can anyone recommend a program based on a few things?

[jagadzie]

i'm looking for a bulking strength/size program to really whoop me into shape.
i have never stuck to a program of any sort for the past year+ of working out. been lifting heavy since january and need more direction. ready to commit.

i have NROL and NROLFW but the programs won't work for me. i'd love to "make" them work but the reality of that situation is that my gym is busy, each piece in the free weight section is in demand and always being used. if i leave my squat rack to go use the bench press or whatever- the logistics of that will not work. it's not an excuse, just reality. can't dig it.
* i need a program that keeps me in the squat rack until i'm done with the squat rack and will keep me on the flat bench until i'm done with the flat bench, etc.

the one other factor is that i will grow bored with only doing say, 3, 4 or 5 exercises per workout. i need more variety. i am committed, but i know that my will power is not strong enough to restrain myself from doing more exercises. i need a program that has SOME variety (at least 6-8) exercises in it within one trip to the gym. any less and i'll uncontrollably add in more of my own and then there goes the "program".

i am not yet familiar with the 5x5 program but will look in to it if you guys suggest it. just keeping it real- don't mean to be annoying with this question- i know some will say i only need 3 main exercises and should only do that, etc., etc., but i insist upon setting myself up for success and choosing the RIGHT program that will work for me.

TIA for any help!

[KyleAaron]

i'm looking for a bulking strength/size program to really whoop me into shape.
i have never stuck to a program of any sort for the past year+ of working out. been lifting heavy since january and need more direction. ready to commit.
[...]
the one other factor is that i will grow bored with only doing say, 3, 4 or 5 exercises per workout. i need more variety. i am committed, but -

The selected quotes summarise your problem. You have two different goals. Your first goal is to get stronger/bigger, your second goal is to have fun in your workout by doing lots of different things. These goals contradict. You have to choose one. Improving strength (past the complete beginner stage) and having variety is like trying to squat double bodyweight while preparing for a marathon - can't be done. Choose one goal.

I will speak just of getting stronger/bigger, since if all you want in a session is variety and fun you don't need any advice, you can do that yourself. I suggest Zumba.

Consistent effort over time gets results. You must make your efforts consistent.

Your progress because you do more than you did before. You can only do more if you do the same exercises all the time. Today you squat 50kg 3x10, tomorrow you leg press 80kg 4x6, was that more? Less? About the same? Who knows. But if today you squat 50kg 3x10, and tomorrow 55kg 3x10 or 50kg 3x11 or 50kg 4x10, well you know you did more, and are getting stronger.

This is what I suggest.

Routine #1, Bar & plates only - front squat, deadlift, overhead press
Routine #2, Power cage only - back squat, deadlift, overhead press
Routine #3, Power cage & moveable bench - (A) back squat, bent over row, bench press; (B) back squat, deadlift, overhead press. Alternate the two workouts.

I'm not going to write about sets and reps or progression at this point as you probably won't accept even this. You have to decide which is your goal, to get stronger/bigger, or to have fun in your workouts.

You've seen hmotb have the same issue, chopping and changing her workouts and not getting results, on my advice she stuck to a routine, and now she has got results - front squatting around her bodyweight, deadlifting 120% her bodyweight, overhead pressing half her bodyweight. And this has effected a physique change, too.

Now of course she's changed routines again. Whether she'll get results from now on I don't know. She will if she is consistent over time.

To be honest, I think she found getting strong was more fun than doing lots of different exercises every session. I also think that if you're bored in a workout you're not working hard enough. Try allowing 3'00" for each set - loading the bar, unracking it, lifting it for the reps, racking it, resting, everything. If you're still bored, make it 2'30", or even 2'00". Soon you'll be too puffed to be bored.

Consistent effort over time gets results. Consistent effort over time is the most difficult thing in the world. Simple, not easy.

Are you ready to commit to consistent effort over time? We're ready to help you.

i am committed, but -

No buts. Everything before the "but" is bullsht. Yes or no.

[KaraPhoto]

i am committed, but i know that my will power is not strong enough to restrain myself

Then you're not committed.

It really is that simple - and the reason I can say that is because I know I do the same thing sometimes. I have had to learn in myself that anytime I can follow the sentence with "but..." then I'm not really committed. It's taken me a long time to learn in myself the difference between a REAL reason and an excuse ... and it kinda sucks to know I'm making excuses.

But there you have it. If you really are committed, you'll find a way to work around the "buts".

[jagadzie]

The selected quotes summarise your problem. You have two different goals. Your first goal is to get stronger/bigger, your second goal is to have fun in your workout by doing lots of different things. These goals contradict. You have to choose one. Improving strength (past the complete beginner stage) and having variety is like trying to squat double bodyweight while preparing for a marathon - can't be done. Choose one goal.

I will speak just of getting stronger/bigger, since if all you want in a session is variety and fun you don't need any advice, you can do that yourself. I suggest Zumba.

Consistent effort over time gets results. You must make your efforts consistent.

Your progress because you do more than you did before. You can only do more if you do the same exercises all the time. Today you squat 50kg 3x10, tomorrow you leg press 80kg 4x6, was that more? Less? About the same? Who knows. But if today you squat 50kg 3x10, and tomorrow 55kg 3x10 or 50kg 3x11 or 50kg 4x10, well you know you did more, and are getting stronger.

This is what I suggest.

