End of Controversy...Starting Strength Reviews

[FastCatChamp]

Presses don't mean shoulder joint (rotator cuff) stability. Program should include rows for rear & medial delts.

Please kick your review in.

[ptwa9]

Please kick your review in.

Ran it a while ago. Messed up my left shoulder benching while running it. Was nice to see BP numbers go up, but I'd have rather solidified form without pushing the weights up to where you're straining to make the lifts each week - that has it's place of course, but I find some fault in Rippetoe for recommending newbs to aggressively seek their maxes when they could be making steady progress on a more relaxed progression scheme (as long as you are providing progressive stimulus the program is sound).

It's not like your body adapts that fast to current max @ 3x5 anyway. You could provide your body with that same loading stimulus for 3 weeks and still cause adaptation. Seems kind of pointless to push your deadlift up 20lbs per week until stalling within a 10 week period. Lifting gains take a long time to accumulate, so why not lengthen that progression time frame?

[Farley1324]

Ran it a while ago. Messed up my left shoulder benching while running it. Was nice to see BP numbers go up, but I'd have rather solidified form without pushing the weights up to where you're straining to make the lifts each week - that has it's place of course, but I find some fault in Rippetoe for recommending newbs to aggressively seek their maxes when they could be making steady progress on a more relaxed progression scheme (as long as you are providing progressive stimulus the program is sound).

It's not like your body adapts that fast to current max @ 3x5 anyway. You could provide your body with that same loading stimulus for 3 weeks and still cause adaptation. Seems kind of pointless to push your deadlift up 20lbs per week until stalling within a 10 week period. Lifting gains take a long time to accumulate, so why not lengthen that progression time frame?

You prefer slower progression than what is possible?

If you are adding 20 pounds a week every week to your deadlift to the point of stalling you aren't following the program.

And even if you did do it that way is adding 200 pounds to your deadlift in two and a half months something you don't want to do?


I'd say you should just start out with 5/3/1 from the very beginning, then.

[SumDumGoi]

You prefer slower progression than what is possible?

If you are adding 20 pounds a week every week to your deadlift to the point of stalling you aren't following the program.

And even if you did do it that way is adding 200 pounds to your deadlift in two and a half months something you don't want to do?


I'd say you should just start out with 5/3/1 from the very beginning, then.

I think he is saying that your muscles don't adapt that quickly as to where you would increase the strength of the muscles by 200 lbs in 2.5 months. Which he is correct. He is also suggesting that by adding weight that aggressively might start to strain the muscles and joints. This might be because the beginning lifter who is unsupervised could easily shift their focus more towards increasing the weight at the sacrifice of proper form. That is another real possibility that may occur. Also, if the individual who took the slow and steady approach to increasing the weights were compared to the person who aggressively increased the weights after a few months they would most likely be in the same place because muscular hypertrophy simply does not occur at that rate. Therefore, why not be patient, take your time and do it right.

[FastCatChamp]

SDG...how did the dissertation go? Also, for anyone wanting to post a review...Post #2 is a template. Follow it and then throw in anything extra at the end.

[LiftHeavy85]

Ran the program May 1st 2009 -> August 1st 2009

Maxs May 1st

Squat 205
Deadlift 225
OHP 115
Bench 145

Both chest and shoulder use to be my weak point and this is no prior lifting for a good 3-4 years

Maxs August 1st 2009

Bench 185
OHP 155
Deadlift 365
Squat 355

Pros....quick progression, great way to get back into the gym, good strength gains in small time frame.
Cons - Maybe little more accessory work, feel beat up by the end of the program...could lead to possible burn out.

The program as I see it is great for those looking to get back into the gym from a long hiatus and usually a 12 week cycle would be all you could handle before moving onto something with a little slower progression and stress.

[BEhave]

I got strong pretty quick on this routine. Good solid gains. The bad part was squatting 3 times a week, your legs would always feel tense, but it kind of felt good lol.

[ptwa9]

You prefer slower progression than what is possible?

If strength is your goal then sure. For mass, it's not necessary.

If you are adding 20 pounds a week every week to your deadlift to the point of stalling you aren't following the program.

And even if you did do it that way is adding 200 pounds to your deadlift in two and a half months something you don't want to do?

200 -> 400lbs in 10weeks? Think that's a bit optimistic for a newb. 200->325 probably more reasonable.

I'd say you should just start out with 5/3/1 from the very beginning, then.

Like I said I messed up my shoulder from straining and not learning good form first (you can't expect newbs to have perfect form - like learning guitar - you fix things up gradually as you learn).

