do you guys make clients do wall sits

[smcleod90]

is it for muscle endurance or building strength

[Audioslave]

I make my clients do them. It can be for building strength if the client struggles with squats, leg press, or has very weak legs. But if I'm training an athlete or someone in good shape, then it is typically just for muscle endurance. In that case I'll have them do a wall sit for anywhere from 1-2 minutes.

[jcolson]

is it for muscle endurance or building strength

Do you do them yourself?

[nickmanzoni]

Wall sits are pretty much ridiculous as I sit here and think about it...

Which muscles are we trying to stimulate? Quads? Yeah, way to target the already mostly dominant leg muscles of the sedentary bunch. You MIGHT get some glutes in there, but you pretty much turn off lower back, abs, and hips at this point, so why even do the exercise? Anyone who is in dire need of quad isolation would probably be doing front squats or step ups verses wall sits. It's a pointless burn that makes the trainer look "tough". TO WHAT END I ASK YOU?

[KyleAaron]

Reminds me too much of punishments in the Army, so no.

I don't see it as serving any purpose which wouldn't be better-served by a movement. If someone is weak in squatting, get them to squat. A wall sit will teach them to rely on their quads and rest their back - will that help their squat? Does anyone find that when squatting they use their back too much and their quads not enough?

Begin with bodyweight squats over the longest safe range of motion, as soon as they feel pain or they get lumbar flexion, that's the full range of motion for them. This range of motion will increase with practice as the person gets stronger. At what point you add weight depends on the person's capabilities and goals.

I suppose there might be some application of wall sits for special populations, I don't know, I don't deal with them. For the general population and athletes and sportspeople, I just don't see it.

I'd put it with the step-up-and-curl or walking-lunges-for-the-burn in the toolbox for the enter-trainer PT. If we're going to be enter-trainers, let's just do Zumba, that'll be more fun.

[Keltron]

If we're going to be enter-trainers, let's just do Zumba, that'll be more fun.

lol I like this kyle aaron guy!

[Audioslave]

Reminds me too much of punishments in the Army, so no.

I don't see it as serving any purpose which wouldn't be better-served by a movement. If someone is weak in squatting, get them to squat. A wall sit will teach them to rely on their quads and rest their back - will that help their squat? Does anyone find that when squatting they use their back too much and their quads not enough?

Begin with bodyweight squats over the longest safe range of motion, as soon as they feel pain or they get lumbar flexion, that's the full range of motion for them. This range of motion will increase with practice as the person gets stronger. At what point you add weight depends on the person's capabilities and goals.

I suppose there might be some application of wall sits for special populations, I don't know, I don't deal with them. For the general population and athletes and sportspeople, I just don't see it.

I'd put it with the step-up-and-curl or walking-lunges-for-the-burn in the toolbox for the enter-trainer PT. If we're going to be enter-trainers, let's just do Zumba, that'll be more fun.

Well, I do use them for special populations, but I also use them for athletes. I do find that they can build more muscular endurance in the lower body. They probably give you the best static contraction of any other body weight movement I can think of.

[KyleAaron]

They probably give you the best static contraction of any other body weight movement I can think of.

In what sport is an isometric contraction useful?

Dancing and gymnastics, maybe. Wouldn't they be better off just practicing the relevant moves?

Let me guess, you sometimes put a swiss ball between them and the wall, too?

[jules_d1]

In what sport is an isometric contraction useful?

Dancing and gymnastics, maybe. Wouldn't they be better off just practicing the relevant moves?

Let me guess, you sometimes put a swiss ball between them and the wall, too?

very important in skiiing, horseriding etc.

[KyleAaron]

True, you'd get more skiiers and horseriders up in your neck of the woods than I would, Jules.

But if you improve dynamic strength and lactate tolerance, static strength improves, too. Why torture the poor sod with a wall sit?

[jcolson]

Wall sits are pretty much ridiculous as I sit here and think about it...

