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    Registered User tkdnj's Avatar
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    Shoulder Issues Forcing Me to Rely on Isolation...Not Happy... Your Thoughts?

    Hey all First off, thanks for reading, I appreciate your feedback! I always did compound and isolation movements as my goals were for the most part always hypertrophy. I had extensive rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder in April 2015. It feels pretty good now. My left one has been giving me issues lately, with the main issue being where long head of the bicep tendon attaches in my shoulder. My biggest issues are with compound movements. Squats (because of the position of the shoulder), deads, pullups, and heavy barbell curls (because of the stress on the bicep tendon), and bench pressing movements cause me the most pain. At 52 now, I just want to remain in the game as I love to lift. For now (at least) I need to exclude these movements. I have been doing this for the last few weeks, still going intense and to failure, and getting good pumps.

    I am looking for your opinions regarding long term can I add muscle only doing isolation movements, if I go with the same intensity and to failure? While my shoulder is healing (which I hope it does without that dreaded surgery) I need to an upper / lower split (upper / off / lower / off / repeat) to give my shoulder 3 days of rest in between upper body workouts. This is what my workout will look like:

    Upper (31 total sets; sounds like a lot but remember they are all isolation exercises)
    Chest - 6 total sets
    --- Machine Pressing Movement 3 sets
    --- Cable Flyes (this doesn't hurt as most of my pain is sourced with the bicep tendon) 3 sets
    Shoulders - 7 total sets
    --- Overhead Dumbbell Press (this doesn't hurt as most of my pain is sourced with the bicep tendon) 3 sets
    --- Lateral Raises (very light with thumbs up) 2 sets
    --- Rear Delts 2 sets
    Triceps - 6 total sets (superset with biceps)
    --- Tricep Pushdowns 3 sets
    --- Reverse Pushdowns 3 sets
    Biceps - 6 total sets (superset with Triceps)
    --- Preacher Cable Curls 4 sets
    --- Concentration Curls 2 sets
    Lats - 6 total sets
    --- Pull Downs 3 sets
    --- Rows (Machine or dumbbell) 3 sets

    Lower (17 total sets)
    Leg Presses 4 sets
    Leg Extensions 3 sets
    Leg Curls 4 sets
    Calves 6 sets

    Note: I realize I should be doing more sets on my larger muscles (chest, back, shoulders) than smaller ones (biceps, triceps), but the smaller muscles groups are the ones that (at least for now) cause me no pain when training them

    Thanks!
    Last edited by tkdnj; 04-17-2017 at 05:31 PM.
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    Registered User jt88's Avatar
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    That's a lot for upper day. Isolation or not. You might gain some size doing all ISO but I wouldn't expect a lot. You need to get that looked at before you really injure yourself and can't lift at all.
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    Originally Posted by tkdnj View Post
    My biggest issues are with compound movements. Squats (because of the position of the shoulder), deads, pullups, and heavy barbell curls (because of the stress on the bicep tendon), and bench pressing movements cause me the most pain.
    Surprising that deads bother you, with all the bicep tendon issues I've had, deads have been fine.

    For squats can you mimic using a safety squat bar with straps? Hate to see someone missing out on the king of compounds for a technicality.
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    Can you gain muscle with iso? Yes.
    I don't lift weights, I flex under duress.

    My 12 month progress thread
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155962953&p=1113020323#post1113020323
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    Registered User gbk56's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tkdnj View Post

    ...

    My biggest issues are with compound movements. Squats (because of the position of the shoulder), deads, pullups, and heavy barbell curls (because of the stress on the bicep tendon), and bench pressing movements cause me the most pain. At 52 now, I just want to remain in the game as I love to lift. For now (at least) I need to exclude these movements. I have been doing this for the last few weeks, still going intense and to failure, and getting good pumps.

    ...
    Truthfully, you can do the isolations for now, but there seems to a bigger problem. Seems you are stressing your body too much and you already injured one rotator badly enough that you had to have surgery. You say you want to stay in the game, but you gotta listen to your body. Now your other rotator is in bad shape and is taking you out of half the game (can't do any compound movements) and relegating you to isolation movements. Seems you are either pushing yourself too much, have some form issues or a combination of both. You might want to look into your routines and progressions and see where you may need to adjust. Obviously your body is telling you it can't keep up with what you are doing now. You will be out of the game unless you adjust.
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    Registered User pastorgbc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tkdnj View Post
    Hey all First off, thanks for reading, I appreciate your feedback! I always did compound and isolation movements as my goals were for the most part always hypertrophy. I had extensive rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder in April 2015. It feels pretty good now. My left one has been giving me issues lately, with the main issue being where long head of the bicep tendon attaches in my shoulder. My biggest issues are with compound movements. Squats (because of the position of the shoulder), deads, pullups, and heavy barbell curls (because of the stress on the bicep tendon), and bench pressing movements cause me the most pain. At 52 now, I just want to remain in the game as I love to lift. For now (at least) I need to exclude these movements. I have been doing this for the last few weeks, still going intense and to failure, and getting good pumps.