Routine #1, Bar & plates only - front squat, deadlift, overhead press
Routine #2, Power cage only - back squat, deadlift, overhead press
Routine #3, Power cage & moveable bench - (A) back squat, bent over row, bench press; (B) back squat, deadlift, overhead press. Alternate the two workouts.

I'm not going to write about sets and reps or progression at this point as you probably won't accept even this. You have to decide which is your goal, to get stronger/bigger, or to have fun in your workouts.

You've seen hmotb have the same issue, chopping and changing her workouts and not getting results, on my advice she stuck to a routine, and now she has got results - front squatting around her bodyweight, deadlifting 120% her bodyweight, overhead pressing half her bodyweight. And this has effected a physique change, too.

Now of course she's changed routines again. Whether she'll get results from now on I don't know. She will if she is consistent over time.

To be honest, I think she found getting strong was more fun than doing lots of different exercises every session. I also think that if you're bored in a workout you're not working hard enough. Try allowing 3'00" for each set - loading the bar, unracking it, lifting it for the reps, racking it, resting, everything. If you're still bored, make it 2'30", or even 2'00". Soon you'll be too puffed to be bored.

Consistent effort over time gets results. Consistent effort over time is the most difficult thing in the world. Simple, not easy.

Are you ready to commit to consistent effort over time? We're ready to help you.

No buts. Everything before the "but" is bullsht. Yes or no.

hi kyle,
it's not bull **** and i don't have two different goals. my goal, as stated, is to gain strength/size. if i had to pick ONE of those two, it would be size, but as far as i understand it, they kind of go together, correct me if i'm wrong on that. i know it's simple, not easy and that consistent efforts get results. what i don't buy is that to get results, i have to be limited to so few exercises per work out. wanting more exercises does not indicate a lack of commitment. my GOAL is not to have fun during my work out, my goal is to gain strength/size, and i am certain that it can be done by doing more than 3 exercises per work out. if you disagree, that's fine, but please respect my opinions and desires as well. no need to talk down to me. direct and without sugarcoating is fine, talking down- really unnecessary. zumba is not what i'm looking for and i think you know that.

i do not have ADD and will stick to a program, but of course, it does have to be the right program. i'm clear about my strengths and weaknesses and identify that i'd like more exercises than 3. this is not necessarily problematic. i understand that it will require more TIME in the gym which to some people will not make sense- that's fine. the beauty of it is that they can do what they want and what works for them and i'll do what works for me.

everyone is different, and while your expertise and knowledge takes many people very far, i know myself and know that i simply do need to do more exercises. that's really all there is to it. i can reap the benefits of a more muscular physique by doing other programs that have more exercises, i know it's possible- that is why i was asking for input or help to begin with.

when i say this: i am committed, but i know that my will power is not strong enough to restrain myself from doing more exercises.
i am setting myself up for success because i know myself. simple as that.
i respect your knowledge and helpfulness to others on the board and i know that you had hmotb doing the 3 exercises that you mention here. (I think.) Routine #2, Power cage only - back squat, deadlift, overhead press.
that is wonderful for her and i am impressed and inspired by her progress. i am simply looking for something slightly different. not zumba.

[jagadzie]

Then you're not committed.

It really is that simple - and the reason I can say that is because I know I do the same thing sometimes. I have had to learn in myself that anytime I can follow the sentence with "but..." then I'm not really committed. It's taken me a long time to learn in myself the difference between a REAL reason and an excuse ... and it kinda sucks to know I'm making excuses.

But there you have it. If you really are committed, you'll find a way to work around the "buts".

wow, i'm not sure how else to get my point across. NROL - more than a few exercises. would be great, if i had access to more free pieces of equiptment, benches, squat racks, or if my gym weren't so busy and i could jump from one to the other. would be fabulous, but i don't. i am seeking a program that has variety, but one in which the various exercises can be "grouped" into one area/piece of equipment. (if that makes sense.)

so no, i am indeed committed, TO THE RIGHT PROGRAM. does that make sense?
would it be easier to accept my statement if i instead said: i am committed, and i know that my will power is not strong enough to restrain myself because i would like to do more than 3 exercises with the routine that i follow.
if i use the word "and" instead of the word "but"?!

[KaraPhoto]

so no, i am indeed committed, TO THE RIGHT PROGRAM. does that make sense?
would it be easier to accept my statement if i instead said: i am committed, and i know that my will power is not strong enough to restrain myself because i would like to do more than 3 exercises with the routine that i follow.
if i use the word "and" instead of the word "but"?!

Hahha. No, playing semantic games doesn't change the fact. I've tried that one with myself too. If you don't have enough will power to stick with a good program, then you're not committed. Period. The end.

You're using "the right program" as an excuse. The RIGHT program for what you want is not the program that you WANT to do ... so you're using that as an excuse to say that you just haven't found the "right program". That's circular, BS, and self-justifying.

You keep focusing on NROL like that's the answer. But I'll point out that this is a key difference between REASON and EXCUSE. Reason = a legitimate event or item that causes you to not be able to complete a program - as in a crowded gym that will not let you complete a program as laid out. Excuse = I don't like this program, it bores me, and I won't do it because I don't have enough willpower.

It's one thing to say "I know myself and I know what I will and won't do." That's great. But if you won't do what needs to be done to achieve your goals, then ... well ... there's nothing much anyone else can do for you until you're ready to quit making excuses and commit.

