In this thread I, and hopefully others, will go into great detail about the theory and application of HIT. We will go into topics as developed by Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates. I will go into such things as levels of muscular strength, ways to increase intensity, the importance of diet and rest days, different types of programs, and many others.
I will do my best to answer any questions that are asked here. That is unless it's a flame and/or troll then I will just ignore. If you feel that HIT is a terrible program, and you are entitled to your opinion, then please just continue on your way.
It is my hope to help those that are interested in HIT as well start and continue a strong dialogue here for others to find.
|
-
06-22-2010, 06:12 AM #1
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
All About High Intensity Training (HIT)
My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-22-2010, 06:31 AM #2
- Join Date: Dec 2007
- Location: Michigan, United States
- Age: 50
- Posts: 16,707
- Rep Power: 1129519
Make sure you include the background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mentzer
Originally Posted by from The Wiki and available elsewhere[]---[] Equipment Crew Member No. 11
"As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another" Proverbs 27:17
-
06-22-2010, 06:32 AM #3
-
06-22-2010, 07:05 AM #4
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
One thing that is important to remember is that Yates didnt put all of his muscle mass using HIT, he however used it later in order to continue to develop his mammoth muscle mass.
I would recommend you pick up "The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer", the latest book. There is a whole chapter devoted to his training of Yates. While Yates did train in HIT form, he made his own changes that he felt were better for him. I would highly recommend "Blood and Guts", as it shows his exact routine and the amount of intensity that man trained with. I believe you can find parts on you tube, but I would just buy that actual dvdMy Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
-
06-22-2010, 07:11 AM #5
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
This is the type of thing I didn't want here. Yes, Mike, along with millions of others have personal demons. However, attacking his personal character in order to discredit his ideas has no merit here. If you have something productive to contribute, then please stay, if not continue on your way.
My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-22-2010, 07:22 AM #6
I didn't ask whether or not it was HIT that built Yates' initial mass - I know he was a volume trainer initially - I merely asked which HIT program he followed, and all you provided me with was a book to buy. wow strong sales push.
I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss HIT, not reference other sources of HIT material...
-
06-22-2010, 07:37 AM #7
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
Wow, ok first off, what sales push? Did i put a link or anything where I would get some sort of commissions? No, I didnt. Second, its FREE on youtube. I just dont have the exact routine right in front me. So, you dont have to spend one cent. Once I have some time later, Ill post it here.
My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-22-2010, 07:53 AM #8
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
Here's the workout Mentzer made for Yates for the 1992 Olympia( from "Wisdom of Mike Mentzer" pg. 107)
Monday:
Chest
DB Flyes- 1 set to failure
Machine Incline Press - 1 set to failure
Deltoids
Nautilus Lateral Raises- 1 set to failure
Nautilus Rear delt raise- 1 set to failure
Triceps:
Tricep Extensions - 1 set to failure
Pushdown - 1 set to failure
Wednesday:
Back
Pullovers-1 set to failure
Lat Pulldowns-1 set to failure
Hammer Rows-1 set to failure
Traps
Hammer Shrugs:
Biceps
Nautilus Curls
90 degreee preacher- 1 set to failure + 4 partials
Friday
Legs
Leg Extensions-1 set to failure
Leg Press-1 set to failure
Squats-1 set to failure
Leg Curls-1 set to failure
Stiff-Legged DL-1 set to failure
Calf Raises-2 setsMy Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
-
06-22-2010, 08:38 AM #9
If you're not intrested in opposing viewpoints, there's going to be nothing but crickets chirping in this thread.
No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
-
06-22-2010, 08:43 AM #10
-
06-22-2010, 08:57 AM #11
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
-
06-22-2010, 08:59 AM #12
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
-
-
06-22-2010, 09:05 AM #13
-
06-22-2010, 09:58 AM #14
- Join Date: Dec 2007
- Location: Michigan, United States
- Age: 50
- Posts: 16,707
- Rep Power: 1129519
I'm not even posting an opposing viewpoint, I just think that any discussion of HIT must take into account that its main proponant was a drug addicted loon who spent The best part of a decade barking at the moon from inside a mental hospital.
