Overtraining: Fact or Fiction?

[BuckSpin]

Stunad,

Your "testimony" is (to me) one of the single best individual posts I have ever read on this site. Repped.....

[stunad260]

Stunad,

Your "testimony" is (to me) one of the single best individual posts I have ever read on this site. Repped.....

Sincerest thanks, buckspin.

[Tyrbolift]

EXACTLY!


.... I think I love you man....

You forgot "(no david cassidy)"

[BuckSpin]

EXACTLY!.... I think I love you man....

I have a 1st date policy........just sayin'

[stunad260]

i have a 1st date policy........just sayin' :d

lol!

[2nd_chance]

Question:

Training > job?
Training > family?

Example: If you incurred a training related injury that caused you to actually miss a day of work, was it worth it?

I can get hit by a bus tomorrow and miss work or die. I'm not gonna worry about a training injury that hasn't happened. I simply can't relate to people who think and plan their lives that way!

[stunad260]

I can get hit by a bus tomorrow and miss work or die. I'm not gonna worry about a training injury that hasn't happened. I simply can't relate to people who think and plan their lives that way!

Thats ok, you can hang out with us anyway

[2nd_chance]

Thats ok, you can hang out with us anyway

Only if you're buying.....

[stunad260]

Only if you're buying.....

DEAL!


Now if only I can convince my wife to let me have my allowance early....

[BuckSpin]

I can get hit by a bus tomorrow and miss work or die. I'm not gonna worry about a training injury that hasn't happened. I simply can't relate to people who think and plan their lives that way!

I agree. Paralysis by analysis leads to being in a rut, and a rut is simply a grave with the ends kicked out...

I'll rephrase my question:

You provided a personal list of training >

What would be your list of training < ?

[BuckSpin]

DEAL! Now if only I can convince my wife to let me have my allowance early....

Our wives apparently know each other....

[2nd_chance]

I agree. Paralysis by analysis leads to being in a rut, and a rut is simply a grave with the ends kicked out...

I'll rephrase my question:

You provided a personal list of training >

What would be your list of training < ?

God
Family, to include providing for them

Close runners up:
Steelers
Seinfeld

[BuckSpin]

God
Family, to include providing for them

Close runners up:
Steelers
Seinfeld

Outstanding.......tried to rep ya but have to spread the wealth some....

[mr_ben]

Question:

Training > job?
Training > family?

training < family
-always

training < job
-training is a passion but job is something that must be done to support the family(if bodybuilding is not a career).

[stunad260]

God
Family, to include providing for them

Close runners up:
Steelers
Seinfeld

You had me at Seinfeld

[liegelord]

This made my morning, love that scene.

"That's perverse."

[anonymous]

A lot of posters in this thread have misrepresented the op's assertion and taken it to extremes.

After he says that he is not referring to people that workout the same bp's too frequently or every day, but thinks a lot of people are afraid of too much volume and limiting themselves by calling it "overtraining," we get people such as yourself saying "you're wrong, going to 1rm everyday IS overtraining."

Topped off with, "and what about if you're "old?"

in the middle of the thread we have someone making claims that there is no such thing as over training and saying he squats a max 6 days a week.

You think there's a possibly I was refering to that?

[Korr]

Which is nice and all, except for most people CNS output can be dampened considerably by life stress as well as training stress. My deads can be up or down almost 100lbs (the dead is pretty much the ideal measure of the state of my CNS) depending on external factors and general overtraining.

Even if it were possible for the average person to progress doing a 1RM squat every day of the week, why on earth would you subject your joints, ligaments and muscles to that damage? Especially when a basic WSB approach would give you exactly the same rate of progress with far less destructive joint loading (changing the loading pattern each session will offset eventual joint damage).

Especially an older lifter who's likely to develop joint damage, muscle scar tissue build up, arthritis and bone spurs even with a typical frequency schedule after lifting for many years.

Don't miss understand me here. I'm not saying one method is better than another. What I'm saying is the concept of overtraining is misunderstood, to the point that I believe that a lot of lifters are holding themselves back and miss opportunities to advance further in their training.

That said, What Louie Simmons has done with WSB is absolutely amazing, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Here's some interesting reading posted by people far smarter than me on high intensity/volume training.

First quote talks about WSB and CNS adaptation.