Edited: If i told you that my goal was to pay off my credit card and I was committed to that goal, but I didn't have enough willpower to resist buying a new pair of shoes every payday ... you'd call BS on me, wouldn't you? You'd say "If you really wanted to pay off your credit card, you'd give up the shoes for now." Same goes .. if you really WANTED to build strength, you'd do what was boring or not fun. But you're not committed yet. When you are, you won't make excuses (and I'd quit buying shoes! )

[jagadzie]

Hahha. No, playing semantic games doesn't change the fact. I've tried that one with myself too. If you don't have enough will power to stick with a good program, then you're not committed. Period. The end.

You're using "the right program" as an excuse. The RIGHT program for what you want is not the program that you WANT to do ... so you're using that as an excuse to say that you just haven't found the "right program". That's circular, BS, and self-justifying.

You keep focusing on NROL like that's the answer. But I'll point out that this is a key difference between REASON and EXCUSE. Reason = a legitimate event or item that causes you to not be able to complete a program - as in a crowded gym that will not let you complete a program as laid out. Excuse = I don't like this program, it bores me, and I won't do it because I don't have enough willpower.

It's one thing to say "I know myself and I know what I will and won't do." That's great. But if you won't do what needs to be done to achieve your goals, then ... well ... there's nothing much anyone else can do for you until you're ready to quit making excuses and commit.

i'm only mentioning NROL because it's all i know right now, it's all i've read and am familiar with, and i know it's a respected program that consists of a few more exercises per visit to the gym, which i'd love, if the logistics worked.
i agree with your explanation of what a reason is, but am still not understanding why you (and kyle) are saying that i can't succeed unless i do a program that bores me. is a program that has more exercises in it always bound to fail the trainee? seriously? or... what am i missing?

i will do what needs to be done to achieve my goals, but seriously- simple question-- is there a respected program that you know of that offers more exercises per work out and kind of keeps the trainee in the same "area" while that "area" is needed? that is all i'm looking for- don't need to keep going back and forth about my level of commitment or whether or not i'm making excuses. i'm not, and if you want to keep saying i am, that's fine - i'm moving on from that and simply looking for an answer or advice on what program would fit what i'm looking for.

[KyleAaron]

hi kyle,
it's not bull **** and i don't have two different goals. my goal, as stated, is to gain strength/size. if i had to pick ONE of those two, it would be size, but as far as i understand it, they kind of go together, correct me if i'm wrong on that.

Yes, strength and size go together, so they are effectively one goal.

But you stated a second goal. You wanted variety. You've not said "this is my goal", but you've stated it as a condition of your training - so it's a goal, just as much as if you said "I only want to use a barbell" or "I want to be vegetarian" or whatever.

Sometimes goals complement each-other, sometimes they clash. Strength and variety beyond the absolute beginner stage clash. Sorry.

my GOAL is not to have fun during my work out, my goal is to gain strength/size, and i am certain that it can be done by doing more than 3 exercises per work out. if you disagree, that's fine, but please respect my opinions and desires as well.

More than 3 exercises in a workout for someone at your stage will mean your effort is spread over several different exercises. Which means slower or stalled progress.

I don't respect your opinion, because it's an uninformed opinion. As Harlan Ellison said, we are not entitled to our opinions, we are entitled to our informed opinions.

You are not informed by qualifications or experience. If you'd done a heap of different exercises each session and could deadlift 300lbs, awesome, you have experience, your opinion of how to get strong matters. If you'd been taught and certified by someone with a system of a variety of exercises and that person's system had got other people strong, awesome, you have qualifications, your opinion of how to get strong matters.

You have not got strong, and have not been taught by anyone who got other people strong, so your opinion of how to get strong doesn't matter. I am sorry to put it bluntly but there it is. Your opinion on how to get strong is about as useful as my opinion on how to deal with menstruation. I lack the experience, nor have I qualifications to make up for that lack of experience, not being an ob-gyn. So I stay silent on that topic, and defer to the knowledge of others.

Now, you can want variety. That's fair enough. What your goals are is entirely up to you. But you're not entitled to an opinion on whether that'll be effective. You have to defer to the knowledge of others.

It won't be effective. Sure, someone who's completely sedentary and then takes up weight training with a heap of different exercises, that'll make them stronger. But they'll reach a limit.

everyone is different, and while your expertise and knowledge takes many people very far, i know myself and know that i simply do need to do more exercises.

You don't need more exercises any more than you need to deadlift 300lbs or whatever. Those are desires, or goals.

And those goals clash. Sorry. You have to choose one. It's a bummer but there it is.

You want to go from A to B, but you don't want to take the road between A and B, you want to take some other road. I respect your autonomy, your right to purse the goals you choose in the manner you choose. You can take any road you want, but don't be surprised if it doesn't take you where you want to go.

A trainer or coach is like a taxi driver. We figure out where you are now, and where you want to go - and then tell you the quickest and safest way from A to B. The difference is that the passenger has to get out and push - but it's the trainer/coach doing the driving, because they know the way. You're insisting that no, you know the way - the problem is that the road you want to take will only take you away from where you say you want to go.

I've helped get women strong. That's part of my job.

You can't argue with results. But some people will try anyway. These are the people who'll still be on the forum a year from now wondering what to do.

[ilovethe80s]

Have you looked at HST? THe first time I ever got any significant muscle was with that program - I had 50% increases in some lifts the first time around. You'll need the barbell/ rack for your squats deads and then you can get out of there so the next person can use it. (I just did the sample workout they provided but skipped the traps/ abs in favor of extra squats). That workout is full body 3x per week, I actually found the routine enjoyable, you're increasing weight the whole time, and its only a couple of sets per exercise - so (hopefully) no boredom.