Which muscles are we trying to stimulate? Quads? Yeah, way to target the already mostly dominant leg muscles of the sedentary bunch. You MIGHT get some glutes in there, but you pretty much turn off lower back, abs, and hips at this point, so why even do the exercise? Anyone who is in dire need of quad isolation would probably be doing front squats or step ups verses wall sits. It's a pointless burn that makes the trainer look "tough". TO WHAT END I ASK YOU?

^This^

I dont get it really. It seems sometimes that trainer think they have to incorporate a whole bunch of wierd crap into a regimen in order to be a good trainer. I would never recomend something unless I myself would do it if I was in the same situation.

I really dont think I would ever do wall sits for any reason. There are so many different static exercises that would make more sense.

[Audioslave]

In what sport is an isometric contraction useful?

Dancing and gymnastics, maybe. Wouldn't they be better off just practicing the relevant moves?

Let me guess, you sometimes put a swiss ball between them and the wall, too?

Lower body muscle endurance is important for many sports. If you took a look around at training techniques for gyms that are sports specific, then you will see a much different world of training than from your typical personal trainer at a fitness club. I remember when I was a boxer, we couldn't even enter the gym before we did a quarter mile duck walk.

For wrestlers, boxers, etc. I usually cut out a lot of mass building exercises, especially weighted squats. Main reason for this is because there is too much muscle mass to be gained in a lot of their legs, and that would not be beneficial to a boxer and just put him out of his weight class. The calves are much smaller, but also more beneficial to a boxer, so we would focus more on that.

Since I try to avoid a lot of heavy lower body compound movements, such as squats, I still have to hit the lower body. So I will incorporate lighter dumbbell squats and wall sits. You always have to keep the needs of your client in mind, and so that is why I incorporate wall sits.

[nickmanzoni]

Lower body muscle endurance is important for many sports. If you took a look around at training techniques for gyms that are sports specific, then you will see a much different world of training than from your typical personal trainer at a fitness club. I remember when I was a boxer, we couldn't even enter the gym before we did a quarter mile duck walk.

For wrestlers, boxers, etc. I usually cut out a lot of mass building exercises, especially weighted squats. Main reason for this is because there is too much muscle mass to be gained in a lot of their legs, and that would not be beneficial to a boxer and just put him out of his weight class. The calves are much smaller, but also more beneficial to a boxer, so we would focus more on that.

Since I try to avoid a lot of heavy lower body compound movements, such as squats, I still have to hit the lower body. So I will incorporate lighter dumbbell squats and wall sits. You always have to keep the needs of your client in mind, and so that is why I incorporate wall sits.

Wall sits are a pointless and detrimental exercise. Why would you deliberately turn off your hips and abs to stimulate quads? DO FRONT SQUATS. A boxer doesn't practice keeping his hips perfectly still, so why would you shut it off? A wrestler would definitely need strong legs and core through squats. Why make someone do kneeling push-ups when they can do them standard? Why make them hold wall sits when lunges (even bodyweight) would work so much better???

[smdiskin]

true, you'd get more skiiers and horseriders up in your neck of the woods than i would, jules.

But if you improve dynamic strength and lactate tolerance, static strength improves, too. Why torture the poor sod with a wall sit?

rofl...

[tovlakas]

In what sport is an isometric contraction useful?

Dancing and gymnastics, maybe. Wouldn't they be better off just practicing the relevant moves?

Let me guess, you sometimes put a swiss ball between them and the wall, too?

besides all the ones listed, isometric contraction is extremely useful for grappling/wrestling.

As for using them as a trainer, the only people I ever made do wall sits were the pledges of my fraternity while i was hazing them in college, haha.

[Ctrainer]

Lulz at everyone in here being all high and mighty.. I use wall-sits as active rest for clients who get very winded quickly..

If I have an very overweight client and they are limited at what they will do, I am going to use what I can..

Much of the general population dislike personal trainers because they seem like a bunch of pompous know-it-alls...those people must troll in here...

[jcolson]

Lulz at everyone in here being all high and mighty.. I use wall-sits as active rest for clients who get very winded quickly..

If I have an very overweight client and they are limited at what they will do, I am going to use what I can..

