Who gets faster A or B?

[secretlifter3]

itt, flaming

athlete A will beat him at the 40 because he is actually practicing sprints, and athlete B will only strengthen the muscles but his body isn't used to it. athlete B is going to get bulkier anyway, correct?

This, exactly.

opinions on this will be prejiduce because we are all lifters and obviously want to think we'd be faster. js lol

Lifters will never be faster than sprinters, it's an illogical statement to ever make.

speed = stride length x stride frequency

its as simple as that... and what one is easier to increase???

You couldn't manually improve stride length by itself without some sort of sacrifice in frequency unless the program was balanced to improve both. There are things like tendon and muscle stiffness which will impact both stride length and frequency. As well as neural efficieny, elastic power, reactivity, etc.
The reason I said lifting only slows you down, is because it dampens your elastic power (just temporarily) and slows down reactivity, as well as overloading the CNS, when the body hasn't learned how to effienctly transfer the new power.

[jdiritto]

its funny this thread refernces elite sprinters so often; there is a reason they have obtained that level and the reality is they could do almost anything and still be there.

There is a saying that as a coach/trainer of elite level athletes, it is your main goal to avoid messing them up. There are many NFL teams that implement training programs eerily similiar to those that top collegiate recruits come out of.. The main goal at elite levels if injury reduction in nature, it doesnt sound fancy or fun, but that is the truth. Injuried athletes don't perform well and an hurt athlete will not be able to benefit from training for performance enhancement.

The real world application is to make average individuals better, not many of us will coach elite olympic level athletes or become one (especially if you find speed training information on BODYBUILDING.com and in my opinion from secretlifter.. his ideologies will train you to have impeccable form and be super slow so everyone can be like wow look at his technique)

To me the improvement of sporting skill of almost everyone is combination of strength and flexiblity, plus all the other factors relating to the specificity of their sport (metabolic conditioning and limb importance based). Teaching speed mechanics is simple and takes a few weeks at most, possibly more if they have previously internalized faulty biomechanics and they are at an older training age.

edit: Teaching speed mechanics may take even longer, if the individual lacks the basic strength and coordination to facilitate such neural adaptations... this would be corrected with strengh training.

After that point speed training is merely a means to provide reinforcement of optimal mechanics so while in competition and training they are not required to cognitively focus on such and can truly begin to enhance and maximize their movement patterns - beit sprinting, jumping, throwing or a unique combination of each outside of the T&F world. In the disciplines of track and field speed training takes on the roll of primary sporting practice, as track and field lacks other components that must be developed (hand eye coordination, game time strategies, etc).

Anyone/everyone can get stronger, which will enhance the rate of force development/power - most can improve flexiblity as well, increasing the range of motion available at involved joints so they can apply said force over a longer duration. and yes, to me this even applies at elite levels. Fine tuning mechanics isn't going to do a whole lot when you already run some of quickest times in the world. I am not saying get trong like competitive powerlifter, olympic weightlifter , or strength-power based athlete, I am merely saying stronger in relation to their current state of being. And remember strength does not necessarily equate to size, as it is important for those primarily engaged in cyclic duration activities to carry relatively small torsos, but still, strength and power play critical roles in their performance (study some of verkhoshnsky's work - RIP)

Lifters will never be faster than sprinters, it's an illogical statement to ever make.

You clearly are not familiar with the sport of american football and the training involved at high levels.

Yes, I know they rarely hit top speed in sport or training due to the bioenergetic demands and the fact their coaches (unlike you) know what they are doing, but I assure you if Chris Johnson decided the Titans weren't going to pay him 20million this year he could train like a tracker for a few weeks/months and be extremely competitive. It's a shame it does not work very well vice-versa...



again, I can not state how important I feel it is for you secretlifter to read verkhoshansky... you will be amazed at the fact he prescribes (gasp) resistence training for all level track and field athletes, with obvious progressions built in from youth to olympic levels...course, I guess he isn't nearly as good of an expert on the subject as you are - I've never seen him author any Q&A threads on bodybuilding.com =(

[secretlifter3]

its funny this thread refernces elite sprinters so often; there is a reason they have obtained that level and the reality is they could do almost anything and still be there.

