Paleo Diet

[Heatmiser]

But it eliminates Dairy and Grains, Oats and Milk are one of the best bodybuilding foods out there, aren't they staple?

Who said that oats are great for bodybuilding compared to other sources of carbs such as vegetables or fruit? Oats are poor in total nutrients compared to fruits and vegetables. That's why so many of them are fortified.

Milk does promote growth, and some paleo-eaters do consume it to varying degrees. Keep in mind that what's best for growth/maximum muscle size isn't necessarily the best for maximum overall health and longevity. 300lbs of muscle is great for bodybuilding, not so much if you want to live to 100.

A ton of Anadrol 50 every week is great for size, but not for overall health. Common sense needs to prevail. Some milk is not going to kill you and will likely help your gains. Doesn't mean drinking a gallon a day your entire life is necessarily ideal. Eating a candy bar on occasion will not kill you, eating 5 a day your entire life probably isn't such a good idea.

[alan aragon]

Paleos pick & choose which foods they deem righteously "correct" according to speculative ancestral dietary patterns - which were literally all over the map. I call comedy on this one.

[JustScrap]

First off the Paleo diet is nothing new. Vince Gironda advocated a variation with raw dairy and in the pre-steroid era most bodybuilders diets were identical. Even now most bodybuilder's diets are identical or similar especially the cut diets. Other performance coaches like Charles Poliquin and Dan John (meat, veggie, and berry diet) recommend a similar style of eating. As for the grains issue, that has been beaten to death. A quick google search will give you the results. Give it a try; Josh Bunch runs a bodybuilding and figure team that follows the diet. Jaquelyn Roberts; the female winner of the bodyspace competition, also follows the paleo diet. I have a blog up at GI Nutrition where I talk about how to tailor it to your goals. If anyone wants to see how they do, just give it a try for a few months.

[alan aragon]

First off the Paleo diet is nothing new. Vince Gironda advocated a variation with raw dairy and in the pre-steroid era most bodybuilders diets were identical. Even now most bodybuilder's diets are identical or similar especially the cut diets. Other performance coaches like Charles Poliquin and Dan John (meat, veggie, and berry diet) recommend a similar style of eating. As for the grains issue, that has been beaten to death. A quick google search will give you the results. Give it a try; Josh Bunch runs a bodybuilding and figure team that follows the diet. Jaquelyn Roberts; the female winner of the bodyspace competition, also follows the paleo diet. I have a blog up at GI Nutrition where I talk about how to tailor it to your goals. If anyone wants to see how they do, just give it a try for a few months.

You just named off some lollish sources for nutritional info.

[Heatmiser]

Paleos pick & choose which foods they deem righteously "correct" according to speculative ancestral dietary patterns - which were literally all over the map. I call comedy on this one.

Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know whats going on? You are the final word on nutrition, right??

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week when it comes to the traditional diets of hunter-gatherers or the bio-chemistry of food intake.

But then again I don't need to give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet. I'm glad as hell I didn't follow only your advice for the rest of my life and started to read wider variety of opinions on the subject.

I call "comedy" on you decreeing your opinion as fact and trying to convince people to not learn more about paleo and experiment with it on their own if they choose.

[Backus24]

Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know the truth. Only YOU know the truth, right?

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week.

But then again I dont give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet.

Calm down bro.


Seems like you get a little heated when someone points out the weaknesses of how you choose to eat. Alarmism arguments that bastardize an entire nutrient always have room for improvement. Especially a diet based mostly on speculation, rather than what research shows.


And obviously you haven't read much of Alan's work, as I've had more success in one year following his advice then the 6+ years I've been reading this forum.

[Heatmiser]

Calm down bro.


Seems like you get a little heated when someone points out the weaknesses of how you choose to eat. Alarmism arguments that bastardize an entire nutrient always have room for improvement. Especially a diet based mostly on speculation, rather than what research shows.


And obviously you haven't read much of Alan's work, as I've had more success in one year following his advice then the 6+ years I've been reading this forum.

LOL.. I'm not overheated.. it just makes laugh when Aragon jumps into every paleo-thread to mock it as if he's the final word on the subject.