    I am looking for your opinions regarding long term can I add muscle only doing isolation movements, if I go with the same intensity and to failure? While my shoulder is healing (which I hope it does without that dreaded surgery) I need to an upper / lower split (upper / off / lower / off / repeat) to give my shoulder 3 days of rest in between upper body workouts. This is what my workout will look like:

    Upper (31 total sets; sounds like a lot but remember they are all isolation exercises)
    Chest - 6 total sets
    --- Machine Pressing Movement 3 sets
    --- Cable Flyes (this doesn't hurt as most of my pain is sourced with the bicep tendon) 3 sets
    Shoulders - 7 total sets
    --- Overhead Dumbbell Press (this doesn't hurt as most of my pain is sourced with the bicep tendon) 3 sets
    --- Lateral Raises (very light with thumbs up) 2 sets
    --- Rear Delts 2 sets
    Triceps - 6 total sets (superset with biceps)
    --- Tricep Pushdowns 3 sets
    --- Reverse Pushdowns 3 sets
    Biceps - 6 total sets (superset with Triceps)
    --- Preacher Cable Curls 4 sets
    --- Concentration Curls 2 sets
    Lats - 6 total sets
    --- Pull Downs 3 sets
    --- Rows (Machine or dumbbell) 3 sets

    Lower (17 total sets)
    Leg Presses 4 sets
    Leg Extensions 3 sets
    Leg Curls 4 sets
    Calves 6 sets

    Note: I realize I should be doing more sets on my larger muscles (chest, back, shoulders) than smaller ones (biceps, triceps), but the smaller muscles groups are the ones that (at least for now) cause me no pain when training them

    Thanks!
    If I were in your shoes, I would max out on my back movements. Your are actually doing more for your arms and shoulders than you are for your back.

    If your shoulders are hurting you, I would let the dumbbell shoulder press be your only shoulder movement. I would also drop one of your arm supersets. I would replace them with back exercise.

    If you can do pulldowns, db rows, and machine rows, and they do not bother your shoulder/bicep tendon, then I would do all three on your upper body day. I would keep the chest movements as the are. I would probably start the workout with machine rows, move to chest, then the shoulder press, db rows, pulldowns, then your arm superset.

    I hope everything heals quickly for you.

    Ray
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    Registered User tkdnj's Avatar
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    Thanks all for great feedback!
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    Registered User tkdnj's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pastorgbc View Post
    If I were in your shoes, I would max out on my back movements. Your are actually doing more for your arms and shoulders than you are for your back.

    If your shoulders are hurting you, I would let the dumbbell shoulder press be your only shoulder movement. I would also drop one of your arm supersets. I would replace them with back exercise.

    If you can do pulldowns, db rows, and machine rows, and they do not bother your shoulder/bicep tendon, then I would do all three on your upper body day. I would keep the chest movements as the are. I would probably start the workout with machine rows, move to chest, then the shoulder press, db rows, pulldowns, then your arm superset.

    I hope everything heals quickly for you.

    Ray
    Thanks...what is the reasoning behind separating machine rows from the rest of the back/lat exercises? (why not do back/lats together?)

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    Registered User tkdnj's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jt88 View Post
    That's a lot for upper day. Isolation or not. You might gain some size doing all ISO but I wouldn't expect a lot. You need to get that looked at before you really injure yourself and can't lift at all.
    Had an MRI last year..small tears, surgery would be up to me. After going through it on my right shoulder I would only do surgery as a last resort. If I can work around it without making it worse, I'll go down that path first. Basically that is why I am asking about iso exercises.
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    Registered User tkdnj's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gbk56 View Post
    Truthfully, you can do the isolations for now, but there seems to a bigger problem. Seems you are stressing your body too much and you already injured one rotator badly enough that you had to have surgery. You say you want to stay in the game, but you gotta listen to your body. Now your other rotator is in bad shape and is taking you out of half the game (can't do any compound movements) and relegating you to isolation movements. Seems you are either pushing yourself too much, have some form issues or a combination of both. You might want to look into your routines and progressions and see where you may need to adjust. Obviously your body is telling you it can't keep up with what you are doing now. You will be out of the game unless you adjust.
    really good point, maybe I shouldn't go to failure on every set
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    Registered User tkdnj's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bando View Post
    Surprising that deads bother you, with all the bicep tendon issues I've had, deads have been fine.

    For squats can you mimic using a safety squat bar with straps? Hate to see someone missing out on the king of compounds for a technicality.
    Anything that pulls down on my arm, straightening out the bicep aggravates the bicep tendon. That's why I can do strict preacher curls, because the stress isn't pulling on the tendon.

    Great idea on the safety squat! Going to try it! Thanks!
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    The Mini Shadow Bando's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tkdnj View Post
    Anything that pulls down on my arm, straightening out the bicep aggravates the bicep tendon. That's why I can do strict preacher curls, because the stress isn't pulling on the tendon.
    OK well my vote would be to rehab yourself to get back to doing the compounds, but this is a long journey and there's room for experimenting as well as trial and error. Keep us posted on how it works out.
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