Practical Advice for ZMA supplementation with bedtime casein

[nickortego]

I've been taking a ZMA supplement before bed and I'm going to start adding a serving of casein protein at bedtime. Any ideas on how to time things so that the high calcium content in the casein won't interfere very much with the zinc absorption? The only idea I can come up with is to take the ZMA before dinner. Then 1-2 hours later, ingest the casein right before bed.

[DarinK]

This is just my opinion, but unless you have problems sleeping at night, I would just ditch the ZMA and take something like a good multi before bed. ZMA is like glutamine, both overrated.

[The Brotherhood]

Originally Posted by dkf10425

This is just my opinion, but unless you have problems sleeping at night, I would just ditch the ZMA and take something like a good multi before bed. ZMA is like glutamine, both useless.

fixed

[bravo03]

Originally Posted by nickortego

I've been taking a ZMA supplement before bed and I'm going to start adding a serving of casein protein at bedtime. Any ideas on how to time things so that the high calcium content in the casein won't interfere very much with the zinc absorption? The only idea I can come up with is to take the ZMA before dinner. Then 1-2 hours later, ingest the casein right before bed.

take ZMA, than wait 45 mins to 1 hour to down the casein protein, some people take the casein protein and wake up later to take the ZMA, maybe from a bathroom break or hunger..

[DarinK]

Originally Posted by The Brotherhood

fixed

Thank you.

[alexclark]

What's useless about zinc, magnesium, and vitamin b6? Having them peak in your bloodstream when anabolic hormones reach high levels (1-2 hours into sleep) makes sense to me.

To the OP, studies have shown zma works best when taken 30-60 minutes before bed. I usually take it 60 minutes before bed on an empty stomach, then have my casein protein right before my head hits the pillow.

[randomality]

i like zma... my quality of sleep seems so much better now that i take it, and glutamine works wonders for me.

it's not useless just because it didn't workout for you. creatine monohydrate seems to only work for something like 70% of the population, and you might be a non responder. that doesn't make it useless now does it?

[The Brotherhood]

Originally Posted by randomality

i like zma... my quality of sleep seems so much better now that i take it, and glutamine works wonders for me.

it's not useless just because it didn't workout for you. creatine monohydrate seems to only work for something like 70% of the population, and you might be a non responder. that doesn't make it useless now does it?

Glutamine isnt worthless only because it didnt work for me, its useless because theres no documented studies that show it helping with fiber repair, recovery, or anabolism, and there are studies that show it not doing anything, even when dosed intravenously to bypass its bad bioavailability.

[DarinK]

Originally Posted by alexclark

What's useless about zinc, magnesium, and vitamin b6? Having them peak in your bloodstream when anabolic hormones reach high levels (1-2 hours into sleep) makes sense to me.

To the OP, studies have shown zma works best when taken 30-60 minutes before bed. I usually take it 60 minutes before bed on an empty stomach, then have my casein protein right before my head hits the pillow.

The original study showing ZMA to be beneficial was funded and co-authored by the guy who made it, Victor Conte. (quote from Wikipedia)
"A 1999 study was undertaken on NCAA Football players during an 8 week spring training program. Those who took the ZMA tablets showed greater increases in muscle strength, free testosterone levels, and IGF-1 levels. These ZMA study results were presented by Dr. Brilla (a sports performance researcher at Western Washington University) on June 2, 1999, at the 46th Annual Meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine in Seattle, Washington. It is important to note that this study was funded by SNAC Systems Inc. (the patent holders) and that one of the study's authors (Victor Conte) has equity in this company."

The real scientific study said this about ZMA.
"Summary. Results of the present study do not support contentions that ZMA supplementation increases zinc or magnesium status and/or affects training adaptations in experienced resistance trained males with normal zinc status. These findings are in contrast with the notion that ZMA supplementation can increase zinc and magnesium status, anabolic hormone status, and/or strength gains during training. These findings refute claims that ZMA supplementation in the amount and manner investigated provides ergogenic value to experienced resistance trained athletes."[1]
1.Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism.