Much of the general population dislike personal trainers because they seem like a bunch of pompous know-it-alls...those people must troll in here...

So far there has been quite a bit of good feedback. I know what you mean by pompous know it all trainers though.

Your the only one in here that sounds pompous so far. Maybe you could lighten up a little.

[Ctrainer]

So far there has been quite a bit of good feedback. I know what you mean by pompous know it all trainers though.

Your the only one in here that sounds pompous so far. Maybe you could lighten up a little.

Chastising another trainer for using an exercise that has some benefit seems off to me..a large part of what we do as trainers is motivate people to get moving and get off the couch...

Not all of us have the luxury of just training ellite athletes...we sometimes train average people that start their fitness very late in life..if the exercise is safe and my client will do it...it has benefit to me..

I like to stay open-minded..you should try it sometime!!

[Audioslave]

Wall sits are a pointless and detrimental exercise. Why would you deliberately turn off your hips and abs to stimulate quads? DO FRONT SQUATS. A boxer doesn't practice keeping his hips perfectly still, so why would you shut it off? A wrestler would definitely need strong legs and core through squats. Why make someone do kneeling push-ups when they can do them standard? Why make them hold wall sits when lunges (even bodyweight) would work so much better???

I train a very diverse population. As for the athletes that you are talking of (boxers, and wrestlers, etc.), they can do tons of squats. Actually, they can do so many body weight squats that you would probably call them useless. Fact is, the smart ones won't do heavy weighted squats. At best I can get them holding a couple of light dumbbells, but that is about it. Some are very serious about not gaining weight, and I know because I am a boxer. Using wall sits, sometimes making them hold that static position at the bottom of the eccentric contraction is actually the only way to wear out some athletes such as wrestlers/boxers, as regular BW, and even light weight squats could take over 30 reps to get them anywhere near failure.

If you want to use the argument that they are detrimental, then they can be just as detrimental as regular squats for some.

[nickmanzoni]

I train a very diverse population. As for the athletes that you are talking of (boxers, and wrestlers, etc.), they can do tons of squats. Actually, they can do so many body weight squats that you would probably call them useless. Fact is, the smart ones won't do heavy weighted squats. At best I can get them holding a couple of light dumbbells, but that is about it. Some are very serious about not gaining weight, and I know because I am a boxer. Using wall sits, sometimes making them hold that static position at the bottom of the eccentric contraction is actually the only way to wear out some athletes such as wrestlers/boxers, as regular BW, and even light weight squats could take over 30 reps to get them anywhere near failure.

If you want to use the argument that they are detrimental, then they can be just as detrimental as regular squats for some.

The same population that would bear that squats are detrimental would be the same exact population that would have wall sits be detrimental.

Explain to me the difference between doing 30 rep squats and wall sits please?

If the answer is anything but "Actually, squats work the quads MORE than wall sits, WHILE working the hamstrings, glutes, hips, lower back, abs..." then don't bother.

Why not just hold their knees in lockout on a knee extention? It's the same damn thing.

Why not have a guy hold top position on a bench press? Why not have a guy hold top position of a pull up for minutes at a time? To what end would these work? Lactic acid threshold? For my time/money, I'd rather have trainer work me out then have me stay still.... That's me I guess....

[tovlakas]

The same population that would bear that squats are detrimental would be the same exact population that would have wall sits be detrimental.

Explain to me the difference between doing 30 rep squats and wall sits please?

If the answer is anything but "Actually, squats work the quads MORE than wall sits, WHILE working the hamstrings, glutes, hips, lower back, abs..." then don't bother.

Why not just hold their knees in lockout on a knee extention? It's the same damn thing.

Why not have a guy hold top position on a bench press? Why not have a guy hold top position of a pull up for minutes at a time? To what end would these work? Lactic acid threshold? For my time/money, I'd rather have trainer work me out then have me stay still.... That's me I guess....

not sure how you equate those as the same thing. lockout on bench is a. a resting position and b. the full contract of the triceps and pecs, while a wall sit is the exact opposite: it's the stretching position of a squat and the most difficult position to hold.