I think he is saying that your muscles don't adapt that quickly as to where you would increase the strength of the muscles by 200 lbs in 2.5 months. Which he is correct. He is also suggesting that by adding weight that aggressively might start to strain the muscles and joints. This might be because the beginning lifter who is unsupervised could easily shift their focus more towards increasing the weight at the sacrifice of proper form. That is another real possibility that may occur. Also, if the individual who took the slow and steady approach to increasing the weights were compared to the person who aggressively increased the weights after a few months they would most likely be in the same place because muscular hypertrophy simply does not occur at that rate. Therefore, why not be patient, take your time and do it right.

Yeah, pretty much. I was using the program to build strength with mass as the ultimate goal. Not looking to compete at powerlifting meets so I don't see the point in strength for strength's sake.

[Farley1324]

200 -> 400lbs in 10weeks? Think that's a bit optimistic for a newb. 200->325 probably more reasonable.

I was speaking directly and specifically to what you posted. 20 lbs a week x 10 weeks = 200 pounds in 10 weeks.

Seems kind of pointless to push your deadlift up 20lbs per week until stalling within a 10 week period.

[FastCatChamp]

I got strong pretty quick on this routine. Good solid gains. The bad part was squatting 3 times a week, your legs would always feel tense, but it kind of felt good lol.

If you could, use the template from Post #2 to give us a comprehensive look at how you did with SS. Thanks man.

[nkh]

(1)Dates that you ran SS
Somewhere in 2009 - January 1, 2010

(2)Beginning 3x5 and ending 3x5 stats
I only have 255 lbs of plates (home gym) lol
Squat - 85 / 255
Deadlift - 95 / 255
Bench - 95 / 165
Press - 45 / 95
Power Clean - 45 / 135

(3)Pros in your opinion
I ate poorly for the first bit, but stepped it up for a solid 3 months at the end of 2009. I probably put on 15 lbs of muscle over the course of 6-8 months. I weighed in about 170 and got as high as 201 in Dec. 2009, but cut some fat and have stayed at 186 for several months. My body fat is the lowest its been in a year, so I attribute the strength and mass gains to SS and me pounding some food and milk.

(4)Cons in your opinion.
None really unless you count having to read (buy) Practical Programming to take it to the next level (yes I own SSv2 and the DVD).

[rdferguson]

Uh OH!

Hey, if you're not following the program to the letter, then it's a bit harder to justify attributing results to the program. I don't buy into the belief that if you change things at all it'll make the program less effective (well, actually, with SS this may technically be true, since the specific goal of the program is to increase the main lifts - if I were to do the common thing of replacing power cleans with rows, then it would be almost impossible to achieve the programming goal of improving the power clean), but since additional exercises aren't part of the program (and since I only went about halfway-MAD), is it right to say I did the program? Or did I just do a similar program?

[Orlando1234977]

I don't buy into the belief that if you change things at all it'll make the program less effective

I know, props to you.. would rep but I must have recently..

[Farley1324]

Hey, if you're not following the program to the letter, then it's a bit harder to justify attributing results to the program. I don't buy into the belief that if you change things at all it'll make the program less effective (well, actually, with SS this may technically be true, since the specific goal of the program is to increase the main lifts - if I were to do the common thing of replacing power cleans with rows, then it would be almost impossible to achieve the programming goal of improving the power clean), but since additional exercises aren't part of the program (and since I only went about halfway-MAD), is it right to say I did the program? Or did I just do a similar program?

If a person has even a modest idea of what they are doing they can alter SS. I have never done SS to the letter. But I had enough of an idea about what I was doing that I didn't completely **** it up. Most noobs aren't so lucky, so they are told not to do anything. It is much safer/more simple this way

[cyu]

1) Sometime in early May -Actually started doing madcow first, which wasn't wise, but it was still linear progression training. Switched over to SS with a reset around mid july and still going.

2)3x5 in lbs
Squat 145-230
Bench 155-205
Deadlift 135- 245 (1x5)
OHP 85 - 115

BW 153-164lb

3)Pros- great progress and a great sense of achievement after every workout.
4)Cons - like some people have said. Doing heavy squats 3x a week kill you. Just recently my squat is starting to falter and I might have to reset again. I was loving each workout, but now i am kind of dreading it. I might do light squats on deadlift days like user earlier have suggested.

[ptwa9]

I was speaking directly and specifically to what you posted. 20 lbs a week x 10 weeks = 200 pounds in 10 weeks.

Seems kind of pointless to push your deadlift up 20lbs per week until stalling within a 10 week period.