Note the author of the original study: "Brilla LR, Conte, V. Effects of zinc-magnesium (ZMA) supplementation on muscle attributes of football players. Med and Sci in Sports and Exercise, Vol. 31, No. 5, May 1999."

[alexclark]

Originally Posted by dkf10425

The original study showing ZMA to be beneficial was funded and co-authored by the guy who made it, Victor Conte. (quote from Wikipedia)
"A 1999 study was undertaken on NCAA Football players during an 8 week spring training program. Those who took the ZMA tablets showed greater increases in muscle strength, free testosterone levels, and IGF-1 levels. These ZMA study results were presented by Dr. Brilla (a sports performance researcher at Western Washington University) on June 2, 1999, at the 46th Annual Meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine in Seattle, Washington. It is important to note that this study was funded by SNAC Systems Inc. (the patent holders) and that one of the study's authors (Victor Conte) has equity in this company."

The real scientific study said this about ZMA.
"Summary. Results of the present study do not support contentions that ZMA supplementation increases zinc or magnesium status and/or affects training adaptations in experienced resistance trained males with normal zinc status. These findings are in contrast with the notion that ZMA supplementation can increase zinc and magnesium status, anabolic hormone status, and/or strength gains during training. These findings refute claims that ZMA supplementation in the amount and manner investigated provides ergogenic value to experienced resistance trained athletes."[1]
1.Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism.


Note the author of the original study: "Brilla LR, Conte, V. Effects of zinc-magnesium (ZMA) supplementation on muscle attributes of football players. Med and Sci in Sports and Exercise, Vol. 31, No. 5, May 1999."

Looks like bb.com is gonna have a hard time selling ZMA with you around . I agree, the football player study was likely bias. But I'm convinced ZMA has an effect, even if it is small. The effects that zinc, magnesium, and vitamin b6 have on your body are real, and so are growth hormone levels peaking soon after you fall asleep. The combination is ideal for an athlete - even if one of your studies didn't say so.

[Speedbuff]

RESEARCH SUPPORTIVE OF ZMA SUPPLEMENTATION

1. The effect of zinc depletion on muscle function was tested in 8 male subjects. After receiving 12 mg Zn/day for 17 days, the subjects received 0.3 mg Zn/day for either 33 or 41 days. The subjects were then divided into two groups for zinc repletion. Group A subjects received overnight infusion of 66 mg of Zn on Day 1 and 10 and then were fed 12 mg Zn/day for another 16 days. Group B subjects were fed 12 mg Zn/day for 21 days. Peak force and total work capacity of the knee and shoulder extensor and flexor muscle groups were assessed using an isokinetic dynamometer at baseline, at two points during depletion, and at repletion. Plasma zinc levels decreased by an average of 67% during depletion and remained 9% below baseline after repletion. The peak force of the muscle groups was not found to be significantly affected by acute zinc depletion, however, shoulder peak force (strength) was found to be reduced by 9.2% in the extensor muscles. Total work capacity (muscle endurance) for the knee extensor muscles and shoulder extensor and flexor muscles declined significantly by 28.1%, 24.1% and 26.4%, respectively. This study demonstrates that muscle endurance, or total work capacity, declines rapidly with acute zinc depletion and the degree of the decline was correlated with the reduction in plasma zinc concentration.

Van Loan, MD, et al. The Effects of Zinc Depletion on Peak Force and Total Work of Knee and Shoulder Extensor and Flexor Muscles. Int J of Sport Nutr, June 1999, Vol. 9, No. 2, 125-135.

2. A study was conducted to determine the effects of magnesium supplementation on strength development during a double-blind, 7-week strength training program in 26 untrained subjects (14=placebo, 12= Mg), 18-30 years old. Pre and post peak quadriceps torque (leg press) measurements were made using an isokinetic dynamometer. The leg muscle strength of the magnesium supplemented group significantly increased by 26%, compared to only 10% for the placebo group.

Brilla, LR, et al. Effect of Magnesium Supplementation on Strength Training in Humans. J Am Coll Nutr, July 1992, Vol 11, No. 3, 326-329

3. Serum zinc levels were determined in 160 training athletes (103 males and 57 females). In 23.3% of male and 43% of female athletes, serum zinc was significantly below the "normal range".