There is a saying that as a coach/trainer of elite level athletes, it is your main goal to avoid messing them up. There are many NFL teams that implement training programs eerily similiar to those that top collegiate recruits come out of.. The main goal at elite levels if injury reduction in nature, it doesnt sound fancy or fun, but that is the truth. Injuried athletes don't perform well and an hurt athlete will not be able to benefit from training for performance enhancement.

The real world application is to make average individuals better, not many of us will coach elite olympic level athletes or become one (especially if you find speed training information on BODYBUILDING.com and in my opinion from secretlifter.. his ideologies will train you to have impeccable form and be super slow so everyone can be like wow look at his technique)

To me the improvement of sporting skill of almost everyone is combination of strength and flexiblity, plus all the other factors relating to the specificity of their sport (metabolic conditioning and limb importance based). Teaching speed mechanics is simple and takes a few weeks at most, possibly more if they have previously internalized faulty biomechanics and they are at an older training age.

edit: Teaching speed mechanics may take even longer, if the individual lacks the basic strength and coordination to facilitate such neural adaptations... this would be corrected with strengh training.

After that point speed training is merely a means to provide reinforcement of optimal mechanics so while in competition and training they are not required to cognitively focus on such and can truly begin to enhance and maximize their movement patterns - beit sprinting, jumping, throwing or a unique combination of each outside of the T&F world. In the disciplines of track and field speed training takes on the roll of primary sporting practice, as track and field lacks other components that must be developed (hand eye coordination, game time strategies, etc).

Anyone/everyone can get stronger, which will enhance the rate of force development/power - most can improve flexiblity as well, increasing the range of motion available at involved joints so they can apply said force over a longer duration. and yes, to me this even applies at elite levels. Fine tuning mechanics isn't going to do a whole lot when you already run some of quickest times in the world. I am not saying get trong like competitive powerlifter, olympic weightlifter , or strength-power based athlete, I am merely saying stronger in relation to their current state of being. And remember strength does not necessarily equate to size, as it is important for those primarily engaged in cyclic duration activities to carry relatively small torsos, but still, strength and power play critical roles in their performance (study some of verkhoshnsky's work - RIP)



You clearly are not familiar with the sport of american football and the training involved at high levels.

Yes, I know they rarely hit top speed in sport or training due to the bioenergetic demands and the fact their coaches (unlike you) know what they are doing, but I assure you if Chris Johnson decided the Titans weren't going to pay him 20million this year he could train like a tracker for a few weeks/months and be extremely competitive. It's a shame it does not work very well vice-versa...



again, I can not state how important I feel it is for you secretlifter to read verkhoshansky... you will be amazed at the fact he prescribes (gasp) resistence training for all level track and field athletes, with obvious progressions built in from youth to olympic levels...course, I guess he isn't nearly as good of an expert on the subject as you are - I've never seen him author any Q&A threads on bodybuilding.com =(

I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about. You make reference to technique whenever you mention sprinting.... where did you get this idea that the main goal of sprinting is to develop technique???
The purpose of sprinting, is neural adaptation to running fast. What are you really trying to say?

And I said lifters will never be faster than sprinters, do you have a problem understanding english? Name me a few guys who can beat sprinters off of lifting only (relatively equal level), cause you apparently disagree with that statement I made.


I didn't actually started making reference to elite athletes at the start, someone else did and I went on with that discussion.
However, you then used an elite athlete as an example, and NFL/CFL (proffesional american football) as an example. If the primary goal is guys aged 15-20 (on this forum), then that's what the training is aimed at.

"After that point, speed training is a way of find tuning mechanics."
Buddy, you have no f*ckin clue what you're talking about (srs), you can keep insulting me and say you do, but you should perhaps back track a bit and realize everything you're saying is coming off crap and a lack of understanding of primary speed development.

You can continue giving your 15-20 year olds 5x per week lifting, agility drills and the typical once per week 10-20 yard sprints, good luck with that.

"His methods will train you to be slow" (secretlifter3)

K buddy, that makes sense, because my method involves training speed 3x per week, and sprinting like that with plyos/lifting, is going to make you slower Makes perfect sense.... (/sarcasm)


I've also read a lot on Verkhoshansky.

http://www.adarq.org/forum/performan...?boardseen#new

[madeira17]

So after spending a lot of time reading all these posts can somebody explain to me a nice routine M-Sunday to help me improve my acceleration. I can squat about 160lbs and bench about 180 and I run about a 4.6 40. I am 150lbs 5"10 and about 11% body fat. I now have access to any training equipment including a soccer field and a gym. Thanks very much and like some of the posts have said I do not want to run a 100 yard dash in 9 seconds I want to increase my acceleration to about 40-60 yards from a slow jog/start.

