ATG form help

[kikichenkov]

Hey guys just wondering if anyone could give me a few tips, advice & critic.
I seem to be getting stuck/good morning when coming up out of the hole whilst squatting ATG.

I've had a few musculoskeletal imbalances (flat feet, winged scapula, bowed legs) which I've mostly sorted out, so I've gone back to building up my squat again. I feel that my left leg is still a bit funny (tight ankles, hip flexor both of which I am slowly trying to stretch out).
Currently squatting 60kg (10 set of 3) @52kg, 165cm. I'm not sure how I should go about this. Whether I should be going lighter weight with higher reps so I can know for sure I am activating hips properly because I can feel that I am probably using my quads too much... Maybe I shouldn't squat as low?

I've filmed myself during 4th-6th set. I usually squat with a narrower stance just testing out a bit wider stance than I am used to so I can push my knees out more.
I'm not sure. Help!

I can't post a link but I've uploaded a video onto youtube titled "Atg squat 60kg@52kg form help"
Thank you in advance!!

[kikichenkov]

If someone else could link the video for me that would mean alot Cheers!

[Zero_Degreez]

[Zero_Degreez]

I notice a few things:

1. You drop quite quickly, can you descent a bit slower?
2. Your knees move in quite a lot.
3. You seem to have asymmetric hip movement, i.e. the right hip seems to ascend before the left

I have had similar problems. Can you try box squatting with a wide stance? This will work on really activating your glutes which will keep your knees out. You should also be slow and controlled lowering down, pause on the box for a second or two, then pull the tummy buttom in, squeeze the glutes and push on your heels to explode up (keep very upright).

[kikichenkov]

I notice a few things:

1. You drop quite quickly, can you descent a bit slower?
2. Your knees move in quite a lot.
3. You seem to have asymmetric hip movement, i.e. the right hip seems to ascend before the left

I have had similar problems. Can you try box squatting with a wide stance? This will work on really activating your glutes which will keep your knees out. You should also be slow and controlled lowering down, pause on the box for a second or two, then pull the tummy buttom in, squeeze the glutes and push on your heels to explode up (keep very upright).

I never realised that would be an issue :S
I've been trying to figure out whether or not it would be appropriate for me to slight knee bend first (or hip bend) as I descend, so I guess I just 'dropped' without thinking...
I had noticed I had an even worse hip sway only a few months back, it's gotten alot better since in comparison... (i think)

I do think I have a problem with activating my glutes :\ I feel that I have tight ankles and I don't fall back into the heels of my feet as much as I could... How can I over come it? It is simply tight ankles?? or is it a bigger issue??
How wide should the box squat stance be?
I had been doing something similar with lighter weights but without a box. Slow descend down, count to 3 on the bottom and hip drive up. Is that a somewhat equivalent??

Thank you so much btw! Repped

[kikichenkov]

Also could it be that 60kg is too heavy for me at this point in time? I feel that since I've been working on my bunion and arches that I am slowly getting my feet back. Should I drop the weights and aim for higher reps (as well as adding in box squats)? Would that be a more productive approach??
I have also been trying out overhead squats and front squats (just with bar) I seem to be able to manage ok which indicates my musculature should be ok, right??

[Zero_Degreez]

I never realised that would be an issue :S
I've been trying to figure out whether or not it would be appropriate for me to slight knee bend first (or hip bend) as I descend, so I guess I just 'dropped' without thinking...
I had noticed I had an even worse hip sway only a few months back, it's gotten alot better since in comparison... (i think)

I do think I have a problem with activating my glutes :\ I feel that I have tight ankles and I don't fall back into the heels of my feet as much as I could... How can I over come it? It is simply tight ankles?? or is it a bigger issue??
How wide should the box squat stance be?
I had been doing something similar with lighter weights but without a box. Slow descend down, count to 3 on the bottom and hip drive up. Is that a somewhat equivalent??

Thank you so much btw! Repped

I have done a lot of research into knee caving during squats (was going to do a PhD in the subject at one point!). It can be caused by tight ankles but it is not always the cause and it is not the only cause. Many people can fix this problem simply by putting a heel lift into their shoes - can you raise your heels at all, e.g. wear Olympic lifting shoes, or put tiny weight plates under your heels?

I'd suggest the box squat stance to be as wide as a standard power rack - i.e. your toes should be pointed out slightly a couple of inches away from the power rack sides (if you have this flexibility).

Yeah it sounds like what you were doing was equivalent. The box ensures you HAVE to use your glutes to get back up. Push your knees OUT on the way down and OUT on the way up. This keeps tension in the glutes, which will hopefully help with the knee and hip sway.

Hip sway could be due to having one hip stronger than the other (normal - everyone is asymmetric in some place). Maybe try some single leg work. Also you might have a tight piriformis on one side - so foam roll and stretch the IT band and glute area before squats... and every day if possible.

