Rippetoe discusses Curls vs Chin Ups for Arms

[Dave76]

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=16740

I think many of you know that I'm one of the biggest Starting Strength supporters on this board. Even I get a little discouraged when I see other SS supporters claim that chin ups are all you need for arms.

Let's put an end to that discussion. If you want better arms, do curls. If you're like me and don't care about arms, don't do curls.

[SwiftyX]

There really is no "end" to this discussion. Some people's arms grow great with only compounds. Some people need some iso work. I'm one of the latter. I think I'd rather put chins into SS just due to the fact that there is no real upper back work that's not isometric.

[95whtgst]

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=16740

I think many of you know that I'm one of the biggest Starting Strength supporters on this board. Even I get a little discouraged when I see other SS supporters claim that chin ups are all you need for arms.

Let's put an end to that discussion. If you want better arms, do curls. If you're like me and don't care about arms, don't do curls.

thanks for posting this - I was a bit unclear as well on the whole topic - glad to see Ripp giving his input.

[Ironwake]

I have a feeling a ton of people are going to see this and say "OMG Rip said I can do curls!" not realizing they are still in the novice phase.

[Wildtim]

I have a feeling a ton of people are going to see this and say "OMG Rip said I can do curls!" not realizing they are still in the novice phase.

exactly.

Chins give a much bigger bang for the buck. We have to spend our limited energy on the exercises that get the best results and a chin is far more important than an exercises that only give a little bigger bicep.

[ThickAsABrick]

exactly.

Chins give a much bigger bang for the buck. We have to spend our limited energy on the exercises that get the best results and a chin is far more important than an exercises that only give a little bigger bicep.

yeah, a few sets of curls will totally zap all of your energy AND destroy your CNS, as opposed to say, squatting 3 times a week.



Anyone who isn't an idiot already knew this. See sig for more details.

also, in before untrained beginners talk about small gains in arm size without doing curls

[Ironwake]

I gained over 2 inches on my arms...

yeah, a few sets of curls will totally zap all of your energy AND destroy your CNS, as opposed to say, squatting 3 times a week.



Anyone who isn't an idiot already knew this. See sig for more details.

also, in before untrained beginners talk about small gains in arm size without doing curls

DAMN! Almost made it in ...

But seriously, running SS with chins in 6 months I put over 2'' on my Bi's ( Yes, strong 12'' Bis before I started lifting ) without curls.

I don't know if you consider that small.

That being said, I plan on adding a few sets of curls 1x per week after I transition into an intermediate program ( Starting SS again from the beginning atm )

[Dave76]

yeah, a few sets of curls will totally zap all of your energy AND destroy your CNS, as opposed to say, squatting 3 times a week.

I had you in mind when I started this thread.

I agree that a few sets of curls aren't going to do any great harm. The only reason I refuse to discuss them in an SS thread is because that's ALL some people want to talk about.

[Wildtim]

We are talking about the Novice who has already done at least 21 set workout and set 3 new PR's and is wanting to add something.

After that there just isn't a whole lot of energy left, or there shouldn't be.

Now what would you add as a finisher and acessory movement for a novice? Chins or curls.

Which do you think will benefit them the most?

[Ironwake]

We are talking about the Novice who has already done at least 21 set workout and set 3 new PR's and is wanting to add something.

After that there just isn't a whole lot of energy left, or there shouldn't be.

Now what would you add as a finisher and acessory movement for a novice? Chins or curls.

Which do you think will benefit them the most?

I think you can take this either way, which is the problem. If your goal is to get bigger biceps, I think a lot of people would say curls because they take less energy ( which you don't have much of anyways, like you said ) and isolates the muscle better.

However, If you goal is overall strength and development ( which IMO it should be, especially in the novice phase ) then of course chins are superior.

[CYTX]

However, If you goal is overall strength and development ( which IMO it should be, especially in the novice phase ) then of course chins are superior.

