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  1. #1
    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Cool Program how to: Bill Starr's Big 3 5x5 (NOT madcows)

    I can't help but notice that this program is conspicuously absent around here. I do not recall seeing it in any of the stickies and it rarely, if ever, comes up in conversation. My reference for the basic programming is Starr's book, The Strongest Shall Survive, which I STRONGLY suggest just about every serious lifter purchase at some point. It can be easily located through multiple online sources.

    The basic program is relatively simple and can be used by a novice or an intermediate. The intended audience/trainee is that of an athlete. Specifically, a football player. However, what works for them can certainly be applied to others. The program can be followed for a long time, from entry level novice status well into the intermediate stage. There will be some slight changes along the way to help with this progression. I will discuss those later.

    The Basic Program is performed on three non-consecutive days per week. Each day you do five sets of five reps of each of Starr's Big Three. Power Clean, Bench Press, Squat. The weights are (generally, some exceptions apply) ramped up as you go from set to set. Intensity is varied day to day in the order of heavy, light, medium.

    .............

    Monday, Heavy. The topset should be as much as you can handle with good form.
    Power Clean 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5
    Squat 5x5

    Wed, Light. The topset should be 80% of what you used on Day One's
    Power Clean 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5
    Squat 5x5 (full weight front squats an acceptable substitute)

    Friday, Medium. The topset should be 90% of what you used on Day One's
    Power Clean 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5 (full weight standing press an acceptable sub that I strongly recommend)
    Squat 5x5

    ..........

    Ramping the weights
    As a rule of thumb you should go up in weight 10-15% between sets. However, the first set should not be so light as to be almost useless. If the topset weight is too low this can be avoided by repeating the inital weight for the second and maybe even the third set. For example, if 135 pounds is to be used as the heaviest weight on the final set then the first, second and third sets might all be at 115 pounds. The fourth would be at 125, and then 135 for the final. Also, if you are moving considerable weight on the topset, the jumps might have to be larger. A good rule of thumb is to never use more than 135 pounds for the first set, no matter how heavy the final.

    You add weight to the bar every week. There is no hard and fast rule for how much to add. Your traning history, current abilities, difficulty the previous work and the excercise in question all play a roll. For most people 2.5-5 pounds for the bench press and power clean and 5-10 pounds for the squat will be the norm.

    You should not need to rest very long between most sets. You may take additional rest, say 3-5 minutes, before attempting the final set.

    For more advanced trainees there are a few changes that can be made. *It should be noted that as long as the trainee is progressing changes hould not be made. One is a change in reps from 5x5 to 5-5-5-3-3-3 6-10. This may look quite a bit different but is essentially the same. The weights still ramp but the two heaviest sets of 5 have become three sets of three. This allows heavier weights to be used on the topset. The 6-10 is a backoff set that usually falls somewhere between the third and fourth set. The 6-10 rep range is allowed because it can be difficult to judge a precise weight and number of reps.

    An example given by Starr for the bench press: 135x5, 175x5, 225x5, 275x3, 305x3, 315x3, 255 6-10.

    Change in heavy/light/medium. There may come a point where a single heavy day with full effort on every list is a bit daunting. An alternative is:

    Monday:
    Power Clean - heavy
    Bench Press - medium
    Squat - light

    Wed:
    Power Clean - light
    Bench Press - heavy
    Squat - medium

    Friday
    Power Clean - medium
    Bench Press - light
    Squat - heavy
    Last edited by Farley1324; 07-31-2010 at 09:05 PM.
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  2. #2
    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Here is a full week's example of the basic 5x5 without any changes for the more advanced

    Monday
    Power Clean: 115 x 5, 135 x 5, 145 x 5, 155 x 5, 165 x 5
    Bench Press: 135 x 5, 155 x 5, 175 x 5, 190 x 5, 200 x 5
    Squat: 135 x 5, 165 x 5, 185 x 5, 205 x 5, 225 x 5

    Wed
    Power Clean: 115 x 5, 115 x 5, 115 x 5, 125 x 5, 135 x 5
    Bench Press: 135 x 5, 145 x 5, 155 x 5, 160 x 5
    Squats: 135 x 5, 150 x 5, 160 x 5, 170 x 5, 180 x 5

    Friday
    Power Clean: 115 x 5, 125 x 5, 135 x 5, 145 x 5, 150 x 5
    Bench Press: 135 x 5, 150 x 5, 160 x 5, 170 x 5, 180 x 5
    Squats: 135 x 5, 155 x 5, 175 x 5, 190 x 5, 205 x 5
    Last edited by Farley1324; 07-31-2010 at 09:23 PM.
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    He also had them performing the lifts in a circuit, to maximize usage of equipment and time.
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    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zephed56 View Post
    He also had them performing the lifts in a circuit, to maximize usage of equipment and time.
    True.