This simple fact frames the discussion and makes many of the concepts more understandable.[]---[] Equipment Crew Member No. 11
"As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another" Proverbs 27:17
-
06-22-2010, 10:35 AM #15
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
So a theory is only valid if the proponent lived a life that society would deem "normal". Once again, it is obvious you are just trying to get a rise or whatever, but attacking a man's personal character does nothing to deflate the theory of High Intensity Training. The principles are sound, the theory is sound. That is all I care about. If Henry Ford was, what you would call a "loon", would that take away at all of his invention of the car? Would you not drive a car based on the personal character of the inventor?
So, let me get this straight. If I do not understand the theory of the pre-exhaustive principle, knowing that he "was a loon" will help me understand the concepts better? Don't think so.My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-22-2010, 11:07 AM #16
- Join Date: Jun 2009
- Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom (Great Britain)
- Age: 47
- Posts: 19,532
- Rep Power: 0
In addition to Mike's personal sanity issues at the time he was writing his HIT ideas, you need to keep in mind that his ideas have been disproved by modern science. Every trainer of professional athletes whose ability to pay his mortgage and feed his children based on the performance of his athletes, who has to read peer reviews and be on top of the latest research would laugh his ass off at HIT and MM's ideas. Most of it flies in the face what we know about human biology, adaptation to workload, gains in strength and the different types of hypertrophy.
It isn't scientific despite Mike's claims that it was. The concept is so ludicrous and the concept of non-drug using bodybuilders training a muscle only once a week has done so much harm to the bodybuilding, fitness and athlete world that for the sake of sanity, people need to be made aware of just how ridiculous these concepts are.
-
-
06-22-2010, 11:55 AM #17
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
OK, I figured this was going to happen. Let's get a few things straight here.
1) This thread is about HIT, not just MM and Heavy Duty
2) I have no idea why, when it is really quite obvious, that you have no interest in HIT, that you come to a thread that's all about HIT
3) If you hate HIT, think it's crap, etc. I respect your opinion. You are entitled to that. But return that respect to the thread and either leave, or keep your opinions to yourself.
I'm sure anyone that has ever looked at HIT, knows the debate. This thread is not a debate thread. You dont see me going to the volume threads, and saying xyz is crap, etc. Why? Because I have no interest in volume threads. I have no need to go and disrupt for the sake of disrupting.
I get it, some of you don't like HIT. That's great. Our differences keep the world turning. But I do not need/want your opinion. So here is today's thought of the day:
"If you hate, dislike, or any other verb you want to use,HIT, then don't go into threads that are nothing but about HIT."
I used to be a volume trainer. The 2 hour sessions, the 4-5 days a week. Worked in the beginning, well, because anything works in the beginning when you aren't used to lifting. But I found volume draining, and wasn't working for me. Does that mean I hate volume trainers. No! How other people train has not one iota importance to me. But for some people it does.Last edited by DYTrainer; 06-22-2010 at 12:33 PM.
My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-22-2010, 12:13 PM #18
Subscribed to this thread.
I'm reading 'High-Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way'.
I'm making some of my best gains ever training HIT.
I don't think Mike was dead on about everything but he had many things right and it's good food for thought.
He had better things to add to the sport than Weider imho......who was prolly more interested in your money.
I have Dorian's book on the way.
-
06-22-2010, 12:13 PM #19
- Join Date: Jun 2009
- Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom (Great Britain)
- Age: 47
- Posts: 19,532
- Rep Power: 0
Why? Because I feel a personal sense of obligation to the next generation of bodybuilders who are having to go through the same thing I did 12 years ago of having to sort through piles and piles of bull****. They are forced to read magazine after magazine from the Weider rags, listen to trainers who never took a kinesology course in college who have no concept of muscle performance or adaptation, to insane pseudo-scientists like Mike Menzer or Pete Sisco who have no concept of the science behind training who just make up theories as they go and poorly implement methods based on those theories. Or they have to listen to pro bodybuilders who use doses of drugs that would make the head spin, who combine the ideas of all of that above and simply do not have to understand the real flaws in any of it because they are on enough drugs to have a large margin of error, and just continue to progress.