Haralambie, G. Serum zinc in athletes in training. Int J Sports Med 2 (1981) 135-138.

4. Magnesium, zinc and copper status of 270 US Navy Sea, Air and Land (SEAL) trainees was determined from dietary intakes and biochemical profiles. The dietary intakes of 34% and 44% of the trainees were below the RDA for Mg and Zn, respectively. The blood plasma concentrations of Mg and Zn were significantly below the "normal range" for 23% and 24% of the trainees, respectively.

Sing A, et al. Magnesium, Zinc and Copper status of US Navy SEAL trainees. Am J Clin Nutr 1989;49:695-700.

5. Serum zinc levels were measured in 20 adolescent gymnasts (9 boys, 11 girls, age 12-15). They had 26% lower serum zinc levels (0.599 +/- 0.026 mg/l) when compared to 118 matched controls (0.810 +/- 0.014, p < 0.001). The gymnasts serum zinc levels were positively correlated with adductor strength (r=0.468, p < 0.05). The 11 of 20 gymnasts with serum zinc < 0.6 mg/L had lower insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3 levels than the others (2.326 +/- 0.064 vs 2.699 +/- 0.12, p < 0.01). This protein is supposed to reflect growth hormone activity. Thus, zinc is lowered in trained adolescent gymnasts and this reduction could play a role in abnormalities of growth or muscular performance.

Brun J, et al. Serum zinc in highly trained adolescent gymnasts. Bio Trac Elem Res, 1995, Vol. 47, 273-278.

6. Twenty-one professional football (soccer) players underwent a maximal exercise test on a cycloergometer, with progressively increasing workloads until VO2max. On the whole these subjects had low serum zinc because nine (43%) of them had a hypozincemia (0.54 +/- 0.01 mg/L) which suggested a zinc deficiency. The subjects with low serum zinc had a 26% lower power output (123 +/- 8.71 vs. 166.27 +/- 14.84 watts, p = 0.029) and exhibited a 35% higher increase in blood lactate (lactic acid) during exercise (7.51 +/- 0.81 vs. 5.57 +/- 0.33 mmol/L, p <0.04) resulting in a 24% lower 2 mmol lactate threshold (44.7 +/- 3.9% vs. 58.9 +/- 4.8% of maximal power output p < 0.04). In conclusion, this study suggests that zinc status may influence blood rheology (flow) during exercise by an effect related to lactate accumulation.

Khaled S, et al. Serum zinc and blood rheology in sportsmen (football players. Clin Hemo and Micro 17 (1997) 47-48.

7. Ten collegiate basketball players serum mineral levels were measured before official practice began and immediately following the competitive season. Diets were monitored and remained the same throughout the four month period. Mean serum values for Mg and Zn decreased pre-season to post- season by 16% and 41%, respectively.

Lefavi RG, et al. Reduced serum mineral levels in basketball players after season. Med and Sci in Sports and Exer. Vol. 27, No. 5, May 1995

8. Twelve professional volleyball players and 12 control subjects were studied to determine the effects of daily physical training on serum, sweat and urine zinc concentrations. The professional athletes trained every day in two sessions, one in the morning (work in the gym for 2 hours) and another in the afternoon (specific work on the sports field for 3 hours). Simultaneously, 12 male volunteer university students, who were moderately trained, participated as the control group. The study was conducted over a period of 10 weeks. Pre-post tests were made using a progressive bicycle ergometer (increasing 30 W every 3 minutes to reach a maximum tolerated power). Pre-post blood samples were obtained at rest and immediately following exercise. After ten weeks of training, the professional athletes showed a significant increase in 24 hour urinary zinc excretion (22% greater losses), in contrast to a slight decrease (2% less) in the controls. The athletes also showed a very significant increase in the zinc loses in sweat compared to the controls. The athletes sweat zinc concentrations increased by an astounding 300%, compared to only 30% increases in the control group. The athletes serum zinc levels decreased by 4%, compared to a 2% decrease in the control group. Finally, the post exercise cortisol levels of the athletes significantly increased by 93%, compared to only an 18% increase in the controls. The authors stated that the athletes "cortisol levels increased in response to the exercise work load stress, and this behavior seems to be related to muscular damage". The authors went on to say that "It seems that the changes in zinc metabolism found in the study may be damage, increased protein turnover and increased zinc excretion (via sweat and urine). Because strenuous exercise during a period of competition can induce a "catabolic state" and has been shown to increase skeletal muscle protein turnover, it is likely that urine zinc is derived from muscle tissue". The authors concluded by saying that "Zinc supplementation and/or stress control appear to be indicated in athletes. In our practical opinion, we think that alterations in zinc metabolism with increases in zinc excretion and stress levels lead to a situation of latent fatigue with a decrease of endurance".