As for holding the top of a pull-up, I'm not sure why you're scoffing at that. Are you suggesting that isometric training as a whole is useless and detrimental? I'd welcome you to come grapple with me and see who's muscles burn out first while we're fighting for a position/submission. When I first started jiu jitsu I was able to beat much more experienced people simply because my muscles have excellent endurance, and theirs don't.

I find your generalization about and narrow definition of what constitutes appropriate training for a "client" to be pretty close-minded and intolerant.

[jcolson]

Chastising another trainer for using an exercise that has some benefit seems off to me..a large part of what we do as trainers is motivate people to get moving and get off the couch...

Not all of us have the luxury of just training ellite athletes...we sometimes train average people that start their fitness very late in life..if the exercise is safe and my client will do it...it has benefit to me..

I like to stay open-minded..you should try it sometime!!

We didnt chastise him, he asked if we would use it, and we gave our answers.

the general opinion was that there are a lot of better options. Most are just as easy. I just wouldnt have someone do it myself. I wasnt being pompous about it.

[KyleAaron]

Lulz at everyone in here being all high and mighty.. I use wall-sits as active rest for clients who get very winded quickly..

If I have an very overweight client and they are limited at what they will do, I am going to use what I can..

A wall sit is painful enough for a person of healthy bodyweight. It's going to be twice as painful for an overweight client. "Active rest" should be about stimulating blood circulation - isometrics don't do that. Why not just have them walk around? Maybe go for a walk to get a drink?

Much of the general population dislike personal trainers because they seem like a bunch of pompous know-it-alls...those people must troll in here...

It's not "know it all" or "pompous" to question training methods. Every exercise, every set, every rep, every stretch, ever minute on the treadmill or whatever else you get them to do - there should be a reason for it. Every single movement should relate in some way to the client's capabilities and goals.

Asking "why?" is a completely fair and reasonable question. And then discussing, agreeing or disagreeing, elaborating, sharing experiences - that's what we have a community of trainers for. That's how we learn. I've learned something from this thread - why some trainers give isometric work to their clients. Some of it makes sense to me, some doesn't, but I keep an open mind. I don't just follow the latest fad or cult, I discuss, I listen and learn.

[jcolson]

A wall sit is painful enough for a person of healthy bodyweight. It's going to be twice as painful for an overweight client. "Active rest" should be about stimulating blood circulation - isometrics don't do that. Why not just have them walk around? Maybe go for a walk to get a drink?

It's not "know it all" or "pompous" to question training methods. Every exercise, every set, every rep, every stretch, ever minute on the treadmill or whatever else you get them to do - there should be a reason for it. Every single movement should relate in some way to the client's capabilities and goals.

Asking "why?" is a completely fair and reasonable question. And then discussing, agreeing or disagreeing, elaborating, sharing experiences - that's what we have a community of trainers for. That's how we learn. I've learned something from this thread - why some trainers give isometric work to their clients. Some of it makes sense to me, some doesn't, but I keep an open mind. I don't just follow the latest fad or cult, I discuss, I listen and learn.

This post was amazing!

reps

[nickmanzoni]

not sure how you equate those as the same thing. lockout on bench is a. a resting position and b. the full contract of the triceps and pecs, while a wall sit is the exact opposite: it's the stretching position of a squat and the most difficult position to hold.

As for holding the top of a pull-up, I'm not sure why you're scoffing at that. Are you suggesting that isometric training as a whole is useless and detrimental? I'd welcome you to come grapple with me and see who's muscles burn out first while we're fighting for a position/submission. When I first started jiu jitsu I was able to beat much more experienced people simply because my muscles have excellent endurance, and theirs don't.

I find your generalization about and narrow definition of what constitutes appropriate training for a "client" to be pretty close-minded and intolerant.

YOU again....