[secretlifter3]

So after spending a lot of time reading all these posts can somebody explain to me a nice routine M-Sunday to help me improve my acceleration. I can squat about 160lbs and bench about 180 and I run about a 4.6 40. I am 150lbs 5"10 and about 11% body fat. I now have access to any training equipment including a soccer field and a gym. Thanks very much and like some of the posts have said I do not want to run a 100 yard dash in 9 seconds I want to increase my acceleration to about 40-60 yards from a slow jog/start.

I will wait on some other guys to chip in and answer here. Would like to see what other people in this forum have to offer.

[labradarep]

Only lifting without running will not lead to an increase in performance unless the athlete is a 10 year old or someone with no training age at all.

You're correct on that, and that's why I said there's two reasons he got faster after the lifting. The second reason, is his CNS was basically given "full" attention to the speed/jumping if you know what I mean. Lifting heavy can hold you back temporarily from maximizing your speed.

You are mis understanding me. I am not implying that you only lift. I am suggesting that lifting + sport specific practice/training (in this case sprinting) will develop the better athlete in the long run.

And no IMHO you are completely incorrect when you say you can develop to be your very best without proper weight/strength training. (this includes body weight, olympic lifting, plyo's Speed strength , starting strength, explosive strength, Reative strength(aka: Plyometrics), Relative strength, optimal strength, etc....). You need to train the strength qualities of each specific sport and progress from slow speed strength up to reative strength. GPP will keep the force-time curve stationary. Slow speed strength training(Hypertrophy) will move the force-time curve to the right. (This phase will make the athlete slower but it is teaching the body to become strong through the recruitment of HTMU's. Then subsequent training phases like Functional Hypertrophy, Max strength & conversion to power (+ maintenance of power & max strength) will move the force time curve to the left. The result being an increase in neural efficiency & faster firing rates of HTMU. Leading to faster, stronger athletes. Increases in max strength are vital in being able to increase power on a consistent , year to year basis. If you do not get stronger you will not get more powerful. Without strength training you can become more powerful , but there is a limit without becoming stronger.

As a strength coach you do not have to be a sport coach, yes you have to understand movement, but you do not have to be able to coach drills in every sport to understand how to plan an effective strength training program.

The athlete who can put more force into the ground will be the faster runner.

[Logical95]

The way I see it is this......my example would be to look at American Football players....mostly corners and receivers.....who are usually tall and skinny.....guys like Ochocinco, D. Revis, Asomugha, Steve Smith (on Panthers), and Randy Moss....etc etc...

They are all extremely fast, quick, and have track star speed....4.4 or better most of them....

Ochocinco is 6'1, 193........Steve Smith is even smaller.....5'9 and 185.....Moss is 6'4 but he's only like 205 or 210.....

BUT, I do not see them squatting 500 pounds or Power cleaning 400 pounds in their offseason workouts....Randy Moss and Ochocinco are twigs they can probably barely get up 400 on the squat, if that....

From what I have seen, most of their workouts concentrate on sprint work, plyometrics, agility, flexibility and endurance....

So, I do not think weight training is totally necessary to be fast......its genetics and from that point on channeling those genetics through sprint work and plyos.....

[jdiritto]

using your numbers above, ochocinco is squatting double his bodyweight.. remember, he isn't a powerlifter, he is a football player; not a powerlifter -- the goal is to development maximal strength and an insane rate of force production in addition to the necessary hypertrophy and muscular endurance per the individuals sporting requirements


Props to Dan Brown for understanding sport performance training

I believe secretlifter thinks once you touch a barbell, you completely stop all other forms of training because you are then a "lifter" or something..

and yes, weight training is not necessary to be fast.. but to become the fastest you can physiologically become some means of muscular development with the end goal of maximal strength and power production is required. This is typically easiest implemented through resistence training (quickest means of tracking volume and intensity over the annual training plan).

Why be fast if you can be faster?