You know getting stronger biceps is going to help chins to some degree right? Adding curls will make your biceps stronger if done properly. This added strength will carry over to your chins. Can you just do curls and get better at chins? Obviously not but the stronger curls might meaning getting that extra half rep you've been stuck on.

This argument is beyond retarded imo.

[Ironwake]

You know getting stronger biceps is going to help chins to some degree right? Adding curls will make your biceps stronger if done properly. This added strength will carry over to your chins. Can you just do curls and get better at chins? Obviously not but the stronger curls might meaning getting that extra half rep you've been stuck on.

This argument is beyond retarded imo.

My point was that chins are not JUST for biceps, hence the "overall strength and development" comment.

[CYTX]

My point was that chins are not JUST for biceps, hence the "overall strength and development" comment.

Doesn't that pretty much go without saying


just saying

[matjusm]

exactly.

Chins give a much bigger bang for the buck. We have to spend our limited energy on the exercises that get the best results and a chin is far more important than an exercises that only give a little bigger bicep.

Yes it is true that in terms of overall development chins are superior (IMHO). However I really don't see the harm in doing a few sets of curls (not a 1h biceps session) at the end of a workout when you've gotten all your compounds out of the way.

[Ironwake]

Yes it is true that in terms of overall development chins are superior (IMHO). However I really don't see the harm in doing a few sets of curls (not a 1h biceps session) at the end of a workout when you've gotten all your compounds out of the way.

Yep

Doesn't that pretty much go without saying


just saying

Yea, so much so that you questioned it.

[CYTX]

Yea, so much so that you questioned it.

I wasn't questioning it my friend I was simply following your lead and stating the obvious in order to sound cool.

[Ironwake]

I wasn't questioning it my friend I was simply following your lead and stating the obvious in order to sound cool.

[HolyMoly]

Rippetoe gives a good explanation on how to do proper compound exercises and gives a simple routine focused on progression and deloading for building up strength and when hitting a plateau. The focus of the program is for building up a strength basis.

That said, it isn't what every beginner NEEDS to do. Sure beginners and novice trainees need to learn how to do the exercises properly, this is always a good starting point. And everyone needs to focus on compounds, but to get the whole package you also need "isolation" (you never really can isolate a muscle) exercises. This goes for bodybuilders, powerlifters, strongman, olympic lifters, everyone..

Why? You need to work on your weak areas, the chain is as strong as it's weakest link. To make it stronger you need to focus on it and use an additional (isolation) exercise to improve/strengthen it.

Starting strength is not a bodybuilding routine.. And you can tweak it if your priorities aren't focused on strength alone (3x10 + some additional exercises). Just don't go to failure, don't start with to much weight, focus on form when you are a beginner/novice, try to progress, hit pr's, deload when hitting a plateau, build the weights up again slowly, ect

That's it.

[grumble1]

Starting strength is not a bodybuilding routine.. And you can tweak it if your priorities aren't focused on strength alone (3x10 + some additional exercises). Just don't go to failure, don't start with to much weight, focus on form when you are a beginner/novice, try to progress, hit pr's, deload when hitting a plateau, build the weights up again slowly, ect

That's it.

That's one thing I wouldn't do. You'll stall out fast like that, and be left spinning your wheels. Better to stick with 3x5 until you're done with that, then once you have a strength base start experimenting with higher rep ranges.

[SuicideGripMe]

Beginners should do 2-3 sets of curls (not to failure) a week. Why? They want to, it wont kill them, it wont stop them from benching/squatting/pulling more, and it will shut them up on this site.

Yes we all know compounds are the sh*t, but a few sets of curls? Come on guys... Bill Starr incorportated curls/beach work into his routine with ease. Thats my 2 cents.

[ThickAsABrick]

Rippetoe gives a good explanation on how to do proper compound exercises and gives a simple routine focused on progression and deloading for building up strength and when hitting a plateau. The focus of the program is for building up a strength basis.