Here we go:

1. I never said "lockout on bench" I said "top position" you fail.
2. While holding the down position in the squat, your muscles contract, so you're ARE contracting the quads in a wall sit, otherwise you'd fall to the floor if you let your body stretch completely. You fail again
3. Isometric contractions aren't useless, I just was saying WHY NOT do that INSTEAD of wall sits? You fail.
4. I am never going to wrestle you. The fact you've written that is laughable. You fail yet again.
5. I am an avid wrestler and friends with several jiu jistsu students where we train together. Since you once again make assumptions on something you dont' know about.... guest what, once again you fail.
6. The post is: Do you guys do wall sits? NOT: Tovlakas give your views on someone's style/philosophy who doesn't agree with wall sits. STFU you fail.


These are 6 very good reasons why you should stop arguing with me.

[Hedwig]

Maybe there are better exercises for the lower body but isn't it nice to give a little variety? Is it wrong to keep it interesting?

[Ctrainer]

A wall sit is painful enough for a person of healthy bodyweight. It's going to be twice as painful for an overweight client. "Active rest" should be about stimulating blood circulation - isometrics don't do that. Why not just have them walk around? Maybe go for a walk to get a drink? .

I disagree..asking them to walk over and get a drink is "rest"...and my client is not paying me to walk around...I try to teach my clients how to deal with discomfort...they have been taking the easy way for far too long...that is why they need me...

It's not "know it all" or "pompous" to question training methods. Every exercise, every set, every rep, every stretch, ever minute on the treadmill or whatever else you get them to do - there should be a reason for it. Every single movement should relate in some way to the client's capabilities and goals. .

I agree with this exactly...that is why I didn't think it was correct to be sarcastic and biting toward trainers that use different methods that are still safe and effective..

Asking "why?" is a completely fair and reasonable question. And then discussing, agreeing or disagreeing, elaborating, sharing experiences - that's what we have a community of trainers for. That's how we learn. I've learned something from this thread - why some trainers give isometric work to their clients. Some of it makes sense to me, some doesn't, but I keep an open mind. I don't just follow the latest fad or cult, I discuss, I listen and learn.

I did too, and appreciate all the posts in this thread..I believe it is healthy and helpful for us to have open and honest discussions about our different methods...but what we have to keep in account is that there are noobs that lurk in these threads and we need to make sure that when we are discussing methods we are not being "pompous" and discredit something that has value..whether we use it or not...

[Audioslave]

The same population that would bear that squats are detrimental would be the same exact population that would have wall sits be detrimental.

Explain to me the difference between doing 30 rep squats and wall sits please?

If the answer is anything but "Actually, squats work the quads MORE than wall sits, WHILE working the hamstrings, glutes, hips, lower back, abs..." then don't bother.

Why not just hold their knees in lockout on a knee extention? It's the same damn thing.

Why not have a guy hold top position on a bench press? Why not have a guy hold top position of a pull up for minutes at a time? To what end would these work? Lactic acid threshold? For my time/money, I'd rather have trainer work me out then have me stay still.... That's me I guess....

A top position on the bench is the end of the concentric movement and the transition to eccentric, so it is not the same thing; rather think of it as taking the negative on the bench press all the way down and instead of driving the weight straight up, you make an extremely slow transition on the positive from the bottom stretch. And yes, I do think that wall sits help with muscle endurance. Why only utilize the concentric and eccentric contractions of an exercise and never challenge your muscles with an isometric contraction?

5. I am an avid wrestler and friends with several jiu jistsu students where we train together. Since you once again make assumptions on something you dont' know about.... guest what, once again you fail.

If this was true, then I would assume you would have noticed a large number of wrestling and jiu jistsu trainers who use wall sits. I have worked with several famous boxing trainers and noticed how often they are used. Growing up as a boxer, bodybuilding was always frowned upon, and for VERY good reason. It just clashes with boxing. That doesn't mean that weight training doesn't have its place, but you have to realize the differences. One thing I do believe is forcing your muscles to utilize concentric, eccentric, and isometric contractions are all useful for an athlete.

[tovlakas]

YOU again....