[Logical95]

What I am saying is that you do not need to push heavy weight around to be fast.....it might help, but it's not necessary.....does it look like Ochocinco or Randy Moss can squat or deadlift 400 lbs? I personally do not think so......

And everybody is always claiming you need to "Squat to get faster" or "Squat to have a high vertical" or "Squat to increase GH and testosterone to get bigger" or whatever.....the fact is if you put on said mass and hypertrophy, you are going to get SLOWER....Bc you are carrying around and running with more weight....

The guys that really impress me, even more so than Usain Bolt, are the bigger NFL receivers like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and Brandon Marshall......they are all 6'4 and 6'5 and 225-230 and still run 4.4's or lower......

Now thats impressive!!

[madeira17]

So after spending a lot of time reading all these posts can somebody explain to me a nice routine M-Sunday to help me improve my acceleration. I can squat about 160lbs and bench about 180 and I run about a 4.6 40. I am 150lbs 5"10 and about 11% body fat. I now have access to any training equipment including a soccer field and a gym. Thanks very much and like some of the posts have said I do not want to run a 100 yard dash in 9 seconds I want to increase my acceleration to about 40-60 yards from a slow jog/start.

Still no advice on how to set up a routine. I trust in you guys more than myself and reading a bunch of stuff on the internet. What do you guys think?

[secretlifter3]

You are mis understanding me. I am not implying that you only lift. I am suggesting that lifting + sport specific practice/training (in this case sprinting) will develop the better athlete in the long run.

Ya I did isuderstad you there, my mistake. Specific training + strength = best results.

And no IMHO you are completely incorrect when you say you can develop to be your very best without proper weight/strength training. (this includes body weight, olympic lifting, plyo's Speed strength , starting strength, explosive strength, Reative strength(aka: Plyometrics), Relative strength, optimal strength, etc....). You need to train the strength qualities of each specific sport and progress from slow speed strength up to reative strength. GPP will keep the force-time curve stationary. Slow speed strength training(Hypertrophy) will move the force-time curve to the right. (This phase will make the athlete slower but it is teaching the body to become strong through the recruitment of HTMU's. Then subsequent training phases like Functional Hypertrophy, Max strength & conversion to power (+ maintenance of power & max strength) will move the force time curve to the left. The result being an increase in neural efficiency & faster firing rates of HTMU. Leading to faster, stronger athletes. Increases in max strength are vital in being able to increase power on a consistent , year to year basis. If you do not get stronger you will not get more powerful. Without strength training you can become more powerful , but there is a limit without becoming stronger.

Here, you misunderstood me.


I never said strength training isn't needed, it IS needed (in the variety of forms it's given) to maximise potential.

I'll repeat my main point, for a typical sprinter, weight room strength is not a requirement in improving speed.

As a strength coach you do not have to be a sport coach, yes you have to understand movement, but you do not have to be able to coach drills in every sport to understand how to plan an effective strength training program.

Apparently the highly qualified coach working with Tyson has gone backwards with his performance, and he has an understanding of track as well, just doesn't coach it.

The athlete who can put more force into the ground will be the faster runner.

Heavy weight powerlifters and huge fat guys put a lot of force into the ground as well, how fast do they go?

[secretlifter3]

using your numbers above, ochocinco is squatting double his bodyweight.. remember, he isn't a powerlifter, he is a football player; not a powerlifter -- the goal is to development maximal strength and an insane rate of force production in addition to the necessary hypertrophy and muscular endurance per the individuals sporting requirements


Props to Dan Brown for understanding sport performance training

I believe secretlifter thinks once you touch a barbell, you completely stop all other forms of training because you are then a "lifter" or something..

and yes, weight training is not necessary to be fast.. but to become the fastest you can physiologically become some means of muscular development with the end goal of maximal strength and power production is required. This is typically easiest implemented through resistence training (quickest means of tracking volume and intensity over the annual training plan).

Why be fast if you can be faster?

No I never said that, you can read what I did really say though.

But you also were saying speed training's primary goal is to improve technique... so....

[101pro]

The OP framed the discussion such that the topice discussed is who would get faster someone who only lifted and never ran vs someone who only ran and never lifted.

It is a stupid question and in the 10's of years I have been around it always starts a stupid argument.

why is it a stupid question:

no one would ever suggest only lifting or only sprinting to improve speed.

