ng/mL, P=0.473).
CONCLUSIONS:
Oral L-arginine therapy does not improve NO bioavailability in CAD patients on appropriate medical management and thus may not benefit this group of patients.

[Trans_Isomer]

^^^ strong two year delayed jimmie rustling effect

[Mr.Creatine]

bumping this

[DiabeticLifter]

bumping this

Why?

[cumminslifter]

Why?

this^

[myProgress]

Bump because I haven't seen an answer to the OP yet. can we just supplement with pills and get the same effects? I don't want to take in artificial flavors dyes etc but also don't want to pay $40 for a 20 serving Altius pwo that has what I want.