These ideas are in direct contradiction with what the early bodybuilders used pre-steroid, who had very nice physiques and tended to be extremely strong pound for pound, and are often times the complete opposite of what trainers of professional athletes have learned over the years, and what can even be observed by just watching who gains muscle in the real world who does not work out in a gym etc. The mainstream recreational fitness world is just as guilty as MM and the HIT crowd of this, however it should be noted that they share many of the same concepts, e.i. the obsession with overtraining, long frequencies between working the same lifts etc.
You will find that a lot of the old school guys build amazing bodies without drugs, did not stall, had amazing max lifts to go with it etc who trained every lift 3x a week, sometimes more, did not use 30 different lifts per body part, did not train to failure, and still did fairly high volume training. If anything the knowledge of training in the general fitness and bodybuilding world has regressed from what those individuals knew, while it has increased in the professional international athletic community. Mike's ideas and HIT fall into the same category of very flawed ideas based upon incorrect conclusions regarding the human body.
If I did not say something regarding this in this type of thread upon seeing it, I would be doing a grave disservice to the novices here.
-
06-22-2010, 12:27 PM #20
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
Ok, well then your "bodybuilding duty, as the protector of novices" has been accomplished. Your posts, along with all the others, are here and people can make their own conclusions. I thank you for contributing, but please refrain from any more posts here as you have made your opinions overly clear.
My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
-
06-22-2010, 12:30 PM #21
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
Welcome! I agree with a lot you are saying there. I have read HITTMMW more times than I can count, so I feel that I am thoroughly familiar with his work. This is the place to ask questions. I hope some more people join in, but I guess it is hard to go against the "more is better" mentality of the group.
I think a combination of Mentzer and Yates is a good way to go.My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-22-2010, 12:55 PM #22
-
06-22-2010, 01:11 PM #23
Anything that increases intensity with less volume and more recuperation is worth considering. Intensity is what's making me grow........not volume.
I think Mike went overboard with too little frequency.....imo. But then again I think too many people are throwing the weights around and more worried about the the numbers than the MMC, aswell as overtraining..........I know, I did it too. Reading to many weider 'enhanced' workouts over the years, i guess.
-
06-22-2010, 01:18 PM #24
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
Yes, intensity is the key. In the coming weeks I will go into topics such as:
-Pre-Exhausting
-Failure and Beyond
-Levels of Muscular Strength
-What and when to do it
If anyone has any ideas, or wants to contribute yourself, please feel free too. Nice to see some people here that arent just here to bash.My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
-
06-23-2010, 11:27 AM #25
- Join Date: Jun 2010
- Location: Strongsville, Ohio, United States
- Age: 40
- Posts: 1,607
- Rep Power: 947
Topic: Pre-exhaustive principle
Theory:
The pre-exhaustive principle (known as PeP from now on) is a vital tool when attempting the do a workout HIT style. One of the corner stones of the HIT theory is training a muscle to complete failure. However, this is quite hard without using the PeP. Simply, PeP is giving a smaller, thus weaker muscle group, a temporary strength advantage over a bigger and stronger muscle group. This is accomplished by doing an isolation exercise to complete failure, immediately followed by a compound exercise. See Practice for specific ideas.
Why must their be a strength advantage to the smaller muscle groups? Well, in order to train the target muscle group to failure we need those smaller muscles not to fatigue before the larger muscle group we are targeting fails. An example is when doing leg press, without PeP the hamstrings and/or calves would fail far before the quads. But if we do leg extensions (isolation exercise) before the leg press ( compound exercise) the quads are primed to fail before the hamstrings and calves.
Practice:
Now that the theory of PeP is hopefully clear, we can go further to implementing this principle in HIT workouts. A simple way to remember is that when we are doing major muscle groups ( Legs, Back, Chest, Shoulders) how can we use isolation exercises in order to give the smaller supporting muscles that temporary strength advantage we are after.
Quads: Leg Extensions --> Leg Press
Chest: Flyes( peck deck/db,etc) --> Dips/Incline Press,etc
Shoulders: Lat Raises -->Shoulder Press
Rear Delts: Reverse Flye --> High Row
Back: Pullovers --> DY Row/Close-Grip Pulldowns
Biceps: Preacher Curls -->Barbell Curls
Triceps:Pushdown --> Skull Crushers
If someone has never used this type of training before the weights of the compound exercise will more than likely have to decrease. It's only logical that the muscle is fatigued more than before, therefore, will require less stimulus (weight). However, the exercise will be much more effective since the target muscle group is being taken to failure.