[QuincyQ]

The OP framed the discussion such that the topice discussed is who would get faster someone who only lifted and never ran vs someone who only ran and never lifted.

It is a stupid question and in the 10's of years I have been around it always starts a stupid argument.

why is it a stupid question:

no one would ever suggest only lifting or only sprinting to improve speed.

Winner.

[Jmanx]

r they blak?

[secretlifter3]

The OP framed the discussion such that the topice discussed is who would get faster someone who only lifted and never ran vs someone who only ran and never lifted.

It is a stupid question and in the 10's of years I have been around it always starts a stupid argument.

why is it a stupid question:

no one would ever suggest only lifting or only sprinting to improve speed.

Actually, the former cannot be succesful while the latter can be succesful.

Obviously the best is to do both.

[madeira17]

Secretlifter3: Would you recommend Hill Sprints Monday and Friday with Flat out sprints on Wednesdays, upwards of 60 yards. This is all to develop better acceleration...also where would I incorporate weight lifting and what would be the best way to do so. Thanks and also when it snows I can't do hill sprints for obvious reasons, what would be a workout that could be somewhat beneficial instead of hills.

[secretlifter3]

Secretlifter3: Would you recommend Hill Sprints Monday and Friday with Flat out sprints on Wednesdays, upwards of 60 yards. This is all to develop better acceleration...also where would I incorporate weight lifting and what would be the best way to do so. Thanks and also when it snows I can't do hill sprints for obvious reasons, what would be a workout that could be somewhat beneficial instead of hills.

Yes from that set up, you'll see gains in specific strength/power and acceleration, but I'd change the friday to saturday instead. Lower body heavy lifting should be done after the mon/wed/sat workouts. (as well as anything upper body that requires full max effort upwards of 90% intensity).

The best replacement for hills, is sled resisted sprints. Do you have access to an indoor track?

[madeira17]

No I don't I wish I did...thanks for the advice. During the winter months it will be hard to sprint outdoors so should I just lift heavy twice a week and sprint outside once? Once next spring comes I can spend a few months working on speed and plyos, does that make sense? I don't have an on or off season this is just to keep me in good/great shape for sprinting when I play the odd pickup game or race one of my friends ha ha.

[secretlifter3]

No I don't I wish I did...thanks for the advice. During the winter months it will be hard to sprint outdoors so should I just lift heavy twice a week and sprint outside once? Once next spring comes I can spend a few months working on speed and plyos, does that make sense? I don't have an on or off season this is just to keep me in good/great shape for sprinting when I play the odd pickup game or race one of my friends ha ha.

Ya you're going to have to do that basically. Or maybe get in a basketball court/fitness room to do short sprints if possible.

[labradarep]

Ya I did isuderstad you there, my mistake. Specific training + strength = best results.



Here, you misunderstood me.


I never said strength training isn't needed, it IS needed (in the variety of forms it's given) to maximise potential.

I'll repeat my main point, for a typical sprinter, weight room strength is not a requirement in improving speed.


Apparently the highly qualified coach working with Tyson has gone backwards with his performance, and he has an understanding of track as well, just doesn't coach it.





Heavy weight powerlifters and huge fat guys put a lot of force into the ground as well, how fast do they go?

You are contradicting yourself within your answer. You say specific training + strength = best results. Then go on to say that using the weight room is not a requirement???? You need to gain a greater understanding of the importance of lifting to improve performance in ANY sport.


Weightlifters & powerlifters & Olympic lifters, put huge forces into the ground. Some powerlifters & Olympic lifters have been timed & have world class 30-40 yard sprints times. They are training for a different sport. Thus not worried about sprinting technique/performance.

Like I mentioned before you train the strength qualities that match your sport + work on technical & tactical portions of that sport. This, means that you start out with GPP & become more sport specific as the season draws near. Now, with sprinting that would mean that "sprinting " would take priority over lifting as in season draws nearer. But, lifting properly during the in-season portion of the season will help maintain strength & power levels attained during the off/pre season.

[secretlifter3]

You are contradicting yourself within your answer. You say specific training + strength = best results. Then go on to say that using the weight room is not a requirement???? You need to gain a greater understanding of the importance of lifting to improve performance in ANY sport.