Oh yeah I worded it kind of awkward. What I meant was why try increasing the weight as fast as possible over 10 weeks cause you'll probably just stall out by doing that and then try resetting etc. Lots of people post how they stalled and people just tell them to drop the weight and cycle up again. Might as well do 3x5x200 a couple times (workouts) since your body will adapt to it each time and you'll be able to get 3x6 probably after 3 workouts. Then up the weight.

Might take longer to get to 400lbs but you probably won't stall as soon as if you increased the weight by large increments each session. Adaptation to stimulus builds muscle and neural efficiency. If there's still adaptation to take place, then you increasing the weight by a large amount is just asking to stall. I'd rather increase my deadlift 5lbs each session or 10lbs every 3 sessions instead of the 15lbs per session that Rippetoe recommends to some of his trainees. If I'm coming in trying to rep out 3x5 at some weight I don't even think I can get all the reps, then maybe I'm trying too hard to convince myself that I need to add X amount of weight this session.

[Arezzz]

i wonna start doing SS in few days but im concerned about 2 things:

There is a high chance of back injury with all squats,power cleans and deadlifts.Did smb get injuries on this programme?

on my work i am lifting some boxes (from 10 to 30kg) to the amoount of 800-1000 pieces.

Wont that hinder my progress?

[NorwegianGuy92]

Last August I started on SS, and followed the routine for approximately 4 months, minus some weeks due to illness and travel.
So, my progress on SS ( I'll do this in lb, since most of you guys are from the US)

Stats
Squat:

2x5 213 lb ( not parallel, not even close)
3x5 303 lb, and 5,5,3 with 308 lb ( hammies parellel to the ground, so not quite deep enough, but way deeper than when I started)

Bench press:

Well, this sucked, I got no progress what so ever. Probably because it's an exercise that I had been doing a lot before. I was doing 4x200 8 months ago, and I never got past that. So after a good while I switched to incline bench, which I got to 3x5 155 lb( not very heavy).

Deadlift:

1x4 225 lb
1x5 298 lb

Military press:

2x5 100 lb
3x5 127 lb

Power clean

5x3 70-90 lb I guess
5x3 150 lb

And I also added about 10 lb to my dips.
My best set now is 2x5 BW + 55 lb.

Pros

- Solid strength gains
- High frequency, easier to get the technique right
- All the squatting fixed my knee pain

Cons

- Little mass gains for people who are slow twitch ( like me) because of the lower reps


I definitely recommend it, it really gave me a good start! Since then I've done other routines, and my numbers are going up steady.

[rdferguson]

Oh yeah I worded it kind of awkward. What I meant was why try increasing the weight as fast as possible over 10 weeks cause you'll probably just stall out by doing that and then try resetting etc. Lots of people post how they stalled and people just tell them to drop the weight and cycle up again. Might as well do 3x5x200 a couple times (workouts) since your body will adapt to it each time and you'll be able to get 3x6 probably after 3 workouts. Then up the weight.

Might take longer to get to 400lbs but you probably won't stall as soon as if you increased the weight by large increments each session. Adaptation to stimulus builds muscle and neural efficiency. If there's still adaptation to take place, then you increasing the weight by a large amount is just asking to stall. I'd rather increase my deadlift 5lbs each session or 10lbs every 3 sessions instead of the 15lbs per session that Rippetoe recommends to some of his trainees. If I'm coming in trying to rep out 3x5 at some weight I don't even think I can get all the reps, then maybe I'm trying too hard to convince myself that I need to add X amount of weight this session.

The 15-20lb/session is only in the first few weeks, and it seems the 20lb/session is only for particularly talented people who can handle it (at least, that's the impression I got while reading the book). And sooner or later, you'd get to the point where you only increase by 5lb/session, and then you'd progress by micro-loading until you stall. Personally, I was only increasing deadlift by 5kg/session (11 lb), but that got to be too much, so I went down to 2.5kg/session. Then when I finally stalled, I reset and started building back up. I see what you're saying, and Mark Rippetoe himself even says (I'm paraphrasing) that you shouldn't fear slow progress, because slow progress is still progress. But if you can progress at a certain rate, it's certainly worth at least considering the pros and cons of travelling that quickly or at another pace.

You also have to consider that he's not asking you to increase your 5RM by 15-20lb/session. He's taking someone who's never lifted before, starting them out very light, and adding up to 20lb onto the bar each session (only if it can be done safely), which will let you know how strong you are sooner rather than later. Since a lot of the gains made at the start of the program are from learning the movement, I can see the benefit in getting the form right while increasing the weight so that you will quickly reach a point where you can train at a more optimal intensity for actual strength and muscle mass gains.