Lower the weight and focus on slow, controlled box squats. You might even find you need to put the weight down to as low as the 20kg barbell! Keep very tight and upright and keep repping until form breaks down. Do not do these squats with bad form - this exercise is 'perfect practise'.

[izzygrant]

are you training for oly lifting? that is a very olympic squat - high bar, close stance (especially if you say your stance is wider than you are used to). if you are training for oly lifting, box squats aren't really your friend. and oly shoes will really, really help you with this squat style, so you should get some asap unless you plan to switch to low bar.

this isn't really the best angle, but i suspect you may have your elbows sticking too far out behind you, and lose core tightness in the hole which causes a momentary shift forward onto the balls of your feet and then you have to GM the weight up. get shoes, focus on external rotation of the lower leg before the descent which will help keep your hamstrings tight and your knees out, get your elbows under the bar and think about driving your chest up hard out of the bottom. this weight looks ok for heavy 3's but you should definitely be doing some higher rep work with lower weight in order to cement good form. what you were doing before is pause squats and they are excellent for training you to keep tightness in the hole.

external rotation:

[WeedyRainfall]

I notice a few things:

1. You drop quite quickly, can you descent a bit slower?
2. Your knees move in quite a lot.
3. You seem to have asymmetric hip movement, i.e. the right hip seems to ascend before the left

I have had similar problems. Can you try box squatting with a wide stance? This will work on really activating your glutes which will keep your knees out. You should also be slow and controlled lowering down, pause on the box for a second or two, then pull the tummy buttom in, squeeze the glutes and push on your heels to explode up (keep very upright).

1. There is absolutely no need to slow the descent. Every good olympic weightlifter that ATG squats bombs into the hole to generate a bounce.

2. I watched the video like 5 times and i do not see the knees moving in "quite a lot", and not at all on the ascent. at what time in the video do you see this happening?

3. yeah. hips are asymmetric.

Why the hell would you recommend box squats for someone trying to do olympic squats? That is completely nuts. A slow, controlled descent into a box squat is completely NOT going to help this kind of squat.

[izzygrant]

whoa whoa. we don't know for sure she's an olympic lifter. she doesn't even have shoes. her form is good enough that it looks like someone taught her, but she's asking for help on here and doesn't really seem to know what's best for her own squat style. OP should let us know her goals.

i agree that her knees aren't really coming in enough to be a big concern, especially on a close-to-max triple. and it's no good for her to be dive-bombing her squats if she can't stay tight enough to catch the bounce properly and just ends up getting tipped forward. but when her form is a bit tighter, yes, that speed is fine for an oly squat. continuing to do pause squats will help.

OP you might also think about getting a good belt.

[WeedyRainfall]

whoa whoa. we don't know for sure she's an olympic lifter. she doesn't even have shoes. her form is good enough that it looks like someone taught her, but she's asking for help on here and doesn't really seem to know what's best for her own squat style. OP should let us know her goals.

i agree that her knees aren't really coming in enough to be a big concern, especially on a close-to-max triple. and it's no good for her to be dive-bombing her squats if she can't stay tight enough to catch the bounce properly and just ends up getting tipped forward. but when her form is a bit tighter, yes, that speed is fine for an oly squat. continuing to do pause squats will help.

OP you might also think about getting a good belt.

it's probably a safe bet that op is NOT an oly lifter, but she is clearly trying to squat oly style, and she seems to be doing it fairly well. she would be well advised to emulate olympic squatters and disregard powerlifting-style wide stance box squats.

my personal experience with tipping forward tightness is that it is not a physical weakness, but a failure to drive the traps up into the bar. if i am thinking to myself "drive the traps up", i never fold over. if i fail to maintain concentration, i fold over well below maximal loads. just my personal experience, that is my weak point in the squat. but it is just as easy to lose posture on a pause squat as a fast squat if that is the breaking point in form. the bounce is not necessarily the problem. i don't mean to sound argumentative, and pause squats are also great, but i think that the folding over can be solved without slowing down the squat.

[izzygrant]

it's probably a safe bet that op is NOT an oly lifter, but she is clearly trying to squat oly style, and she seems to be doing it fairly well. she would be well advised to emulate olympic squatters and disregard powerlifting-style wide stance box squats.

my personal experience with tipping forward tightness is that it is not a physical weakness, but a failure to drive the traps up into the bar. if i am thinking to myself "drive the traps up", i never fold over. if i fail to maintain concentration, i fold over well below maximal loads. just my personal experience, that is my weak point in the squat. but it is just as easy to lose posture on a pause squat as a fast squat if that is the breaking point in form. the bounce is not necessarily the problem. i don't mean to sound argumentative, and pause squats are also great, but i think that the folding over can be solved without slowing down the squat.

well again it depends on her goals. she does have a nice oly squat, but maybe she wants to be a powerlifter. maybe she just wants a bigger ass. either way, she should know why she's doing what she's doing, and how it serves her goals.

true enough, the traps or lats up cue (probably better than "chest up" as i wrote above) helped me a lot as well once i had built some core strength and learned how to stay tight. it really depends whether her issue is as a result of miscue-ing or weakness or both. she can experiment with the solutions offered and figure it out.