Weightlifters & powerlifters & Olympic lifters, put huge forces into the ground. Some powerlifters & Olympic lifters have been timed & have world class 30-40 yard sprints times. They are training for a different sport. Thus not worried about sprinting technique/performance.

Like I mentioned before you train the strength qualities that match your sport + work on technical & tactical portions of that sport. This, means that you start out with GPP & become more sport specific as the season draws near. Now, with sprinting that would mean that "sprinting " would take priority over lifting as in season draws nearer. But, lifting properly during the in-season portion of the season will help maintain strength & power levels attained during the off/pre season.

I'm no contradicting myself at all.

Specific training + strength = best results

Just because something is needed to get best results, does not mean it's a requirement to improving.

And also, you seem to fail to understand that weight room strength is not specific strength . Asafa Powell is not weight room strong, yet he can blow away the guy with the best relative strength in the world for even the first 30m. He does A LOT of sled sprints and hill sprints during his GPP and SPP and develops specific speed strength.
And that's how a lot of sprinters are, they don't express their strength in the weight room doing slow movements, but can express their strength on the track where it really counts.

Could you show me several examples with proof to show weightlifters who are timed (electronically) with world class 30-40m times? I'm just interested to see...

And also, weight training of any sort, including stuff like med ball and plyos, never take priority in a sprinter's program during the GPP... Certainly they are emphacized highly during GPP time, as well as SPP time, but the sprint work/running work always gains priority.

[D1FBALL]

a dumbass

[mxblaw]

unless B incorporates sprints into his training, he'll never beat A because weight lifting doesn't use the same motion as sprinting but its more in isolation. plus it'll make him bulkier if we're talking maximum strength training.

[labradarep]

This is going to be my last post on this thread.

secret you are not reading my posts properly. No where did I state that a sprinter should only perform slow speed strength work???? But, Slow speed strength work IS essential in developing any athlete. (Go back & read all my posts again)

You keep on using World Class athletes for your examples??? How many people train world Class athletes??? (Very few). Those athletes are going to be faster than most people on the planet even without training. They are genetically gifted with tons of FT muscle fibres.

Most of the people you, I & most of the other trainers on this site are going work with will not be as genetically gifted as Asafa Powell, etc... Therefore, let's deal with reality. The reality of it is you will need to develop athletes in the weight room & on the track/court. (and when I refer to the weight room here I mean Gpp & Spp, so weights, Plyo.s med balls, etc...)


I really hope you open your mind up & learn more about weight training (as a general term).

I'm no contradicting myself at all.

Specific training + strength = best results

Just because something is needed to get best results, does not mean it's a requirement to improving.

And also, you seem to fail to understand that weight room strength is not specific strength . Asafa Powell is not weight room strong, yet he can blow away the guy with the best relative strength in the world for even the first 30m. He does A LOT of sled sprints and hill sprints during his GPP and SPP and develops specific speed strength.
And that's how a lot of sprinters are, they don't express their strength in the weight room doing slow movements, but can express their strength on the track where it really counts.

Could you show me several examples with proof to show weightlifters who are timed (electronically) with world class 30-40m times? I'm just interested to see...

And also, weight training of any sort, including stuff like med ball and plyos, never take priority in a sprinter's program during the GPP... Certainly they are emphacized highly during GPP time, as well as SPP time, but the sprint work/running work always gains priority.

[secretlifter3]

This is going to be my last post on this thread.

secret you are not reading my posts properly. No where did I state that a sprinter should only perform slow speed strength work???? But, Slow speed strength work IS essential in developing any athlete. (Go back & read all my posts again)

You keep on using World Class athletes for your examples??? How many people train world Class athletes??? (Very few). Those athletes are going to be faster than most people on the planet even without training. They are genetically gifted with tons of FT muscle fibres.

Most of the people you, I & most of the other trainers on this site are going work with will not be as genetically gifted as Asafa Powell, etc... Therefore, let's deal with reality. The reality of it is you will need to develop athletes in the weight room & on the track/court. (and when I refer to the weight room here I mean Gpp & Spp, so weights, Plyo.s med balls, etc...)


I really hope you open your mind up & learn more about weight training (as a general term).