[rdferguson]

i wonna start doing SS in few days but im concerned about 2 things:

There is a high chance of back injury with all squats,power cleans and deadlifts.Did smb get injuries on this programme?

on my work i am lifting some boxes (from 10 to 30kg) to the amoount of 800-1000 pieces.

Wont that hinder my progress?

Considering that each main lift gets an entire chapter devoted to learning the exercise, I'd dare say that technique itself is a big part of the program. That being said, the risk of back injuries isn't so great, since most injuries occur when you're doing it wrong.

As for occupation, it could hinder progress. Roll with the blows. The program should teach you how to lift, so it could have some work-related benefits. Even if you don't get the best progress you possibly could, giving the program your best shot will still make you almost definitely stronger than a lot of people in the gym.

[Kirra]

i wonna start doing SS in few days but im concerned about 2 things:

There is a high chance of back injury with all squats,power cleans and deadlifts.Did smb get injuries on this programme?

on my work i am lifting some boxes (from 10 to 30kg) to the amoount of 800-1000 pieces.

Wont that hinder my progress?

I've worked lifting fruit boxes a few months ago while training deadlifts twice a week and it was pretty much hell. My lower back was tired all the time and I had to drop deadlifting to once a week because I stalled all the time.

But the deadlifting techique does actually come in handy when your job is to lift boxes.

[Ironwake]

Dates:
8/15/2009-2/10/2010

Stats( Starting Weight -> Ending Weight )
Squats 115 3x5 -> 315 3x5
Bench 95 3x5 -> 180 3x5
Dead 95 3x5 -> 375 3x5
Press 60 3x5 -> 127.5 3x5
Body Weight 174lbs -> 208lbs

Didn't clean, only did rows half the time. Did chins/pullups a lot. Went from being able to do 3-4 to doing sets of 10+

After my cut I used SS again to regain any lost strength and am still eeking out some gains. Also added cleans, which are up from 65 5x3 (learning form ofc ) -> 135 5x3 in around 3 months.

Pros:
Laid out everything in simple form and left nothing to question ( though you'd think otherwise on this forum.. ). With the frequency of the lifts being so high, I was able to rapidly improve my form and gain a lot of strength. Very motivating to see PR after PR for weeks on end.

Cons:
Was a little boring at times, and is definitely a grind when you are setting back to back PRs. I had nearly perfect conditions ( 5k calories, 10 hours of sleep, very little other activity ) and I was struggling to keep up towards the end, many people simply lack in the recovery department to go for with the program.

[viennafat]

Hey FastCatChamp,
For the starting 3x5 numbers are you looking for the maxes or just what the person started with? Because unless people are posting their initial 3x5 maxes, the weight progression doesn't mean as much. Just thought this may need to be clarified in the OP.

Dates - Mid July 10' to present

Beginning 3x5 Weights/Ending 3x5 Weights:
Not finished so numbers won't mean anything just yet.

Pros: Great program for beginners to teach them what they need to know about the compound exercises. Will build a good base for newbies to build on later (whether it be strength training or bodybuilding). Will definitely help increase overall strength. Also a great program for people coming off a long lay-off (myself included) and wanting to get back into lifting. Some mass can be gained. It's structured and easy to follow. Not very time consuming.

Cons: Some people will need in-person supervision in order to perfect the form for some of the lifts. IMO, after a certain point squatting 3 times a week with only a day rest in between is tough to accomplish. Especially after a squat/deadlift day.

This program is specific to strength training so there is no need to mention that it does not build mass like a bodybuilding program or will get you into great cardio shape. That's not the intention.

[FastCatChamp]

Hey FastCatChamp,
For the starting 3x5 numbers are you looking for the maxes or just what the person started with? Because unless people are posting their initial 3x5 maxes, the weight progression doesn't mean as much. Just thought this may need to be clarified in the OP.

Some people are posting their beginning weights and typing ("maxes") next to it......but SS has a regimented way of finding your starting weights. I think it is fine if you put your beginning weight as that is the weight the programs guidlines dictated that you start at.

Thanks for the post....let us know your weight progression in the future.

[sonti]

I also think SS is a fantastic program for women. A lot of women (okay, most) do *not* push themselves enough. It's the opposite of the idiot men that load up the bars for ego but do poor form or fail - they just go way to light. Adding 5-10lbs per lift (and then microplates as you progress) is a good way to ensure that you are constantly pushing yourself. Now if most girls would actually eat some damn food to encourage gains, that would be even more impressive. For us moms, a 3x per week solid workout is also a big benefit, it's nearly impossible to get to the gym 5x per week.