Looking at 5x5 - it looks ike a great program but not sure it fit what you want - did you see the routine? Check here (halfway down page):
http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5...ining-program/
5 exercises. 5 reps. And I know you said you wanted to spend more time in the gym - unless you are resting a looooong time after each set, it looks like this program is going to get you in and out fairly quickly? Most mass gaining routines are of that nature though, you go in and then get the heck out of there so you can recuperate.


K girl so that being said, (and I think this is exactly what you DIDN'T want), just sticking to the basics seems to build mass and overall strength better than throwing in too much variety. So how can we make this fun for you? lol. Seriously, try anything you can - make a playlist, keep a workout log, anything you can to stay motivated and make yourself like the simpler workouts, because they will get you to your goal quicker.

I get way more out of 6 sets of deadlifts that I would out of 2 deadlifts, 2 hamstring curls and 2 butt blaster thingies. The more I cut back on the number of different exercises I do, the better I seem to fare. This is after over a decade of training and many periods of spinning my wheels.

I split and this works well for me: Start with a major exercise for whatever muscle groupyou are targeting (squat, deadlift, press etc). 6 sets. Increase weight/ lower reps each set. If I had to do 6 straight sets of 10 trust me, I'd be bored as heck but when you are down to like 3 and 2 reps, its anything but. After that, the world is your oyster. Pick whatever body weight or accessory exercise for the same body part to go after that (dips, push ups, etc) for 4 sets. Then another exercise if you like, to drive the point home. Or even just the same exercise you started with but less weight/ more reps or a different tempo. That's it. I think you naturally gravitate toward the same accessory exercises for at least a few weeks at a time, which is good enough to keep you interested and gage your progress. But keep that first major exercise the same.

When I am doing my squats or deads or whatever in the beginning I want to cry by like the 4th set, like 'omg is this over yet?? kill me.' and am desperate to get to to the next exercise. That's how I know where the magic is happening lol. But that would be something like 3 total exercises - exactly what you don't want (but I am still trying to convince you, bc it does work out well for the goal you have in mind


Kyle Aaron's routine above sounds great. Maybe you could do that but vary your stances on your deadlifts/ squats for variation? I'd say if you want more variety, to add on to it, but I have found that when you start adding too much stuff, your *important* lifts suffer. Definitely don't want to do that if trying to gain.

Ok so to summarize, I'd check out HST, I think you'll make awesome gains on that (though it is not a program you stay on for a long time). Other than that, the simpler routines will give you what you are looking for, but if they aren't going to be enough variety for you - honestly, I would look into getting an olympic weight set and a few dumbbells for home and doing your New Rules there if that program seemed to have what you want. Or speak to your gym about getting some new equipment. Post back on what you choose

[velveteenrabbit]

take a look at all pro's beginner program in the workout section. it's full body, 7 moves, 3 days a week, but each day is different- either the weights or the reps change, so you have easier and harder days and weeks. All the changes make it feel like it has more variety. I find it easy to get bored too, and wondered if I would with it- so far so good, it's been almost 3 months. part of what I like about it is that I don't have to think about anything, it's already done. You stay on each move for 4 sets before you move on. It takes me 45-60 minutes. It's the only one I've done so I can't compare it, but I know I like it.

[MsMightyMau5]

Wouldn't a really simple solution to the problem be doing a bodypart split. I suggest a 5x per week one.

back
chest
legs
shoulders
arms
off
off

everyday will be different so you won't get bored and you can do 6-8 exercises per bodypart if you want. just limit it to about 3 sets each. remember you want to completely destroy that bodypart b/c you won't work it again for a week.

this is how I've been training and I both enjoy my workout and make great progress. I try'd starting strenght (basically 3 big lifts per day, 3x per week) and both could not stand the repition and my joints (mostly elbows) were killing me from overuse. Also felt like I was neglecting arms, calves, and not getting enough back work. My brother loved it though so its all about personal preference.

For all the people saying that the BIG 3 are the BEST way to progress, I feel thats a very narrow minded view. Besides most pro male bodybuilders and female bodybuilders and figure athletes use split routines.

GL

[juliacheh]

I recommended it a few time before and I'll repeat myself - Total Body Training by Chad Waterbury. The routine is nicely structured, but YOU are the one who picks the exercises from Chad's list. The routine is structured and rather flexible at the same time.
Here is the link.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...lbody_training
Yes, you will gain both size and strength on this routine.

[kfisherx]

Then you're not committed.

It really is that simple - and the reason I can say that is because I know I do the same thing sometimes...

Sigh.. Really Kara??? I mean just because something is true for you does NOT mean it is always 100% true for others. There is nothing wrong with suggesting this as a possible reason but to say it with such certainty is crap. I am looking at OP's abs and thinking to myself that she is probably a bit more committed than you might ever know or be. It may also be that the words she wrote about needing to not do supersets due to her gym being crowded are true. It may also be that she is a bit more athlete than a beginner type book can provide work for. It may also be that she does not yet understand how to lift properly to tire herself out. She may not get the dynamics of how the NROL program works with the variations being more in the reps than the exercises or how to play that game. There are 1000 plus OTHER reasons why someone might be failing a program or program jumping than the one that you personally are experiencing. It is okay to express anecdote but don't assume it applies globally.