If people are interested in the subject they should read about it and explore the topic on their own. I'm no ideologue on the subject - I don't even eat pure "orthodox" paleo myself and I'm not selling books or training clients so I have no dog in the fight aside from being very happy I tried it.

I have little respect for vegan ideology, but I don't go around on forums hoping into vegan threads looking to mock them either.

FYI, the diets of hunter-gatherers is not that speculative - they are well documented and in fact numerous pure examples still existed in the early 20th century - Inuit, Masai, Kitavins, Bushmen and many others.

[alan aragon]

Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know whats going on? You are the final word on nutrition, right??

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week when it comes to the traditional diets of hunter-gatherers or the bio-chemistry of food intake.

But then again I don't need to give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet. I'm glad as hell I didn't follow only your advice for the rest of my life and started to read wider variety of opinions on the subject.

I call "comedy" on you decreeing your opinion as fact and trying to convince people to not learn more about paleo and experiment with it on their own if they choose.

This is one of the best strawman arguments ever formed. Congrats bro.

[Backus24]

LOL.. I'm not overheated.. it just makes laugh when Aragon jumps into every paleo-thread to mock it as if he's the final word on the subject.

If people are interested in the subject they should read about it and explore the topic on their own. I'm no ideologue on the subject - I don't even eat pure "orthodox" paleo myself and I'm not selling books or training clients so I have no dog in the fight aside from being very happy I tried it.

I have little respect for vegan ideology, but I don't go around on forums hoping into vegan threads looking to mock them either.

It makes it pretty easy to mock when most of the followers bastardize an entire nutrient, as well as the people who do eat carbs and grains by saying they are poisoning themselves.

Especially when the whole diet is based on speculation rather than research. It's called being objective, and most of the people who follow that diet are not. They get bent out of shape when good points are brought up, or when asked for research.

[Heatmiser]

This is one of the best strawman arguments ever formed. Congrats bro.

Sure thing, bro.

[alan aragon]

Sure thing, bro.

I forgot to add, you pulled a strong straw man, while making an appeal to authority. Brush up on your logic before you decide to square off. Bro.

[alan aragon]

They get bent out of shape when good points are brought up, or when asked for research.

^^^Hey Heatmiser, read this quote through a couple times till it sinks in. You did get all bent out of shape when I leveled objective criticism.

[TitanFB11]

cavemen couldnt speak well, looked like crap and ultimatly, died early.

yea i want to follow their diet......


i dont get it...truly dont understand it.

do paleo dieters eat caribou and mammoths as well?

[kusok]

Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know whats going on? You are the final word on nutrition, right??

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week when it comes to the traditional diets of hunter-gatherers or the bio-chemistry of food intake.

But then again I don't need to give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet. I'm glad as hell I didn't follow only your advice for the rest of my life and started to read wider variety of opinions on the subject.

I call "comedy" on you decreeing your opinion as fact and trying to convince people to not learn more about paleo and experiment with it on their own if they choose.

wat


I think you totally misunderstood what Mr. Aragon was saying. In fact I believe I saw somewhere him saying that Paleo is a HEALTHFUL diet...

It is the grounds on which the Paleotards ok or reject certain foods that is under discussion, as they don't have scientific evidence (as they admit), but rather just speculation.

[seanb1979]

cavemen couldnt speak well, looked like crap and ultimatly, died early.

yea i want to follow their diet......


i dont get it...truly dont understand it.

do paleo dieters eat caribou and mammoths as well?

I hear they have hopes of cloning mammoths.... might be tasty?

[Heatmiser]

^^^Hey Heatmiser, read this quote through a couple times till it sinks in. You did get all bent out of shape when I leveled objective criticism.

I'm just returning a snippy attitude to you when you write things like "I call comedy"

I'm annoyed that this thread is distracting me from eating my mammoth and grub soup.

[seanb1979]

Would this be considered a jurassic diet/lifestyle? Seems somewhat close to paleo.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/m4w/1758205429.html

[Heatmiser]

Would this be considered a jurassic diet/lifestyle? Seems somewhat close to paleo.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/m4w/1758205429.html

Off by about 62 million years. Creepy though.