[Zero_Degreez]

1. There is absolutely no need to slow the descent. Every good olympic weightlifter that ATG squats bombs into the hole to generate a bounce.

2. I watched the video like 5 times and i do not see the knees moving in "quite a lot", and not at all on the ascent. at what time in the video do you see this happening?

3. yeah. hips are asymmetric.

Why the hell would you recommend box squats for someone trying to do olympic squats? That is completely nuts. A slow, controlled descent into a box squat is completely NOT going to help this kind of squat.

This was just my personal views and experience, this is a forum where everyone can give answers. I was just trying to be helpful.

[kikichenkov]

I have done a lot of research into knee caving during squats (was going to do a PhD in the subject at one point!). It can be caused by tight ankles but it is not always the cause and it is not the only cause. Many people can fix this problem simply by putting a heel lift into their shoes - can you raise your heels at all, e.g. wear Olympic lifting shoes, or put tiny weight plates under your heels?

I'd suggest the box squat stance to be as wide as a standard power rack - i.e. your toes should be pointed out slightly a couple of inches away from the power rack sides (if you have this flexibility).

Yeah it sounds like what you were doing was equivalent. The box ensures you HAVE to use your glutes to get back up. Push your knees OUT on the way down and OUT on the way up. This keeps tension in the glutes, which will hopefully help with the knee and hip sway.

Hip sway could be due to having one hip stronger than the other (normal - everyone is asymmetric in some place). Maybe try some single leg work. Also you might have a tight piriformis on one side - so foam roll and stretch the IT band and glute area before squats... and every day if possible.

Lower the weight and focus on slow, controlled box squats. You might even find you need to put the weight down to as low as the 20kg barbell! Keep very tight and upright and keep repping until form breaks down. Do not do these squats with bad form - this exercise is 'perfect practise'.

Woah woah! Firstly thank you so much for such a detailed answer! You may have hit the nail on the head with the tight piriformis which is something that I've been trying to figure out for a few months! Initially I thought it was tight hip flexors, but then after I stretch it out there always feels like there is some kind of tension/knot deeper that I can't seem to stetcu out. It feels like it could be because of an internally rotated femur? or could I be paranoid? (It could kind of make sense because I used to have bow legs...)

I will get on to box squatting ASAP!
Yes I have always been very diligent on practicing perfect form or aiming for my best. Recently I tripped down stairs and bruised my back so this is my first week back and it has bothered me so much that I've finally decided it was time to ask for some educated opinions, so thank you again!
(I would rep but apparently I am repped out)

[kikichenkov]

are you training for oly lifting? that is a very olympic squat - high bar, close stance (especially if you say your stance is wider than you are used to). if you are training for oly lifting, box squats aren't really your friend. and oly shoes will really, really help you with this squat style, so you should get some asap unless you plan to switch to low bar.

this isn't really the best angle, but i suspect you may have your elbows sticking too far out behind you, and lose core tightness in the hole which causes a momentary shift forward onto the balls of your feet and then you have to GM the weight up. get shoes, focus on external rotation of the lower leg before the descent which will help keep your hamstrings tight and your knees out, get your elbows under the bar and think about driving your chest up hard out of the bottom. this weight looks ok for heavy 3's but you should definitely be doing some higher rep work with lower weight in order to cement good form. what you were doing before is pause squats and they are excellent for training you to keep tightness in the hole.

external rotation:

I'm not really training for anything, just lifting for fun! I've only been loading the bar and taking this more seriously the past 8 months so I haven't really thought about buying shoes... I only squat atg since I found regular squats weren't challenging enough and because I had a few musculoskeletal imbalances it was a good decision I didn't start loading the bar early on. I was thinking of lowering weights and upping reps but because I've been healing from small injuries I felt that maybe I can manage and strive for better form with the same weights next week or something idk.

[kikichenkov]

...we don't know for sure she's an olympic lifter. she doesn't even have shoes. her form is good enough that it looks like someone taught her, but she's asking for help on here and doesn't really seem to know what's best for her own squat style. OP should let us know her goals.

i agree that her knees aren't really coming in enough to be a big concern, especially on a close-to-max triple. and it's no good for her to be dive-bombing her squats if she can't stay tight enough to catch the bounce properly and just ends up getting tipped forward. but when her form is a bit tighter, yes, that speed is fine for an oly squat. continuing to do pause squats will help.