The selected quotes summarise your problem. You have two different goals. Your first goal is to get stronger/bigger, your second goal is to have fun in your workout by doing lots of different things. These goals contradict....

Kyle, I have to disagree with you here too and perhaps we are speaking around each other but getting stronger and bigger and needing variation in a program absolutely do not contradict. As a trainer, I think you see that one program does not work for all. I rarely EVER put two people on the same program to grow them. People come to the game in different stages of training, different knowledge base and require different things in general. I grew substantially last year on a program that was extremely varied and high volume. That sort of program suits my style significantly better than NROL or NROL4W. In fact, I too, flunked both of these programs and did not stick with them. Do you think I was uncommitted Kara? I later learned why the programs did not work for me and the reason made sense. Since that time I have adapted programs to fit me that work for me. For a "general population" book they make perfect sense and I regularly recommend them to people who are just starting out. They are a great alternative to beginners making up their own program. It doesn't mean they will work for everyone.

Your arrogance btw is really a tad bit much in this thread. It would be really nice to tone it down just a bit an have a discussion instead of convincing everyone how "right" you are because you train people. In MY gym, beginners get opinions because I know that at this level what really matters is that my clients learn the basics and have fun so that they will stick around a bit.

Pretty much ANY program will get results on someone lifting less than a year... But of course you already know that because you are a trainer....

....just saying....

[kfisherx]

I recommended it a few time before and I'll repeat myself - Total Body Training by Chad Waterbury. The routine is nicely structured, but YOU are the one who picks the exercises from Chad's list. The routine is structured and rather flexible at the same time.
Here is the link.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...lbody_training
Yes, you will gain both size and strength on this routine.

This^^ I always prefer programs where I get to pick. Caveat being that you actually understand what exercises work what body parts of course. If there is a case where he calls out a superset, just do the exercises without alternations. That will matter very little to the grand scheme.

It is possible that you don't really "get" how to workout yet or how to work hard enough. Programs like NROL and NROL4W will most often tire a newer lifter out quite well in and of themselves when done properly. Make sure that you are lifting as heavy as you can when doing the programs.

What is your athletic background? (not lifting but other sports?)

[juliacheh]

This^^ I always prefer programs where I get to pick. Caveat being that you actually understand what exercises work what body parts of course. If there is a case where he calls out a superset, just do the exercises without alternations. That will matter very little to the grand scheme.

Karla, though Chad is a big fan of supersetting, this program is straight sets only.

[sonti]

Have you checked out Max OT? I think Amanda and Kim both did it - I will too once bubs is old enough for me to start working out again

And yes, let's not knock someone's commitment. I don't see a lack of it on here:
http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ja...n=progresspics

But TBH, you might just want to take a real good one and maybe adapt it for your needs (ie. wanting to stay at one station for a while). Might not progress as fast, but it could work.

My personal preference - invest in your own equipment and you can do whatever exercises you want, when you want, in your bra & panties. Cost me a pretty penny (we spent about $7k on top equipment) but it was worth it.

[KyleAaron]

Kyle, I have to disagree with you here too and perhaps we are speaking around each other but getting stronger and bigger and needing variation in a program absolutely do not contradict.

Well, it depends on intensity. Obviously you can get stronger with different exercises every time provided that you're pushing your limits each time. But there are two problems with that. The first is that as you note, people come with different levels of experience, so they won't have a clear idea, "if I lifted X in this exercise, I can lift Y in this other exercise." So their sessions will be up and down in intensity. This is alright if they have a coach or trainer or experienced training partner who can adjust things for them but most people work out on their own.

The second problem is that as I always say, the best workout is the one you stick to, so we have to structure things in a way that maximises the chance the person will stick to it. When they do the same exercises for some months, they can see progress, this encourages them to keep going. When they chop and change it's harder to see progress, they become discouraged and give up. This is especially so if it comes with the above issue, different intensities of workout, which will make progress slow.

As well, one way for a person to judge intensity is to go to failure on their work sets. But you have to be remarkably focused and determined to be able to stand going to failure - or close to it - on all work sets in every session. People don't remember the 100 successful reps, they remember the 6-10 failed reps. And they often feel themselves a failure. So this doesn't help them have a consistent effort over time, they get depressed, miss sessions and so on.

As a trainer, I think you see that one program does not work for all. I rarely EVER put two people on the same program to grow them.

Absolutely, and same here. You have to individualise things, coaching is much more than just a routine or two. But when we're dealing with people online, we rarely know enough to individualise it, so we toss general advice out there. Also jagadzie was asking for routines which she could do in one place in the gym without moving from it. Thus for example squat, deadlift, overhead press, all with barbells in the power cage. Would a leg press be as good as a squat for building strength? Would dumbell lunges? Sure! But then she'd have to step out of the power cage. So I was at least trying to meet her individual wishes...

And yes, let's not knock someone's commitment. I don't see a lack of it on [her progress pics]

She's achieved great things, no doubt about that. The issue isn't her commitment, it's that she has committed herself to incompatible goals. Someone who powerlifts 3 days a week and does marathon training another 3 days a week is committed to being a powerlifter and a marathon runner, but they're not going to achieve either goal, because the goals clash.

For most people past the absolute beginner stage (which jagadzie definitely is), having each workout be different or doing several exercises in each workout is good for the goal of having fun, but bad for the goal of increasing strength. This is different if the person is very good at judging intensity without going to failure, and/or has someone experienced helping them.