[On Fire]

Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/0...to-disagree-2/

Why do you think you consistently see names of other highly regarded nutrition gurus in Alan's blog comments? Coincidence?

I can tell you one thing, they're not there to pick fights and make straw-man arguments.

[Heatmiser]

wat
It is the grounds on which the Paleotards ok or reject certain foods that is under discussion, as they don't have scientific evidence (as they admit), but rather just speculation.

But there IS evidence - Including circumstantial, anecdotal, and direct scientific research.

These blogs are all written by guys with extensive education and/or researchers/doctors - not just "bros" off the street - and they discuss the science behind the biological impact that grains/gluten/dairy/fats/carbs/proteins etc. have on the body:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/
http://nephropal.blogspot.com/
http://robbwolf.com/
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html


take a look - poke around and make up your own mind.

OK I'm done for the night -

Alan: I'm not a hater or anything. I just think you are way off base on this particular topic, on others I think you are spot on. Hopefully no hard feelings. Didn't mean to come off like I was spazzing out or something lol.

[alan aragon]

Heatmiser -- One more thing. If I wanted to appeal to authority, I'd mention that I have MDs & PhDs as clients. I'm also gonna give a continuing education lecture to a group of physicians on October 21st in SoCal. Are you a physician or surgeon in need of CE credits to maintain your license to practice? Great, you'll earn 22 CEs by attending. Thus, I can call several doctors MY STUDENTS. But guess what... It's still a weak appeal to authority, since the closest thing to true 'authority' is objective research data.

[alan aragon]

Alan: I'm not a hater or anything. I just think you are way off base on this particular topic, on others I think you are spot on. Hopefully no hard feelings. Didn't mean to come off like I was spazzing out or something lol.

If you think I'm way off base, stop appealing to authority & start backing up your stance with research. Watch out for creating straw men in the process, and watch out for citing research that does not match protein intake between diets.

[Dths]

How do we have the slightest clue what cavemen ate? How do we know cavemen didn't eat grains, they aren't exactly some advanced modern technology.

Hell for all we know they could be eating their own feces.

Ignoring the fact that cavemen were overweight most of the year to allow for periods of fasting and draught and had a short lifespan how does this diet even have the slightest food hold in actual scientific facts.

[Heatmiser]

If you think I'm way off base, stop appealing to authority & start backing up your stance with research. Watch out for creating straw men in the process, and watch out for citing research that does not match protein intake between diets.

But you are the one who jumped into this thread and called it speculative with no evidence of your own to back it up.

I responded with the simple statement that people should try it and decide for themselves.

You AGAIN called it speculative and "comedy" while providing no evidence.

So why should people believe you over other experts I listed when you brought no evidence yourself other than your opinion? Simply because your interpretation of the topic differs from theirs? The reasoning/research/evidence behind the diet approach is fully explained at those sites for all who wish to see it.

Then when another poster mentioned other people (Gironda, Poliquin etc) who's diet overlapped paleo to some degree you mocked THEIR ideas. The implication is that your knowledge, experience ,education, and interpretation of the science is superior. So according to you those guys are "lollish sources" - yet you accuse me of "appealing to authority" when I stated than many other non bodybuilding PHD/Mds see the issue totally different than you.

So the reason I "appealed to authority" as you put it is because I think that people should be aware that other highly trained experts on the subject (and yes, I would consider you an expert on nutrition) disagree on the research and they can provide very detailed and extensive thoughts on the topic at their sites.

You keep saying paleo is speculative with no evidence - they say it's not and they provide evidence and reasoning at their sites. I have no interest or ability to debate the science - that's why I keep telling people to learn more on their own and try it for themselves.

[Heatmiser]

is that the long way around to learn that you feel better when eating more whole foods and less processed sh*t? yes. and when you describe it like that it practically stops even having a name. what about it is "paleo" anymore and how is it different from just "trying to eat healthy?"

Well where it differs I think is that a vegan/vegetarian might consider eating lots of grains/pastas and no meat and seed oils "healthy" while a paleo approach would be the exact opposite. Both are convinced they have the healthiest approach. They might both eschew dairy - but for totally different reasons. One lives by grains, the other eats them as a last resort. Both have die-hard supporters and "true believers" full of testimonials, converts, "evidence" etc.