    Fortunately this is not a concern for the individual looking to train on his or her own.

    It is also not reasonably feasiable to take up two or three stations in the gym, including a squat rack and a bench.
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  5. #5
    Registered User tchudt's Avatar
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    interesting article by bill starr about how he intended the overhead press to be the main pushing exercise; broscience at the time deemed it too dangerous. so starr had to settle on the bench as part of the big three

    page 3.

    http://startingstrength.com/articles...ress_starr.pdf
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  6. #6
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    Subbed. Thanks for posting this. Been doing all pro's beginner routine for a while, he gave a couple ideas for next steps, and this seems along the same lines as a couple of them. Basically looking to continue getting strength gains, somewhere between novice and intermediate.
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    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AnotherMarc View Post
    Subbed. Thanks for posting this. Been doing all pro's beginner routine for a while, he gave a couple ideas for next steps, and this seems along the same lines as a couple of them. Basically looking to continue getting strength gains, somewhere between novice and intermediate.
    Sounds good. Feel free if you have further questions. The book, as well as other material I have come across, covers a great deal more than the little bit that I typed out.
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  8. #8
    Equipment Geek Mod Wildtim's Avatar
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    One thing that is very interesting to note is how this would flow smoothly right into his intermediate program with only slight progressive changes as the basic program pecomes unsustainable and progression must slow down.
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  9. #9
    Registered User AnotherMarc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Sounds good. Feel free if you have further questions. The book, as well as other material I have come across, covers a great deal more than the little bit that I typed out.
    Thanks. I've got Starting Strength in the mail. Next will probably either be Practical Programming or the Starr book, which I'd heard recommended before.
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  10. #10
    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AnotherMarc View Post
    Thanks. I've got Starting Strength in the mail. Next will probably either be Practical Programming or the Starr book, which I'd heard recommended before.
    I recommend SS first, of course, due to the information about actually performing the lifts, and I would get The Strongest Shall Survive second.

    I have SS, TSSS, Practical Programming and Strong Enough?. My short list that I plan to pick up by next month includes Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 and The Science and Practice of Weight Training. Also possibly a westside book.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    I recommend SS first, of course, due to the information about actually performing the lifts, and I would get The Strongest Shall Survive second.

    I have SS, TSSS, Practical Programming and Strong Enough?. My short list that I plan to pick up by next month includes Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 and The Science and Practice of Weight Training. Also possibly a westside book.
    Thanks for the recommendations. Yeah, need to read SS first for the lift info. Probably read and re-read, from everything I've been hearing about it.

    That'll give me time for one more cycle on All Pro's beginner routine, which will be 4 cycles or 20 weeks, and a great time to evaluate what comes next (or run a 5th cycle).

    Just in terms of thinking about a program roadmap, do people go from one 5x5 to another 5x5 typically, or tend to alternate between program types? I'm assuming that if you stall out on a given 5x5, the opportunity to progress right away on another 5x5 might be limited?
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    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AnotherMarc View Post
    Thanks for the recommendations. Yeah, need to read SS first for the lift info. Probably read and re-read, from everything I've been hearing about it.

    That'll give me time for one more cycle on All Pro's beginner routine, which will be 4 cycles or 20 weeks, and a great time to evaluate what comes next (or run a 5th cycle).

    Just in terms of thinking about a program roadmap, do people go from one 5x5 to another 5x5 typically, or tend to alternate between program types? I'm assuming that if you stall out on a given 5x5, the opportunity to progress right away on another 5x5 might be limited?
    Beware: Semi-random ramlbing of whatever comes to mind as I type follows:

    People use the term 5x5 rather generically. There are multiple "5x5" programs and they are setup rather differently. Some are even targeted at novices. It is true that most of them are strength based and designed for intermediate lifters. Chances are that if a person stalls while following an intermediate 5x5 pogression could be resumed without changing programs. Fixing sleep or diet, deloading, or making some relatively minor changes to their current program would probably do the trick.