[kfisherx]

Well, it depends on intensity. Obviously you can get stronger with different exercises every time provided that you're pushing your limits each time.....

Have you ever read NROL or NROL4W?? THAT Is exactly what these programs advocate. I don't know how else to lift nor do I teach differently. I don't get what you teach but I teach to lift as hard as they can while keeping good form (period).

Well
The second problem is that as I always say, the best workout is the one you stick to, so we have to structure things in a way that maximises the chance the person will stick to it. When they do the same exercises for some months, they can see progress, this encourages them to keep going. When they chop and change it's harder to see progress, they become discouraged and give up. This is especially so if it comes with the above issue, different intensities of workout, which will make progress slow.

I don't get how having a variety of exercises does not fit into a plan to see progress. In my own personal program I switch things up all the time and can still measure progress over the weeks. I don't have to do nothing but deadlifts for my hamstring exercises. I can do SLRD (or any other form of unilateral work), hamstring curls, Romanian Deads, etc. If I do Deads on week (day one) then cycle through the rest of these on my other workout days until I hit DEADS again, I will see gains and be able to measure progress from week to wee (given I lift 4 times a week or more). Arguably this is even a better way of doing a program as you will not only intro trainees to new exercises but by incorporating things like unilateral work, you actually get an overall healthier trainee.

Absolutely, and same here. You have to individualise things, coaching is much more than just a routine or two. But when we're dealing with people online, we rarely know enough to individualise it, so we toss general advice out there.

Funny you say this because the assumptions you make about the OP makes me wonder how you know enough about her to make such strong statements and then to make appeals to your authority as well. Rather than make assumptions and throw out general stuff that may not apply at all, wouldn't it be far better to ask some questions to narrow down or rule out some things? Personally, I have a lot more questions than answers about her situation and I marvel at how you think you know....

Well
She's achieved great things, no doubt about that. The issue isn't her commitment, it's that she has committed herself to incompatible goals. Someone who powerlifts 3 days a week and does marathon training another 3 days a week is committed to being a powerlifter and a marathon runner, but they're not going to achieve either goal, because the goals clash.

You got to freak'n be kidding me here!!! Powerlifting and marathon training ARE incompatible goals but getting stronger and having some variety in your training program are NOT AT ALL incompatible. Again I don't understand why anyone ESP someone who claims to be professional would even begin to suggest this. I have to think that we are talking around each other here....

For most people past the absolute beginner stage (which jagadzie definitely is)...

HUH? Again I question your foundational understanding of things and the OP. She has been working out for a year (doesn't specify what) and only lifting heavy (to her which isn't really heavy btw if you read her other posts) since Jan. I would say that she is pretty darned beginner. In fact I would classify anyone lifting less than 2 years in the beginner group. I can put any non-retarded program together and get a 2 year or less trainee results with the right diet.

[KaraPhoto]

Sigh.. Really Kara??? I mean just because something is true for you does NOT mean it is always 100% true for others. There is nothing wrong with suggesting this as a possible reason but to say it with such certainty is crap. I am looking at OP's abs and thinking to myself that she is probably a bit more committed than you might ever know or be.

Sigh ... really, kfisherx?

Nice of you to question MY commitment when I'm not the one who is repeatedly saying "I'm committed, but .... " Her abs have jack-**** to do with *my* commitment - especially since you have no idea what I might be committed to or what my goals are. But thanks for the slap.

There are 1000 plus OTHER reasons why someone might be failing a program or program jumping than the one that you personally are experiencing.

Absolutely. But I can only respond based on what is posted here. I'm not a mind reader. And when the OP posts "I am committed but I know I won't stick with a program that doesn't meet [insert contradictory goals here]" then I question their true depth of commitment.

You're right, my experience isn't everyone's. I pointed out my own experience to highlight that my comments were not meant to be attacking or hostile - I also have experienced that kind of lack of commitment - not to indicate that my experience was meant to be universal. But based on the OPs comments - both original and follow up - I believe that my statement stands true. She wants something ... but right now not badly enough to suck it up and do what needs to be done to get there.

[KyleAaron]

*shrug*

Karla, you know what I always say: results count. So I've suggested a routine and tried some motivational talk on jagadzie, she's rejected it. Okay, I failed, I got her no results. Usually when trainers and coaches' suggestions are rejected by trainees, we blame the trainees, say they're lazy or stupid. I don't. It's always at least partly the coaches' fault, they couldn't connect in the right way. So okay, I've failed here. Anyone else?

Well, others have offered her routines here, she's not really replied to ilovethe80s or others, perhaps she's considering what they're saying. Maybe they've failed, maybe they'll succeed, I don't know. I hope succeed.

Offer her a routine which lets her stay in one place in the gym for the whole workout, which has the variety she wants, and which will improve her strength. NROLW and that tmuscle thing and so on don't fulfil what she asked for, they either require her to move around the gym or they have not enough variety.

I listened, I responded, I offered help, no good, she said I was wrong, I didn't understand. Okay. Thing is, so far NOBODY has offered her a routine which does all three of letting her stay in one place in the gym for the whole workout, which has the variety she wants, and which will improve her strength. Everyone required her to compromise something. Apparently when I ask her to compromise something (variety), that's bad and wrong and arrogant, when someone else asks her to compromise something (staying in one place in the gym), that's good and right and humbly understanding. Okay. I figured, if you have to ask them to compromise, ask them to compromise something they've control over (like the variety they'll tolerate) rather than something they've no control over (whether equipment is free in the gym for them to wander between). Wrong? Okay.