Cordova A, et al. Effect of training on zinc metabolism: changes in serum and sweat concentrations in sportsmen. Ann Nutr Metab, 1998 42:5, 274-82.

9. Plasma zinc, iron, copper and selenium levels were measured in 66 Navy SEAL trainees before and after a 5 day period of sustained physical and psychological stress called "Hell Week". The trainees pre-post plasma zinc levels decreased by 33%.

Singh A, et al. Biochemical indices of selected trace minerals in men: effect of stress. Am J Clin Nutrition 1991; 53:126-31.

10. Nine healthy, male subjects (18-40 years) were supplemented daily with 365 mg of magnesium as aspartate for 14 days. Before and after the supplementation period each subject performed a rigorously identical one hour ergometer exercise. The magnesium supplementation significantly reduced the subjects plasma levels of the catabolic "stress" hormone cortisol by an average of 25% (P < 0.025), which remained decreased during the exercise. The magnesium also significantly lowered the subjects' heart rates throughout the exercise period by an average of 8% (P < 0.03). Golf SW, et al. Plasma aldosterone, cortisol and electrolyte concentrations in physical exercise after magnesium supplementation. Clin Chem Clen Biochem, 1984, Vol. 22, pp. 717-721.

11. Medical students were tested to determine the acute effect of zinc supplementation on cortisol levels. The test was started at 7:00 AM after a 12 hour fast. Serial blood samples were collected from an experimental zinc group and controls at 30 minute intervals for 240 minutes. A subgroup of 7 subjects (3 men, 4 women) ingested 25 mg of zinc immediately after the baseline collection and their cortisol levels were compared to 8 matched controls who received a placebo. The control group started out with an average cortisol level of 11 mcg/dL and fell to 9 mcg/dL at 240 minutes, which is an 18% reduction. The zinc supplemented group started out with an average cortisol level of 16 mcg/dL and significantly dropped to 6.5 mcg/dL, which is a 59% reduction. In summary, the zinc supplemented group had a 41% greater reduction in cortisol levels compared to controls. The fact that zinc inhibits basal cortisol secretion in humans may be related to a direct blockade of cortisol synthesis and secretion in the adrenal cortex.

Brandao-Neto J, et al. Zinc acutely and temporarily inhibits adrenal cortisol secretion in humans. Bio Trace Elem Res, 1990, Vol. 24, 83-89.

12. Nine men participated in an 85 day zinc depletion/repletion study divided into 3 metabolic periods: 18 day baseline, a 44 day depletion, and a 23 day repletion. 12 mg of zinc per day was fed to the men during baseline and were held constant after adjustments during the baseline period. Plasma zinc declined from 77.1 +/- 0.03 mcg/dl at baseline to 28.1 +/- 0.07 mcg/dl at depletion; concentrations returned to 77.9 +/- 0.03 mcg/dl at repletion. Total body weight, fat, fat-free mass (FFM), and bone mineral did not change during depletion, but total body water increased 5.3% +/- 1.9%, or about 2 kg or 4.4 lbs (P <0.05) by the end of the depletion and returned to baseline values at the end of repletion. The percent water in FFM increased from 71% +/- 1 to 75% +/- (P <0.05) at the end of depletion and was associated with a small decrease in body protein. The data suggest that zinc depletion impairs water balance.

Sutherland B, et al, Effect of experimental zinc depletion on body composition and basal metabolism in men. The FASEB Journal, Mar. 10, 1995, Volume 9, Number 4.
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