    A lot of people seem to suffer from routine ADD though, and whenever they aren't seeing the results they want the first thing they do is blame the program and jump to another one in a knee jerk reaction. Sometimes they get a deload built in as they ease into the new program, which is what really helps them out of their rut. Sometimes the change in excercises, sets or reps creates the illusion of progression. Once in awhile it really was the programming, but not nearly as often as people think. In my opinion.

    When it might make sense to switch between program types is when one of centered around strength and the other around size/hypertrophy....or when you want to run something that is very specific, such as Smolov or Sheiko, or a some (other) kind of peaking program to get ready for a meet or competition.

    The Big 3 5x5 I discussed in the OP can be taylored to fit just about any lifter's exprience level. If one was stalling out on this program they almost surely would not need to change to something differen in order to continue progress. One of the changes I mentioned or diet, rest, deload, etc would probably do it.

    The same can be sad of Madcow's or The Texas Method (other intermediate strengt based 5x5s). Chances are a stall could be avoided or overcome without changing to a different program.


    What I think of as a natural progression for a strength or performance oriented lifter is Starting Strength ---> Intermediate 5x5 ---> 5/3/1

    SS is based on workout to workout progression only sustainable by novices. An intermediate 5x5 is week to week and 5/3/1 is montly progression. 5/3/1 is the kind of program you could literally follow for years and years and offers more flexibility.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Beware: Semi-random ramlbing of whatever comes to mind as I type follows:

    People use the term 5x5 rather generically. There are multiple "5x5" programs and they are setup rather differently. Some are even targeted at novices. It is true that most of them are strength based and designed for intermediate lifters. Chances are that if a person stalls while following an intermediate 5x5 pogression could be resumed without changing programs. Fixing sleep or diet, deloading, or making some relatively minor changes to their current program would probably do the trick.

    A lot of people seem to suffer from routine ADD though, and whenever they aren't seeing the results they want the first thing they do is blame the program and jump to another one in a knee jerk reaction. Sometimes they get a deload built in as they ease into the new program, which is what really helps them out of their rut. Sometimes the change in excercises, sets or reps creates the illusion of progression. Once in awhile it really was the programming, but not nearly as often as people think. In my opinion.

    When it might make sense to switch between program types is when one of centered around strength and the other around size/hypertrophy....or when you want to run something that is very specific, such as Smolov or Sheiko, or a some (other) kind of peaking program to get ready for a meet or competition.

    The Big 3 5x5 I discussed in the OP can be taylored to fit just about any lifter's exprience level. If one was stalling out on this program they almost surely would not need to change to something differen in order to continue progress. One of the changes I mentioned or diet, rest, deload, etc would probably do it.

    The same can be sad of Madcow's or The Texas Method (other intermediate strengt based 5x5s). Chances are a stall could be avoided or overcome without changing to a different program.


    What I think of as a natural progression for a strength or performance oriented lifter is Starting Strength ---> Intermediate 5x5 ---> 5/3/1

    SS is based on workout to workout progression only sustainable by novices. An intermediate 5x5 is week to week and 5/3/1 is montly progression. 5/3/1 is the kind of program you could literally follow for years and years and offers more flexibility.
    Awesome explanation, thanks! Before I took the time to start researching stuff, I definitely made the mistake of hitting the gym with either no plan or if I had one, I didn't really stick with it -- which was probably just as well because the plan was no good. Anyway, thanks again.
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    I can't help but notice that this program is conspicuously absent around here. I do not recall seeing it in any of the stickies and it rarely, if ever, comes up in conversation. My reference for the basic programming is Starr's book, The Strongest Shall Survive, which I STRONGLY suggest just about every serious lifter purchase at some point. It can be easily located through multiple online sources.

    The basic program is relatively simple and can be used by a novice or an intermediate. The intended audience/trainee is that of an athlete. Specifically, a football player. However, what works for them can certainly be applied to others. The program can be followed for a long time, from entry level novice status well into the intermediate stage. There will be some slight changes along the way to help with this progression. I will discuss those later.

    The Basic Program is performed on three non-consecutive days per week. Each day you do five sets of five reps of each of Starr's Big Three. Power Clean, Bench Press, Squat. The weights are (generally, some exceptions apply) ramped up as you go from set to set. Intensity is varied day to day in the order of heavy, light, medium.