I've failed, I hope someone else succeeds and jagadzie achieves all her goals. One spot in the gym, variety, improve strength. Results count.

[jagadzie]

update... I have found a program. i read last night's posts, thought on them a bit, and when i checked in earlier toda, was so thankful to see some other great ideas. a very generous, very respected trainer from the board has stepped in and offered expertise and knowledge in a personalized program. it has everything i was looking for and offers a (for me) ideal combination of compound exercises that are achieved through some variety. i am going to run with this for at least 6 months and see where that takes me. thankfully, it will evolve and grow with me and i will try harder and harder to lift more and heavier to always make progress. in the mean time, i am looking in to the programs mentioned here! THANKS to the productive and helpful replies.

* karla- all the reps in the world couldn't thank you enough for understanding a bit where i'm coming from. a few points worth mentioning:
1. yes, i do consider myself a beginner. i just started working out one year ago july, with a trainer that i knew nothing about (didn't know what to ask yet) who put me on a very "girly" program and encouraged me to run a lot. i grew to enjoy running for a few months and the girly weight things he had me doing grew to be more and heavier and harder as i changed them up on my own and i discovered my love for lifting heavier. i was introduced to the free weights section by another trainer in january and have worked on getting better at lifting correctly and heavier and with good form since then.
2. my background is not very athletic at all. pretty sedentary. no formal exercise at all to be honest. just doing the mommy stuff and very casual dog walking here and there. nothing athletic or active really in hs or college- nothing.
3. you are right in that my lifts are NOT heavy yet. to give you an idea of how not-that-heavy my lifts are, today i broke into the 3 digits with my squats. i did my FIRST time going above 95 lbs! i was THRILLED! i did:
85 lbs x 12, 10, 95 lbs x 7, 100 lbs x 8, 105 x 8, 9. alternated fsq and bsq the first 4 sets and then kept on back for the last few.
i can Overhead press 50 lbs for 6-8 reps 3-4 sets, sometimes need some push presses and then focus on the negatives.
i struggle with DL's (i do the start on the ground kind- "regular" dl's?) but am always trying. today i did 95 lbs x 8, 6, felt form giving in lower back so stopped.

and of course, wanting variety in a routine does not contradict having a goal of gaining strength. as a beginner, sometimes even though i'm feeling "confident" that i'm on the right track, asking the right questions, and enjoying the journey- doubt creeps in and i wonder if i'm losing it and am actually totally wasting my time. i appreciate that at least to some people, that is not the case and i'm still doing (at least somewhat!) fine. thank you.

* Sonti- THANK YOU for reminding me of that program. now that you mention it, i do remember reading that amanda used it and has had nothing but great things to say about it. i had forgotten about it but am going to certainly revisit it now. THANKS!

* Julia- thank you for that link! this is the first i have heard of this program and am eager to learn more about it-- HUGE thank you!

* MsMighty- that is a very simple (perhaps even obvious) solution, and i thank you for that! i was really hoping to find something pretty specific outlining exercises to hit all muscles/muscle groups with a nice variety that you suggest here- thanks!

* VR- seven moves, 3 days a week, but different somehow each day- THAT IS very much what i was looking for! had heard of it but not really recalled it nor looked into it yet. huge thanks!

* 80'sfabulous- THANKS for chiming in on your own experience and sharing what's worked for you. hearing this was particularly good for me: I get way more out of 6 sets of deadlifts that I would out of 2 deadlifts, 2 hamstring curls and 2 butt blaster thingies. The more I cut back on the number of different exercises I do, the better I seem to fare.
- it's good to hear that and know that i just need to put MORE in to each exercise... it makes sense and i understand what you mean. thank you for your help. not to mention, i think you're awesome. and clearly- what you are doing has worked fabulously for you.

[kfisherx]

Nice of you to question MY commitment when I'm not the one who is repeatedly saying "I'm committed, but .... " Her abs have jack-**** to do with *my* commitment - especially since you have no idea what I might be committed to or what my goals are. But thanks for the slap.

Absolutely. But I can only respond based on what is posted here. I'm not a mind reader. And when the OP posts "I am committed but I know I won't stick with a program that doesn't meet [insert contradictory goals here]" then I question their true depth of commitment...

There was NO slap to you. Let me translate an OBVIOUS misunderstanding. When I said this statement... "I am looking at OP's abs and thinking to myself that she is probably a bit more committed than you might ever know or be." I am NOT saying that you are fat and therefor are not committed. What that statement means IS that having a 4 or 6 pack abz on a female takes an enormous amount of commitment unless the person is freakishly genetically gifted. Most people (probably even you) do not understand the work that it requires on any personal level. Most woman (potentially even you) will NEVER actually see this on their own bodies. No judgement here about you personally. I don't recommend anyone to get this lean so no judgement to the majority of females who don't have personal experience with ript abz.

You are missing one very important fact in your own pretty harsh judgement to the OP is the point I am trying to make to you. You may not be a mind reader, but you can look a bit into the details before you slap people with accusations. Her AVI tells you that she knows about commitment. She just hasn't found the right program yet. BIG DIFFERENCE and interesting that you feel "slapped" (hurt maybe?) yet feel completely justified in your accusations.