I'll be running it again shortly, probably at the end of October.

[fellipe]

lookign at all these reviews I think my fault is to run SS although I'm not really interested in strength gains first, and as I've read that SS is great no matter your goal, reading this reviews I see why my body changed little (aresthetics wise) in the time I ran this program, even I getting 20lbs heavier. I'm at 3rd week of Allpro's (a more bodybuilding) oriented routine and it's already giving me the results I was expecting when I started SS. SS is a great program after all, but as someone said above, a 12week cycle is ebough to get your form and if you're more interested in body aesthetics, then switch to a more apropriated program. No need to run SS for 1 year. SS is the foundation. a 12 week is a good goal, then go whatever program you'd like.

[Farley1324]

Oh yeah I worded it kind of awkward. What I meant was why try increasing the weight as fast as possible over 10 weeks cause you'll probably just stall out by doing that and then try resetting etc. Lots of people post how they stalled and people just tell them to drop the weight and cycle up again. Might as well do 3x5x200 a couple times (workouts) since your body will adapt to it each time and you'll be able to get 3x6 probably after 3 workouts. Then up the weight.

Might take longer to get to 400lbs but you probably won't stall as soon as if you increased the weight by large increments each session. Adaptation to stimulus builds muscle and neural efficiency. If there's still adaptation to take place, then you increasing the weight by a large amount is just asking to stall. I'd rather increase my deadlift 5lbs each session or 10lbs every 3 sessions instead of the 15lbs per session that Rippetoe recommends to some of his trainees. If I'm coming in trying to rep out 3x5 at some weight I don't even think I can get all the reps, then maybe I'm trying too hard to convince myself that I need to add X amount of weight this session.

Yes. It would take longer. If you specifically want to progress slowly then SS is definately not for you. Just start out with 5/3/1 and progress on a monthly basis from the start.

BTW: When you come in trying to rep out 3x5 with some weight you don't even think you can get, then you get it, and it was actually easier than the previous workout even though you added 5 pounds, it's awsome. At least if you like progress/getting stronger, that is.

[guest89]

Can't remember the exact dates TBH. Somewhere between 3 and 5 months.
Weight 152ish - 165ish
Squat 155x5 > 285x5
Bench 115x5 > 165x5 (I think bad shoulders held me back)
Deadlift 200x5 > 335x5 (I got hurt, never stalled/was making easy progress)
OHP 65x5 > 130x5 (injured shoulders many times as a kid which probably held me back slightly)
PC 95x3 > 165x3 (Never stalled, got injured)

Pro's: Very fast strength gains. Acceptable weight/physique gains (again these two were affected by my extra curricular activities). Book is extremely educational/teaches about the core lifts. The DVD is extremely helpful as well for learning form/tecnique.

Con's: Proper nutrition/clean diet for the program. Lack of cardio. Lack of things like pullups/pushups/situps/running, even if its just once a month so you can see what your stats are for these numbers (they are important for qualifying for certain things).



A few things to note: Weight gain was hindered by 10-12 hours of Judo, 4 hours of swimming, and 6-7 hours of skateboarding per week. The Judo + swimming was for school so it wasn't optional. If I wasn't doing this stuff + had a perfect diet I could have ran the program longer and gotten better gains.


Also nutrition was hard because I was a busy college student. I definitely wasn't doing GOMAD. I would drink 2 large glasses of milk + muscle-milk 3x a week (lifting days). Non lifting days a large glass of milk (instead of a gallon a day).


Another major issue is that my squat, bench & OHP stalled at the numbers I listed. Right as I was in my first reset on them I suffered from two injuries so those numbers should have been broken/be a lot higher if I would have reset them. Technically the original program should be tried for about 2 resets.




Bottom line, my life didn't allow me to follow it 100% diet wise + resting on non-lifting days. E did eat and sleep as much as possible however and saw great strength results in a short time frame.

[FastCatChamp]

Final bump?

[Schism45]

Not sure of the time frame, ran it until it didn't work for me anymore.

(1RM)
Squat: 155-->375
Bench: 125-->225
Deadlift: 185-->405
Strict Military: 65-->140

Pros: Simple, fast progression.

Cons: I couldn't squat 3x per week for long, I made wednesday speed squats with 50-60% after a few weeks because I could never deadlift after squatting heavy.

Flexibility issues/imbalances are never addressed - I am currently working through some of the issues that never got dealt with, only made worse through this program.

Also, a gallon of milk a day is not the ideal way of putting on weight.