So what is a "healthy" diet then? For 30+ years the government and mainstream science has promoted grains and flours and seed oils as good and saturated animal fats as bad (hence the USDA food pyramid and low-fat diet advice from doctors.) But that paradigm is beginning to change in both the mainstream public and doctors alike - witness the success of people like Atkins/Eades/Paleo etc.

I think most people - from vegans to most paleo-type eaters - would agree on the value of vegetables and some fruits compared to cokes and doughnuts and french fries, but when you get deeper into the amount and types of proteins and fats and other carbohydrates one eats the topic gets much more complicated and contradictory. Hell, paleo followers disagree amongst themsleves and vegans/vegetarians/lacto-ovo/pescetarians clearly cant seem to agree either.

Sounds like pretty much every single topic in bodybuilding and training

[kusok]

But there IS evidence - Including circumstantial, anecdotal, and direct scientific research.

These blogs are all written by guys with extensive education and/or researchers/doctors - not just "bros" off the street - and they discuss the science behind the biological impact that grains/gluten/dairy/fats/carbs/proteins etc. have on the body:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/
http://nephropal.blogspot.com/
http://robbwolf.com/
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html


take a look - poke around and make up your own mind.

OK I'm done for the night -

Alan: I'm not a hater or anything. I just think you are way off base on this particular topic, on others I think you are spot on. Hopefully no hard feelings. Didn't mean to come off like I was spazzing out or something lol.

This is great, I can give you far more links than that from doctors, PhDs, bodybuilders, Olympic athletes, nutritionists and scientists telling you that fruit is bad, sun is bad, meat is bad, water is bad, air is bad, coffee is bad, coffee is good... grains are good... etc etc etc etc etc

Can you instead direct me please to scientific data showing that grains, dairy and legumes (and whatever else Paleotards have on their black list) are bad for me?

I'm just not so sure how interested I am in speculative stuff.

[Heatmiser]

Can you instead direct me please to scientific data showing that grains, dairy and legumes (and whatever else Paleotards have on their black list) are bad for me?

Why don't you direct your questions to them?

[kusok]

Why don't you direct your questions to them?

...

So, you don't have it?

[Heatmiser]

...

So, you don't have it?

LOL.. I'm not the guy who started this thread, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging up research for your benefit.

I listed those blogs to show examples of people who know far more about it than you or I. So again, if you are truly interested in discussing the science behind say, gluten and inflammation or the role of insulin in health etc., then seriously post on Dr. Ayers blog and ask him directly. The guy has a PhD in Molecular/Cellular/Developmental Biology and taught at Harvard. I'm assuming he could provide you with far more scientific evidence on the topic than you will discover on your own.

Or ask Dr Davis at heartscanblog. The guy is a practicing cardiologist and can surely give info on wheat and grains as it pertains to heart disease. Or post a question to Robb Wolf. Or any one of the other blogs I listed.

I'm guessing you aren't really all that interested in what they have to say though, despite your insistence on people providing you with research.

[kusok]

LOL.. I'm not the guy who started this thread, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging up research for your benefit.

I listed those blogs to show examples of people who know far more about it than you or I. So again, if you are truly interested in discussing the science behind say, gluten and inflammation or the role of insulin in health etc., then seriously post on Dr. Ayers blog and ask him directly. The guy has a PhD in Molecular/Cellular/Developmental Biology and taught at Harvard. I'm assuming he could provide you with far more scientific evidence on the topic than you will discover on your own.

I'm guessing you aren't really all that interested in what he has to say on inflammation and diet though, despite your insistence on people providing you with research.

?

Surely you have at least something in your favorites on your computer or saved that you have researched yourself. Isn't there a single fact or research that you can show me? Who cares about a blog of a Harvard guy? Like I said there are blogs by scientists and doctors who claim fruit to be bad and grains to be good... so what? Let me see some scientific data.

Which research did YOU read when you made up your mind in favor of Paleo? I'd like to see it. I'd love to see some proof that grains are bad for me. As in a controlled experiment.