Actually you CAN do max singles indefinitely. After a while your performance will go down due to a hormonal factor. This factor is actually an adaptive period that happens in the brain's chemistry and NOT the muscles. It has nothing to do with muscular fatigue. (These are the "dark times" Broz speaks about.)

Chemically, it's almost like withdrawl from substance abuse. The "feel good" chemicals in the brain get screwed up until the adaptive period ends. That's why no one ever wants to train, they are cranky, they fell like they are getting sick, etc.

Louie saw this trend (or read about it) and decided to rotate exercises before it happens. If he stuck with that same exercise, "rode it out", eventually the system would adapt and the weights would go back up to previous levels. They'd eventually recover.

His guys are always just on the verge of hitting that point of hormonal change. If they stuck with it, their body would adapt and they would have an increased work capacity for maxing out regularly. That's why they needed to add in GPP workouts. They were never giving themselves a chance to "get in shape" with the barbells alone.

Now, ask yourself why several people ON THIS BOARD are saying that they stuck with the max singles, went through the period I just described, and are now coming back better than ever. They are able to max out more regularly than before. How can this happen if overtraining exists? By this logic, the Bulgarian lifters would never have made any progress because they never switched exercises. As we know, that's just not the case.

Just because Louie Simmons decided to do something does not mean that it is the only correct way to do things.

Personally I know a lot of RAW powerlifting guys (myself included) who never make much progress on WSB because they DO switch lifts so frequently. They are always changing things and when they do go back to the original lift, they find that they didn't gain a thing

Neuro_Doc's original post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...511&postcount=

When you start placing demands on the brain to lift maximum weights every day, it says "oh crap I need to learn how to make and use these chemicals or hes going to kill us"�. So it goes through an adaptive period where it shuts down some functions and tries to upgrade?. These are the "dark times"?.

The main chemical in muscle contraction is SEROTONIN. It actually regulates how HARD the muscle contracts, which is why only the heaviest weights seem to effect our mood, the reason why people shy away from maximal lifting and cower from the imaginary symptoms of overtraining�.

Serotonin just happens to be the main feel good hormone in the body. It directly effects your mood and mental outlook, and willingness to train. Your sleep, appetite, and also effects the cardiovascular system (your heart rate increases when you are supposedly overtrained� - this is why). The serotonin cycle in the brain gets screwed up when drug addicts go into withdrawl (most recreational drugs artificially influence the serotonin pathways, which is why they are so much fun). There are other neurotransmitters which get effected by this (acetylcholine for example), but serotonin is the big one.

So, when the body receives a demand to lift heavy things on a daily basis, the brain shuts down the serotonin receptors to upgrade� them. The brain structure changes take a few days to a few weeks. Changes in individual nerves happen quickly, a few days at most. This is why the dark times� occur. Its the adaptive period thats needed for the brain and body to get to the next higher level�. Natures little joke is obviously making us feel like crap when we are actually improving.

The body is trying to get us to stop the stress so it isnt forced to remodel the whole place, but thats exactly what you want. Thats why its so important to keep pounding away through it all. You want the greatest adaptation to take place.

Guys who are afraid of this response are guys who are lifting because they like the way it makes them feel. If you do lighter workouts, this serotonin is raised, but there is no signal to adapt. You feel "high". Basically lifting weights becomes like a drug. People feel better doing light useless workouts, just like they feel better taking a hit of crack. I think this is why no one wants to try lifting the Bulgarian way. They are addicts.

A scientific reading on CNS adaptation written by Necro-doc. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=314

Plus a good discussion on High Frequency Training, from Glenn Pendlay's board. http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=2373 Where Pendlay a inspiration/founder to what is now called 5x5 training, says that squating 7-9 times a week isn't being pushed too hard.

The first thing is how my ideas changed over time. Years ago as a powerlifter, I thought that anything more than once a week was a little on the crazy side for squatting... twice a week maybe if you werent trying to peak. Now I consider 3 times a week to be low frequency, and coach guys that do 7 to 9 squat workouts some weeks without feeling like they are being pushed all that hard.

[db_ggmm]

Amazing to read this, but help me implement it in real life. What do I do when tendinitis occurs? Eat more? Does that work?

I'm doing Wendler531. If overtraining is bogus, I should scrap the deload week? Just say **** it?