Any productive questions or comments are welcomed.My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
-
06-23-2010, 10:05 PM #26
mentzer even more so didnt use hit till later in his career. in fact mentzer was a very high volume trainer early on (until he met viator in 71) something yates never was. yates was always low volume (basic routines never went over 6 working sets per bp), he then further reduced the volume the more advanced he became. yates himself stated he tried high volume for about 2 weeks & knew straight away it wasnt for him.
yates was very adamant that he never followed any routine 'designed for him by mentzer'. he was photographed in 1 training session in the u.s where mentzer tagged along, mentzer then went around saying how he is training yates, something yates was very irritated by. yates never changed anything in his routine based on what mentzer told him during that 1 session.
anyways o.p, mentzer never addressed the issue of periodization. do u include it & if so how? this is something d.c. does quite well.
also the general consensus today is that pre-exhausting the larger muscle reduces its influence during the compound move, thus not favorable. so say pre-exhausting the lats (with pullover machine) b4 rowing just makes rows a more strenuous bicep exercise, which is why Yates tore his bicep during rows. how do you justify pre-ex'ing physiologically (not philosophically)?"Though the concept is not scientifically validated in detail (it should be considered as a hypothesis rather than a scientific theory), it is useful from a practical standpoint. When training athletes, it is impossible to wait until scientific research provides all of the necessary knowledge." Vladmir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D.
-
06-23-2010, 11:16 PM #27
--------------------------------
Actually, gomez, Yates tore his bicep not due to pre-exhaust or anything like that; he tore it because he lifted VERY heavy, didn't vary his exercises or grip all that much, and he tended to make the first few reps somewhat "loose" and the last few he tended to (sort of) jerk up the weight. {If you watch "Blood and Guts" as he does his back workout, notice how (post bicep tear) he has switched to an overhand grip and uses (somewhat) loose form on his bent rows. Yeah, it's a s--tload of weight and more power to him for doing it, but having your bicep torn ain't on the menu for me}. The other thing is, using an underhand grip on bent rows, while it hits the lower lats a bit more than overhand does, puts the bis in a vulnerable position.
With pre-exhaust, I think it's a good idea and I do it once in a while, but the problem with it is that you have to sacrifice the weight of one exercise for another, something that most guys don't want to do. If anything, post-exhaust seems to have greater benefits, but as with all things training, it's very individual.Last edited by GuyJin; 06-24-2010 at 12:45 AM.
"Don't call me Miss Kitty. Just...don't."--Catnip. Check out the Catnip Trilogy on Amazon.com
"Chivalry isn't dead. It just wears a skirt."--Twisted, the YA gender bender deal of the century!
Check out my links to Mr. Taxi, Star Maps, and other fine YA Action/Romance novels at http://www.amazon.com/J.S.-Frankel/e/B004XUUTB8/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1
-
06-24-2010, 04:57 AM #28
-
-
06-24-2010, 05:01 AM #29
- Join Date: Apr 2007
- Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
- Posts: 4,824
- Rep Power: 4690
"Volume" isn't a training program, it's a one of 3 variables volume/intensity/frequency. Every program has a measure of each.
Another problem HIT advocates seem to have is to blinker themselves to only understand HIT or higher volume programs, they tend to ignore that there are many steps inbetween these 2 extremes that will work very well for most lifters.
-
06-24-2010, 05:08 AM #30
Similar Threads
-
Intro to HIT - High Intensity Training
By Nick1971 in forum Workout ProgramsReplies: 36Last Post: 01-20-2016, 05:41 AM -
I have questions about High Intensity Training
By snorkelman in forum Workout ProgramsReplies: 251Last Post: 07-11-2010, 08:09 PM -
HIT (High Intensity Training) Exercises
By CSB17 in forum Teen BodybuildingReplies: 0Last Post: 03-23-2010, 06:31 PM -
High Intensity Training (HIT) book/program???
By demash in forum Workout ProgramsReplies: 10Last Post: 06-07-2009, 02:53 PM -
Question about High Intensity Training
By costasoldatos in forum Workout ProgramsReplies: 2Last Post: 01-12-2003, 07:36 AM
Bookmarks