[KaraPhoto]

T "I am looking at OP's abs and thinking to myself that she is probably a bit more committed than you might ever know or be." I am NOT saying that you are fat and therefor are not committed. What that statement means IS that having a 4 or 6 pack abz on a female takes an enormous amount of commitment unless the person is freakishly genetically gifted. Most people (probably even you) do not understand the work that it requires on any personal level. .

Perhaps you should just quit while you're ahead. The little digs about my commitment and understanding are really quite funny ... although way off base.

And no, I'm not hurt or upset. I am sorta vaguely amused at how you disagree by calling into question the commitment/understanding/etc. of whoever you disagree with.

At any rate, it seems the OP has potentially found what she's looking for. Hopefully she'll get the results she wants.

[KyleAaron]

Well done on finding the right routine for you, jagadzie, I hope it gives you great results.

And don't put down your lifts, "heavy" is just another way of saying, "more than I did yesterday."

[KaraPhoto]

And you gotta love people who sling personal insults and negative rep becuase you disagree with them. Name calling is what happens when you can't come up with an intelligent and reasoned disagreement.

[KyleAaron]

Set that aside, KaraCooks. All that matters is that a person who wanted to achieve something has found a way she can do it, and is beginning on the path to it. Results count.

My clients abuse me all the time, so what, so long as they finish the set or sprint or whatever and get results, who cares.

[kfisherx]

... although way off base.
.

1. Explain what is WAY OFF BASE. Is it that you do know what it is like to get that lean or that you don't think it takes HUGE amounts of commitment to get that lean or something else?
2. Please show where there is a personal insult.

And yes I negged you for your attitude in this thread. Both the accusations and the defensiveness not because we disagreed. We have disagreed many, many times in the past.

[Emma-Leigh]

Just letting members in this thread know that there have been reports re inappropriate and rude posts.

I have contacted the members individually - but a reminder to all to be polite when talking to others - regardless of if you agree with them.

Thanks muchly,

Mod-Me.

[ilovethe80s]

update... I have found a program.

* 80'sfabulous- THANKS for chiming in on your own experience and sharing what's worked for you. hearing this was particularly good for me: I get way more out of 6 sets of deadlifts that I would out of 2 deadlifts, 2 hamstring curls and 2 butt blaster thingies. The more I cut back on the number of different exercises I do, the better I seem to fare.
- it's good to hear that and know that i just need to put MORE in to each exercise... it makes sense and i understand what you mean. thank you for your help. not to mention, i think you're awesome. and clearly- what you are doing has worked fabulously for you.

Yay for finding your program! And definitely do not worry about your lifts not being 'heavy', you're doing the right thing making sure that your form is perfect before progressing. I've had many times where I've found myself rocking tons of weight but realized that somewhere along the line in the excitement, the form got off, not going through full range of motion etc. and having to practically start over with lighter weight. You'll get a lot more from using a weight and concentrating on your form than you will herky-jerking some heavy load around for the sake of bigger numbers. Going by your pics, you have a lot more training common sense now, just one year into training, than I did 5 years into training. So in my view, though the numbers you are moving are not 'massive', you are nowhere near beginner level in my mind. And of course the mind-muscle connection - watch your pace, feel the muscle (which it sounds like you're doing) and you'll be pushing more weight in no time. If it makes you feel better you have me beat with the front squat. I just started incorporating the front squats and using 95 pounds for fear of a mishap when I clean the weight lol.

Just found your blog + will be following your progress there as well. LOVE these skinny to strong transformations and yours is already a success. If you've already made it this far, imagine where you'll be in another year. Good luck!

[jagadzie]

Yay for finding your program! And definitely do not worry about your lifts not being 'heavy', you're doing the right thing making sure that your form is perfect before progressing. I've had many times where I've found myself rocking tons of weight but realized that somewhere along the line in the excitement, the form got off, not going through full range of motion etc. and having to practically start over with lighter weight. You'll get a lot more from using a weight and concentrating on your form than you will herky-jerking some heavy load around for the sake of bigger numbers. Going by your pics, you have a lot more training common sense now, just one year into training, than I did 5 years into training. So in my view, though the numbers you are moving are not 'massive', you are nowhere near beginner level in my mind. And of course the mind-muscle connection - watch your pace, feel the muscle (which it sounds like you're doing) and you'll be pushing more weight in no time. If it makes you feel better you have me beat with the front squat. I just started incorporating the front squats and using 95 pounds for fear of a mishap when I clean the weight lol.

Just found your blog + will be following your progress there as well. LOVE these skinny to strong transformations and yours is already a success. If you've already made it this far, imagine where you'll be in another year. Good luck!

you are SO kind! thank you for the encouragement, it means a lot to me! you've been through a lot having so much training under your belt. fwiw, i don't clean my front squat, i walk up to the bar at squat height and just set it up on my body, get it off the rack and squat. no cleaning it... perhaps i should try that?! i can't imagine cleaning such a heavy weight though... i sometimes do it with just 55 little lbs, but a few sets in and THAT is very hard, just doing the clean and down movement. it's awkward for me to "catch" the clean on my deltoids... awward overall exercise for me- gotta work on that. i was following when you were learning about the front squat, so you LOVE it??! fun!

i'm all about the mind muscle connection. most of the time when i say or think "i'm not feeling it" it's in regards to not having that connection... it's so important. it doesn't feel fulfilling either mentally nor physically when i don't have that connection. and when i DO, that's when the magic is happening!!

thanks again for your kind words.