    .............

    Monday, Heavy. The topset should be as much as you can handle with good form.
    Power Clean 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5
    Squat 5x5

    Wed, Light. The topset should be 80% of what you used on Day One's
    Power Clean 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5
    Squat 5x5 (full weight front squats an acceptable substitute)

    Friday, Medium. The topset should be 90% of what you used on Day One's
    Power Clean 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5 (full weight standing press an acceptable sub that I strongly recommend)
    Squat 5x5

    ..........

    Ramping the weights
    As a rule of thumb you should go up in weight 10-15% between sets. However, the first set should not be so light as to be almost useless. If the topset weight is too low this can be avoided by repeating the inital weight for the second and maybe even the third set. For example, if 135 pounds is to be used as the heaviest weight on the final set then the first, second and third sets might all be at 115 pounds. The fourth would be at 125, and then 135 for the final. Also, if you are moving considerable weight on the topset, the jumps might have to be larger. A good rule of thumb is to never use more than 135 pounds for the first set, no matter how heavy the final.

    You add weight to the bar every week. There is no hard and fast rule for how much to add. Your traning history, current abilities, difficulty the previous work and the excercise in question all play a roll. For most people 2.5-5 pounds for the bench press and power clean and 5-10 pounds for the squat will be the norm.

    You should not need to rest very long between most sets. You may take additional rest, say 3-5 minutes, before attempting the final set.

    For more advanced trainees there are a few changes that can be made. *It should be noted that as long as the trainee is progressing changes hould not be made. One is a change in reps from 5x5 to 5-5-5-3-3-3 6-10. This may look quite a bit different but is essentially the same. The weights still ramp but the two heaviest sets of 5 have become three sets of three. This allows heavier weights to be used on the topset. The 6-10 is a backoff set that usually falls somewhere between the third and fourth set. The 6-10 rep range is allowed because it can be difficult to judge a precise weight and number of reps.

    An example given by Starr for the bench press: 135x5, 175x5, 225x5, 275x3, 305x3, 315x3, 255 6-10.

    Change in heavy/light/medium. There may come a point where a single heavy day with full effort on every list is a bit daunting. An alternative is:

    Monday:
    Power Clean - heavy
    Bench Press - medium
    Squat - light

    Wed:
    Power Clean - light
    Bench Press - heavy
    Squat - medium

    Friday
    Power Clean - medium
    Bench Press - light
    Squat - heavy

    I'm a noob and want to know what is a power clean?
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    My only issue with "The Big Three" is why limit yourself to that. The deadlift IMO is the best overall basic compound move there is, not gonna include olympic lifts cause they take a long time to get form down, and it is not in this program as a big three. Like SS, this is not a bad beginner/novice program but I just don't like neglecting muscle groups for a long period of time.

    Yes, you can add certain moves as accessory lifts, but after doing 3 exercises 5x5 even 3x5 really heavy, would you have the energy to hit them properly? It's like saying SS is a totally balanced workout even though you are lifting way more push moves than pull, but you throw in 3 sets of chins after you squat,Bench,Powerclean your 5x5 or 3x5 max. I would think even your powercleans would be lacking. Although, since Deads, Bench, Powercleans all isometrically hit your upper back I guess that is balance?

    Don't get me wrong..I don't hate these programs. They are way better than the crap a newbie would make up for himself/herself(we have all done it b4 don't feel bad). I just don't think they are the ultimate beginner routines like most other ppl.
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    Originally Posted by screwedgenetics View Post
    My only issue with "The Big Three" is why limit yourself to that. The deadlift IMO is the best overall basic compound move there is, not gonna include olympic lifts cause they take a long time to get form down, and it is not in this program as a big three. Like SS, this is not a bad beginner/novice program but I just don't like neglecting muscle groups for a long period of time.

    Yes, you can add certain moves as accessory lifts, but after doing 3 exercises 5x5 even 3x5 really heavy, would you have the energy to hit them properly? It's like saying SS is a totally balanced workout even though you are lifting way more push moves than pull, but you throw in 3 sets of chins after you squat,Bench,Powerclean your 5x5 or 3x5 max. I would think even your powercleans would be lacking. Although, since Deads, Bench, Powercleans all isometrically hit your upper back I guess that is balance?