That said, it isn't what every beginner NEEDS to do. Sure beginners and novice trainees need to learn how to do the exercises properly, this is always a good starting point. And everyone needs to focus on compounds, but to get the whole package you also need "isolation" (you never really can isolate a muscle) exercises. This goes for bodybuilders, powerlifters, strongman, olympic lifters, everyone..

Why? You need to work on your weak areas, the chain is as strong as it's weakest link. To make it stronger you need to focus on it and use an additional (isolation) exercise to improve/strengthen it.

Starting strength is not a bodybuilding routine.. And you can tweak it if your priorities aren't focused on strength alone (3x10 + some additional exercises). Just don't go to failure, don't start with to much weight, focus on form when you are a beginner/novice, try to progress, hit pr's, deload when hitting a plateau, build the weights up again slowly, ect

That's it.

well said

[Farley1324]

yeah, a few sets of curls will totally zap all of your energy AND destroy your CNS, as opposed to say, squatting 3 times a week.



Anyone who isn't an idiot already knew this. See sig for more details.

also, in before untrained beginners talk about small gains in arm size without doing curls

Yeah, a few sets is curls is all you have to worry about the noobs doing.

Of course a few sets of curls here and there during SS, with proper diet and rest, are just fine.

[Zanderini]

im surprised this hasnt turned into a sh**tstorm about how you cant modify the program or you'l die with all the rip heretics going at it

[grumble1]

im surprised this hasnt turned into a sh**tstorm about how you cant modify the program or you'l die with all the rip heretics going at it

Most people don't think that the program can't have slight adjustments if you really want to. I do not think that most people think that SS can be heavily modified and retain its effectiveness. It's a matter of degree, and people so often start with a little tweak here and there and soon enough they're doing 10x10 and adding in five extra exercises for chest. The outrage is a holding action.

[zephed56]

How are you going to develop your lat flaring ability without chins and pullups?

nubs.

[SumDumGoi]

Of course a few sets of curls here and there during SS, with proper diet and rest, are just fine.

What is this horse**** you are now spouting? How many arguments have we had where I said this exact same thing and you argued that the world would implode because you added in a few sets of curls and, heaven forbid, changed the program?

[SumDumGoi]

Most people don't think that the program can't have slight adjustments if you really want to. I do not think that most people think that SS can be heavily modified and retain its effectiveness. It's a matter of degree, and people so often start with a little tweak here and there and soon enough they're doing 10x10 and adding in five extra exercises for chest. The outrage is a holding action.

Based on all of the arguments I have had on here recently regarding this very same topic I disagree. I have mentioned many slight modifications to the program in various threads that have turned into 20 page arguments of people saying you can't modify the program. After all, Ripp himself spent countless years designing this program until it became perfect. Or at least that is what I have been told.

[braden101]

Heavy low rep weighted chins and light high rep incline curls seem to do the trick for me.

[rdferguson]

Based on all of the arguments I have had on here recently regarding this very same topic I disagree. I have mentioned many slight modifications to the program in various threads that have turned into 20 page arguments of people saying you can't modify the program. After all, Ripp himself spent countless years designing this program until it became perfect. Or at least that is what I have been told.

You can modify the program. It's just that if you do, you're not really doing the program anymore, technically speaking. Some people get more hung up on this than others. Like all things, there is some intelligent discussion on these forums on the matter...and some not-so-intelligent discussions, and while I tend not to involve myself in the arguments over SS, it seems that most of the time when they do arise, both sides are actually arguing the same point (eg. "I want to change xyz to get a different result." "Don't do that, or you won't get the same results!"), unless one side honestly doesn't know the program as well as they think. Then it becomes too mindboggling stupid to even follow.

[IronAbrams]

The only people I've ever seen doing chins for biceps have some pretty atrocious form. I've never seen anyone deadlifting for quads, why the hell try to make a synergist a prime mover?