Here we go:

1. I never said "lockout on bench" I said "top position" you fail.
2. While holding the down position in the squat, your muscles contract, so you're ARE contracting the quads in a wall sit, otherwise you'd fall to the floor if you let your body stretch completely. You fail again
3. Isometric contractions aren't useless, I just was saying WHY NOT do that INSTEAD of wall sits? You fail.
4. I am never going to wrestle you. The fact you've written that is laughable. You fail yet again.
5. I am an avid wrestler and friends with several jiu jistsu students where we train together. Since you once again make assumptions on something you dont' know about.... guest what, once again you fail.
6. The post is: Do you guys do wall sits? NOT: Tovlakas give your views on someone's style/philosophy who doesn't agree with wall sits. STFU you fail.


These are 6 very good reasons why you should stop arguing with me.

You're a total ass. First of all, ok I accidentally switched the lockout for top position, my point still stands. Top position in bench press is nothing like a wall sit, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum. Way to argue pointless semantics that have nothing to do with the point because you're too egotistical to admit you said something idiotic.

Bottom position in a squat is still referred to as the STRETCH position, which is what I was referring to. How do you maximally flex your quad when you pose? Yep, you straighten your leg. Who's the failure now?

A wall sit IS an isometric contraction, you moron. Look it up. Way to make yourself look like an ass. Also, you never once in any of your responses suggested doing any isometric contractions so you're completely full of ****.

You missed the point of my wrestling comment. I was using it as a relatable analogy... not actually suggesting we meet somewhere and wrestle. Are you really that daft? Rhetorical question.

The question was, do you MAKE YOUR CLIENTS do wall sits, moron. And last time I checked, this is a forum for discussion and debate, not for you to masturbate your ego by pretending you're some badass know-it-all.

You are a complete jackass, go kick rocks.

[nickmanzoni]

You're a total ass. First of all, ok I accidentally switched the lockout for top position, my point still stands. Top position in bench press is nothing like a wall sit, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum. Way to argue pointless semantics that have nothing to do with the point because you're too egotistical to admit you said something idiotic.

Bottom position in a squat is still referred to as the STRETCH position, which is what I was referring to. How do you maximally flex your quad when you pose? Yep, you straighten your leg. Who's the failure now?

A wall sit IS an isometric contraction, you moron. Look it up. Way to make yourself look like an ass. Also, you never once in any of your responses suggested doing any isometric contractions so you're completely full of ****.

You missed the point of my wrestling comment. I was using it as a relatable analogy... not actually suggesting we meet somewhere and wrestle. Are you really that daft? Rhetorical question.

The question was, do you MAKE YOUR CLIENTS do wall sits, moron. And last time I checked, this is a forum for discussion and debate, not for you to masturbate your ego by pretending you're some badass know-it-all.

You are a complete jackass, go kick rocks.

Top of the bench position IS a god damn isometric contraction. You fail yet again (Now kill yourself)

You still have muscle contraction in the quad on the god damn bottom of a squat position, otherwise, people who did front squats would fall the **** over right numb nuts. You fail again (kill yourself).

If I never did isometric contractions, I'd never do any compound motions that would require me to stabilize through (chest flies, military press (upper back), pretty much every exercise has some isometric contraction element to it. God damn how many times do you fail today? Please kill yourself.

You assumed that I had no true athletic ability in regards to wrestling/ jiu jitsu, so are you really that ignorant that you just assume you know what I can and can't do over the internet? Why would you even try? Show me ONE video or picture of you doing anything half as fantastic as you claim yourself to be and then I might retract the jiu jitsu comment. Otherwise, you've failed and should kill yourself.

I have an ego because I get results, I look the part, I ACT the part, and I KNOW my stuff. Anything you're going to say over the internet won't change that. Look at my posts? They're not like I'm giving bad advice. Bottom line is I have close to a decade under my belt of experience IN the health field and into personal training. Where are your credentials? A NASM cert and... what? A cert in in failing? You're on fire today...

Finally, I'm god damn sure I'm smart enough to realize that even if I did make you see the light about wall sits, that you would look even more foolish in my eyes for being so feeble minded as to change your opinion at all. So ultimately this thread will end with you thinking whatever you will of me and I.... I will have pretended you've killed yourself and will not respond further to any comment you post from this day forward. Congrats, you no longer matter.