    Don't get me wrong..I don't hate these programs. They are way better than the crap a newbie would make up for himself/herself(we have all done it b4 don't feel bad). I just don't think they are the ultimate beginner routines like most other ppl.
    Bill Starr has 40+ years of experience in strength routines and HE SAYS that the power clean is THE #1 lift of all of the lifts in a weightroom. I like the deadlift too, but I wouldnt argue with Starr.

    Anyone could use this Big 3 routine, But........it is clearly more suited for an intermediate, not a beginner. Every experienced lifter in this thread would recommend SS or an SS-like program to run ahead of this Big 3 routine.

    Great thread Farley!
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    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by screwedgenetics View Post
    My only issue with "The Big Three" is why limit yourself to that. The deadlift IMO is the best overall basic compound move there is, not gonna include olympic lifts cause they take a long time to get form down, and it is not in this program as a big three. Like SS, this is not a bad beginner/novice program but I just don't like neglecting muscle groups for a long period of time.

    Yes, you can add certain moves as accessory lifts, but after doing 3 exercises 5x5 even 3x5 really heavy, would you have the energy to hit them properly? It's like saying SS is a totally balanced workout even though you are lifting way more push moves than pull, but you throw in 3 sets of chins after you squat,Bench,Powerclean your 5x5 or 3x5 max. I would think even your powercleans would be lacking. Although, since Deads, Bench, Powercleans all isometrically hit your upper back I guess that is balance?

    Don't get me wrong..I don't hate these programs. They are way better than the crap a newbie would make up for himself/herself(we have all done it b4 don't feel bad). I just don't think they are the ultimate beginner routines like most other ppl.
    Power Clean > Deadlift.
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    Good post OP. I was going to do Starrs big 3 but decided on Madcows for a few reasons.

    1) Both my chest and shoulders have been lacking because of a shoulder injury so I definitely wanted to continue to bench and OHP.

    2) Madcows allows for the clean and the dead (two of my favorite lifts)

    3) Have heard lots of good feedback about Madcows and Starrs original big 3 is relatively unknown/ I've never talked to anyone who does it.


    I need to pick up TSSS one of these days though. I've heard good things about it.
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    Seems like a great routine but I have a question about it. Why aren't there any back targeting exercises (Bentover Row, Pullups, etc)? It seems to me that doing this for too long and neglecting the back would lead to muscular imbalances later on? Also does this program have targeted core work or are the main lifts serving as ab work?
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    Barkley Farlesworth II Farley1324's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by guest89 View Post
    Good post OP. I was going to do Starrs big 3 but decided on Madcows for a few reasons.

    1) Both my chest and shoulders have been lacking because of a shoulder injury so I definitely wanted to continue to bench and OHP.

    2) Madcows allows for the clean and the dead (two of my favorite lifts)

    3) Have heard lots of good feedback about Madcows and Starrs original big 3 is relatively unknown/ I've never talked to anyone who does it.


    I need to pick up TSSS one of these days though. I've heard good things about it.
    That is why I made this thread, simply because there seems to be a general ignorance of the program and that doesn't seem Just.


    RE: Your shoulders and bench/OHP keep in mind that, as I mentioned in the OP, the press can be worked in. You simply do your overhead presses at full effort in place of the medium bench press.



    Originally Posted by SeanWoodall View Post
    Seems like a great routine but I have a question about it. Why aren't there any back targeting exercises (Bentover Row, Pullups, etc)? It seems to me that doing this for too long and neglecting the back would lead to muscular imbalances later on? Also does this program have targeted core work or are the main lifts serving as ab work?
    That is the job of the power clean.

    No targeted core work, though it can potentially be added.
    Successful people do what they need to, especially when they don't feel like it.

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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    Power Clean > Deadlift.
    Under what context? Training for Football? Which is the majority of Starr's work..

    Obviously Power Clean is not > Deadlift for a Powerlifter that's tested on um Dead, Squat and Bench. For bodybuilding, most wouldn't mention either as the best back exercise.

    But for football, sure the Power Clean is pretty awesome.
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    Originally Posted by Orlando1234977 View Post
    Under what context? Training for Football? Which is the majority of Starr's work..

    Obviously Power Clean is not > Deadlift for a Powerlifter that's tested on um Dead, Squat and Bench. For bodybuilding, most wouldn't mention either as the best back exercise.