OP you might also think about getting a good belt.

Ooot oot thank you! That is reassuring to know! When I first started I was shown how to do basic lifts once, then I was set out into the wild to fend for own (basically). I read a lot of articles, forums and books (though first time posting). It's kind of hard to find reliable and related info on ATG squatting because everyone seems to have their own style. i.e. Bounce/no bounce, ok to butt wink a little/not ok etc etc. As previously stated I lift for fun, main goal is to improve overall health, keep good diet, maintain growth in strength over time.

Do I have to work on my core strength more?? My upper body imo is relatively weaker than my lower body I'm still trying to figure out why. I am a keen stretcher and foam roller so hopefully I can get to the core of my issues soon.

I'm not really too interested in getting a belt atm (thanks for suggestion though, maybe some day in the future :P)

[kikichenkov]

it's probably a safe bet that op is NOT an oly lifter, but she is clearly trying to squat oly style, and she seems to be doing it fairly well. she would be well advised to emulate olympic squatters and disregard powerlifting-style wide stance box squats.

my personal experience with tipping forward tightness is that it is not a physical weakness, but a failure to drive the traps up into the bar. if i am thinking to myself "drive the traps up", i never fold over. if i fail to maintain concentration, i fold over well below maximal loads. just my personal experience, that is my weak point in the squat. but it is just as easy to lose posture on a pause squat as a fast squat if that is the breaking point in form. the bounce is not necessarily the problem. i don't mean to sound argumentative, and pause squats are also great, but i think that the folding over can be solved without slowing down the squat.

I'll do both (pause squats AND box squats)?!? or would that be counter productive? I think I could probably have my grip a bit closer so I can use my traps more + keep my torso tighter! So thanks, I'll remember to keep it in mind next time! Luckily I've managed to not tip forward (touch wood), I do try to maintain good ankle/general flexibility (whether that may be a big factor or not I'm not sure but it's helped so far)

[izzygrant]

the best thing you could do is get on a decent program. that will tell you what weights you should be using each day and what accessory work, if any, you should be doing. there's no need to do 800 different kinds of squats. there are some stickies in this forum with basic training programs. if you're just lifting for general health it doesn't matter which one you pick. and it is refreshing to see someone squatting to proper depth. if you eventually decide to stop going atg, at least continue going below parallel for the sake of your knees.

your upper body is relatively weaker because you're female. sorry. it sucks. and from watching your video your weight IS shifting forward a little at the bottom, which shoes would help, but if you don't want to get them that's your call and it's not the end of the world. just get stronger overall and things will start fixing themselves.

[kikichenkov]

the best thing you could do is get on a decent program. that will tell you what weights you should be using each day and what accessory work, if any, you should be doing. there's no need to do 800 different kinds of squats. there are some stickies in this forum with basic training programs. if you're just lifting for general health it doesn't matter which one you pick. and it is refreshing to see someone squatting to proper depth. if you eventually decide to stop going atg, at least continue going below parallel for the sake of your knees.

your upper body is relatively weaker because you're female. sorry. it sucks. and from watching your video your weight IS shifting forward a little at the bottom, which shoes would help, but if you don't want to get them that's your call and it's not the end of the world. just get stronger overall and things will start fixing themselves.

I think the program I am following atm is pretty decent (Squats, DL, Ring Dips, Rows, a lot of body weight work etc). My program had been modified due to weak external rotator cuffs; BP, OHP, upright rows etc have been cut out and replaced with ring dips, pull ups and negatives. I've been doing external rotator cuff accessory work as well as core (+Bikram yoga outside of gym) to help with balance + flexibility. However I think it's also time to change things up a bit. I've read the stickies, I've managed to pick up both New Rules of Lifting for Women and New Rules for Lifting. Will give them both a good read and fish out a program (Do you recommend any?). I was thinking of interchanging pause squats and box squats on my active recovery day + tyre flips for conditioning.

I don't foresee it any time soon (they are my fave). I've been to a physiologist and I remember him telling me that I should not be squatting that low because it's not good for my knees which does evoke some concern, but I've seen a handful of guys doing them at my gym and if its an olympic lift shouldn't it be something to strive to be able to achieve? Obviously it may not be everyones goal but I don't think I am going about this like an idiot, so as long as I keep form my knees should be ok (self justification not sure if its factual idc either).

I think it may have been shifting forward since my grip wasn't close enough, wasn't keeping my traps/upper body as tight as I could've. I'll try them again this Sunday and maybe shoot from a different angle so we can have a bit more to work with
I don't snatch and clean or anything (would love to learn) so atm they would be a bit too far of a stretch for one lift, I'm sure I'll get some one day! Yes that seems to be the case! Patience is a virtue