[Headshrink]

Outstanding thread guys. I have had a lot of questions about over training over the past few years and you all have challenged my thinking on the matter.

[Gawar]

Just want to start out by saying, "I'm a noob lifter." This thread has a ton of great information concerning the idea of overtraining. The potential for overtraining is very much real. There is a very fine line between giving it 100% and thrashing yourself. However, I don't think one should be afraid to test ones limits. From the perspective of progression, undertraining can be just as detrimental as overtraining.

Just my .02 cents.

[BuckSpin]

I'm doing Wendler531. If overtraining is bogus, I should scrap the deload week? Just say **** it?

I'll take this one

You need to ask yourself WWJD (What Would Jim Do)

He would take his scheduled deload week, come back a week later in a new cycle with a little more weight on each lift (assuming he hit his 5, 3 & 1) & continue the LONG TERM quest to be more awesome

Of course he would phrase that with a bunch of &^%$#@!, $#@! & #@!! in his reply....

[BuckSpin]

Korr - &^%$#@! awesome post. I learned a TON from that. Repped...

This thread has allowed me to glean a number of pearls. I hope everyone else has been picking up some of the gold in here.....

[Brackneyc]

I'll take this one

You need to ask yourself WWJD (What Would Jim Do)

He would take his scheduled deload week, come back a week later in a new cycle with a little more weight on each lift (assuming he hit his 5, 3 & 1) & continue the LONG TERM quest to be more awesome

Of course he would phrase that with a bunch of &^%$#@!, $#@! & #@!! in his reply....

Well, what does Jim know anyway right. Deload is for pussies.

[stunad260]

Korr - &^%$#@! awesome post. I learned a TON from that. Repped...

This thread has allowed me to glean a number of pearls. I hope everyone else has been picking up some of the gold in here.....

I've been too busy verbally smacking dudes for hatin on the military. I'm friggen exhausted! Anyway, I think I can sum up this whole thread rather neatly:

Overtraining may or may not be real... kinda like bigfoot.

If it IS real then overtraining = bad
Challenging ourselves = good

Challenging ourselves to the point of injury is NOT over training.
Injuring ourselves = bad.

Some of us can train ridiculous amounts.
The rest of us would die.

The only way to know how much you can train is to try.

Rest = good
Free beer = BETTER


Did I miss anything?

[BuckSpin]

Well, what does Jim know anyway right. Deload is for pussies.

LOL...

I often wonder when I read about people going for months & months without a deload if they also apply the same philosophy to their cars/etc and don't change the oil every few thousand miles on SCHEDULE as opposed to "when they feel like it", or get the furnace serviced annually, etc.

[BuckSpin]

Bigfoot isn't real????????????

[stunad260]

Bigfoot isn't real????????????

Thats what the easter bunny said... but they were in an argument at the time.... something to do with the tooth fairy, I dunno, I wasnt listening, a chupacabra was licking my face....

[rangerNY]

This really is a good thread!

Bigfoot notwithstanding, I have to call into question ANYTHING that relies on serotonin to explain ANYTHING at all. Since there has never been a way to measure levels of serotonin (or any neurotransmitter) or receptor activity in a living human brain, theories that are based on serotonin levels and the activity of serotonin receptors, in large part, based on pure speculation.

The fact of the matter is that even people at very large companies that earn billions every year playing in the serotonin sandbox have very little idea of how it all actually works. We don't really know much at all at this point. I have to seriously question anyone that claims to know how training and sertonergic adaptation are related in any real way.

However, 25 years of real world experience with the use of SSRIs (the most popular class of antidepressants) tells us that the human body is absolutely in the business of making neuro-chemical adaptation when required. Those adaptations aren't always for the better, but that's another story. The thing is, the mechanisms of those adaptations really aren't known. We're guessing at best.

So, the theory that the sensations of overtraining are indicators of pending "remodeling" in the nervous and endocrine systems isn't crazy, but its only a theory. Like anything else, one day its proponents will be regarded as genius - or moron. Only time will tell.

[Brackneyc]

LOL...

I often wonder when I read about people going for months & months without a deload if they also apply the same philosophy to their cars/etc and don't change the oil every few thousand miles on SCHEDULE as opposed to "when they feel like it", or get the furnace serviced annually, etc.

Why bother with that. Run them until they break.