    But for football, sure the Power Clean is pretty awesome.
    Possibly for anything other than training for a powerlifting meet, although Starr has argued that one can train every bit as effectively for a powerlifting meet without regularly performing deadlifts.



    Originally Posted by Bill Starr, an excerpt from The Strongest Shall Survive
    Very few people, and this includes the top competitive weightlifters, keep a good back position on a heavy dead lift. The football player can build the same power in the lower back through the other suggested excercises without the risk of injury. It's just not worth the risk because the trainee can accomplish the same goal by other means.

    The author knows of several instances where Olympic weightlifters did power cleans, power pulls, shrugs along with their cleans and snatches. These quicker movements made many of them stronger in the dead lift than their fellow powerlifters who practiced the dealft two or three times a week.
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    That is the job of the power clean.
    i, too, am curious about the lack of direct lat work (ie: BOR, pulls/chins), etc. is the power clean supposed to address those?
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    Originally Posted by workhor5e View Post
    do powercleans engage the lats?
    Yes.
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    Powerclean is not > deadlift and powerclean is not the best back move. Powerclean is an amazing trap and leg move and I think it should be in almost every routine out there. However, to argue that the deadlift, a move that is easy to perform correctly and extremely beneficial to do, should not be used in your routine is rediculous. Why not take out the squat? Yes, the squat hits the lower body more than deads but deads hit total body better than squats. Hell, I think it is impossible to say deads > squats or squats > deads. Both are easy to learn, easy to perform with proper form, and very heavy weight can be used(way heavier than powercleans, although deads and squats have slower recruitment rate). All three are kings, but the Powerclean is a completely diff kind of exercise than deads and squats and should not be compared to them.

    So...if Starr thinks Powercleans > Deads than I think he is wrong. Also if you think powercleans, iso from bench, and a few sets of chins at the end of your routine are gonna work your back evenly with your chest GL.
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    Originally Posted by workhor5e View Post
    i, too, am curious about the lack of direct lat work (ie: BOR, pulls/chins), etc. is the power clean supposed to address those?
    yes powercleans and Bench Press(yes bench) both will hit your lats. Powercleans also hit your traps. Traps however are the only back muscle that get hit equally as hard as chest in SS or 5x5
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    Originally Posted by screwedgenetics View Post
    Powerclean is not > deadlift and powerclean is not the best back move. Powerclean is an amazing trap and leg move and I think it should be in almost every routine out there. However, to argue that the deadlift, a move that is easy to perform correctly and extremely beneficial to do, should not be used in your routine is rediculous. Why not take out the squat? Yes, the squat hits the lower body more than deads but deads hit total body better than squats. Hell, I think it is impossible to say deads > squats or squats > deads. Both are easy to learn, easy to perform with proper form, and very heavy weight can be used(way heavier than powercleans, although deads and squats have slower recruitment rate). All three are kings, but the Powerclean is a completely diff kind of exercise than deads and squats and should not be compared to them.

    So...if Starr thinks Powercleans > Deads than I think he is wrong. Also if you think powercleans, iso from bench, and a few sets of chins at the end of your routine are gonna work your back evenly with your chest GL.

    There are deadlift vs clean discussions on this site and we do not need to go into that in this thread.

    For the record, though, I choose to listen to Bill Starr over you.
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    Originally Posted by Farley1324 View Post
    There are deadlift vs clean discussions on this site and we do not need to go into that in this thread.

    For the record, though, I choose to listen to Bill Starr over you.
    As you should. He has been doing this for a long time and knows his stuff, both Rippletoe and Starr.

    They are like strength versions of Tony Horton.
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    Originally Posted by shlarca View Post
    I'm a noob and want to know what is a power clean?
    Power Clean:
    exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/Clean.html


    There is also the clean and jerk variation, a lot of people use the names interchangably.

    Clean and Jerk:
    exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/CleanAndJerk.html



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    Originally Posted by SeanWoodall View Post
    Seems like a great routine but I have a question about it. Why aren't there any back targeting exercises (Bentover Row, Pullups, etc)? It seems to me that doing this for too long and neglecting the back would lead to muscular imbalances later on? Also does this program have targeted core work or are the main lifts serving as ab work?
    How many threads on programs are you going to get into in order to bad mouth or not agree with the layout when you HAVE NOT RAN ANY OF THEM??????????????????

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