Most of us will not coach world class athletes, but many of us will deal with guys who have world class potential. As Charlie Francis said "There's a sea of talent."
So yes, believe it or not, there is quite a bit of world class talent out there, very few of those will actually have the dedicated + proper training to get there though. And I'm speaking talent in terms of 10.1x down to 10.0x, perhaps 9.95-10.00.

To reach your full potential, the weight room is essential for sure. To improve, the use of med ball, plyos, weight room, body weight strength, etc. is all essential as a combo. For a typical sprinter, they dont HAVE to get stronger in the squat rack to get faster at all, but doing so will aid them.

And also, I lift 5x per week during GPP and 3-4x per week during SPP, and up to twice a week during competition time. I lift quite heavy as well, nearly always working towards a pb on loading weeks. I'm really the wrong person to say "open your mind about weights."

[jdiritto]

If you do not believe you can get faster with strength training alone, even at elite levels, seek out Louie Simmons; he will tell it to you like it is and provide many, many examples from his coaching career.


It's almost humorous that some in this thread (I am slightly guilty myself - damned offseason) have invested so much effort into becoming the bodybuilding.com message board speed training expert ... if you were such a great coach, shouldn't you all be putting time/effort into other avenues? All it takes is a few clicks to view ones message history, and I immediately question secretlifters credibility. I never bothered to look at anyone else, as he seems to be the dominant source for speed training information at forums.bodybuilding.com



I'm with labradarep, but this is going to be my last post on public message boards..

[secretlifter3]

If you do not believe you can get faster with strength training alone, even at elite levels, seek out Louie Simmons; he will tell it to you like it is and provide many, many examples from his coaching career.


It's almost humorous that some in this thread (I am slightly guilty myself - damned offseason) have invested so much effort into becoming the bodybuilding.com message board speed training expert ... if you were such a great coach, shouldn't you all be putting time/effort into other avenues? All it takes is a few clicks to view ones message history, and I immediately question secretlifters credibility. I never bothered to look at anyone else, as he seems to be the dominant source for speed training information at forums.bodybuilding.com



I'm with labradarep, but this is going to be my last post on public message boards..

Louie Simmons? How many people did he build up from SCRATCH to the top?

Or did he take really fast guys naturally, with a long speed base & training age, who lacked strength? And made them stronger?

You can question my credibility if you want, it doesn't matter when every example you bring is debunked right away. As are other ones a couple people present. Or... some people come online to attack other posters... lulz...

Adios brah

[aandre]

"Strength Training in Explosive-Type Sports: Sprinting"
by Steven K. Fleck, Ph.D.

(I can't post the link but it's on the EliteTrack website)

Cliffs:

In athletes with no prior strength training experience:

"After eight weeks of strength training, 1RM squat ability increased 20.9%, while 40m sprint time decreased 2.3%."

"After six months of nonlinear periodized weight training, 1RM leg press ability demonstrated significant improvement of 31.9%, and 40 yard (36.7m) sprint times decreased 6.36%."

But then:

"A 10 week program of only heavy squats showed no significant change in 30m sprint time in a group of individuals with at least one year of weight training experience."

Their conclusion is that strength training is helpful for sprinting, but it's efficacy is inversely correlated to how much strength training one has previously done.

So in our "A vs. B" debate, I think A (sprint training) will always get faster, but B might also improve greatly, depending on his past weight training experience.

[Pazienxa]

"Strength Training in Explosive-Type Sports: Sprinting"
by Steven K. Fleck, Ph.D.

(I can't post the link but it's on the EliteTrack website)

Cliffs:

In athletes with no prior strength training experience:

"After eight weeks of strength training, 1RM squat ability increased 20.9%, while 40m sprint time decreased 2.3%."

"After six months of nonlinear periodized weight training, 1RM leg press ability demonstrated significant improvement of 31.9%, and 40 yard (36.7m) sprint times decreased 6.36%."

But then:

"A 10 week program of only heavy squats showed no significant change in 30m sprint time in a group of individuals with at least one year of weight training experience."

Their conclusion is that strength training is helpful for sprinting, but it's efficacy is inversely correlated to how much strength training one has previously done.

So in our "A vs. B" debate, I think A (sprint training) will always get faster, but B might also improve greatly, depending on his past weight training experience.

i can somewhat attest to this. while squatting has increased my vert, it did little to nothing for sprinting.

article here btw: http://www.elitetrack.com/articles/read/4501/