Citrulline Malate vs. L-Citrulline/L-Arginine

[mjpwooo]

Folks, can anyone point me in the right direction to explain the difference between these? I'm not focusing on lifting, more triathlon training.

Thanks for any help.

[On Fire]

Go with the CM.

[mjpwooo]

Go with the CM.

why?

[Achilles_1986]

Folks, can anyone point me in the right direction to explain the difference between these? I'm not focusing on lifting, more triathlon training.

Thanks for any help.

CM is L-Citrulline bonded to malic acid to enhance absorbtion. I have used and loved it in the past for endurance. I wouldn't worry about L-Ariginine for ANYTHING. Oral supplemenation doesn't give pumps nor increase perfromance.

[TheFugitive]

CM would be my choice, pumps are insane.

Check out Vengeance by XF.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cit.html

[mjpwooo]

CM would be my choice, pumps are insane.

Check out Vengeance by XF.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cit.html

I really don't need pumps. I'm training for an ironman-distance triathlon, and have read a little bit that CM with Beta Alanine assists with endurance.

I wasn't sure what L-Citrulline and L-Arginine do, in comparison to Citrulline Malate.

[Achilles_1986]

I really don't need pumps. I'm training for an ironman-distance triathlon, and have read a little bit that CM with Beta Alanine assists with endurance.

I wasn't sure what L-Citrulline and L-Arginine do, in comparison to Citrulline Malate.

They both work in the NOS process within the body. I figured you were not looking for pumps but just wanted to add that even 2g of oral arginine does nothing for performance so don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

CM has some good feedback, not so much on the studies, although doesn't have to many studies.

Citrulline Malate
Beta-Alanine
Cordyceps

Those would be great for ironman training. I was thinking about doing one myself and if I do these will be my training aids.

[deserusan]

CM is L-Citrulline bonded to malic acid to enhance absorbtion. I have used and loved it in the past for endurance. I wouldn't worry about L-Ariginine for ANYTHING. Oral supplemenation doesn't give pumps nor increase perfromance.

Unfortunately most of the citrulline malate on the market is an ad-mixture, not bonded.

[Achilles_1986]

Unfortunately most of the citrulline malate on the market is an ad-mixture, not bonded.

Really? Mixtures of what? I would venture to guess useless stuff like ethel esters? Which seems to be added to everything!

[deserusan]

Really? Mixtures of what? I would venture to guess useless stuff like ethel esters? Which seems to be added to everything!

Typically citrulline base and malic acid. I'm not even sure if the bonded stuff exists. I was a liitle pissed when I found this out because I like the stuff.

[Achilles_1986]

Typically citrulline base and malic acid. I'm not even sure if the bonded stuff exists. I was a liitle pissed when I found this out because I like the stuff.

Ok whats the difference between malic acid and malates? I am not to keen on my biochemistry and not sure the process of citric acid cycle. Dumb it down for me

[deserusan]

Ok whats the difference between malic acid and malates? I am not to keen on my biochemistry and not sure the process of citric acid cycle. Dumb it down for me

Malic acid = malate. The "ate" denotes an acid.

[Achilles_1986]

Malic acid = malate. The "ate" denotes an acid.

I thought so. So you haven't found any legit Cit Malate? Hmm, I am just beginning to question all companies lol.

[deserusan]

I thought so. So you haven't found any legit Cit Malate? Hmm, I am just beginning to question all companies lol.

To my knowledge not even an analytical standard for bonded citrulline malate exists.

[Achilles_1986]

To my knowledge not even an analytical standard for bonded citrulline malate exists.

Hmmm, ok last thing here, I have used bulk powders, Octane, and various products that "have" it in there and seem to reap some benefits, i.e better recovery and endurance, do you think that its solid with whatever salt is added to it even if its not bonded malic acid?

[TheFugitive]

I really don't need pumps. I'm training for an ironman-distance triathlon, and have read a little bit that CM with Beta Alanine assists with endurance.

I wasn't sure what L-Citrulline and L-Arginine do, in comparison to Citrulline Malate.

Purple wraath might be a better choice for endurance.

[TMac26]

BCAA's would be good for recovery.

[em-dubya]

Unfortunately most of the citrulline malate on the market is an ad-mixture, not bonded.

Typically citrulline base and malic acid. I'm not even sure if the bonded stuff exists. I was a liitle pissed when I found this out because I like the stuff.

Malic acid = malate. The "ate" denotes an acid.

To my knowledge not even an analytical standard for bonded citrulline malate exists.

Dan you do a lot better spreading your knowledge here , than spreading ignorance/bad publicity w/BK at the other board

[deserusan]

Hmmm, ok last thing here, I have used bulk powders, Octane, and various products that "have" it in there and seem to reap some benefits, i.e better recovery and endurance, do you think that its solid with whatever salt is added to it even if its not bonded malic acid?

Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can effect energy levels. I haven't cone across much on malate itself so much however except for oral hygeine....lol.

[Achilles_1986]

Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can.

Thanks alot Des for the info and input.

[deserusan]

Dan you do a lot better spreading your knowledge here , than spreading ignorance/bad publicity w/BK at the other board

We're all maniacs at times unfortunately. While I don't necessarily agree with everything, I do find the D-AA issue funny. It's not like the A D'Aniello or Nagata studies were some secret....lol. There is over a decades worth of research indicating it increases test, and it's worked just fine as a free form amino acid yet someone is taking all the credit while trying to discredit what isn't obvious to most of you. I can see how that would rub BK the wrong way, especially when it's confirmed to us by experts in chelation what is and isn't possible let alone cost effective/prohibitive, stable, etc. Personally, I try to ignore it these days because there is a lot of pseudoscience out there and I try very hard to focus on my own research efforts.

-D

[mjpwooo]

They both work in the NOS process within the body. I figured you were not looking for pumps but just wanted to add that even 2g of oral arginine does nothing for performance so don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

CM has some good feedback, not so much on the studies, although doesn't have to many studies.

Citrulline Malate
Beta-Alanine
Cordyceps

Those would be great for ironman training. I was thinking about doing one myself and if I do these will be my training aids.

Thanks for this feedback. Very helpful.

Purple wraath might be a better choice for endurance.

Am looking at this and Body Octane...or just buying bulk myself.

Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can effect energy levels. I haven't cone across much on malate itself so much however except for oral hygeine....lol.

deserusan, two things:
1) I PM'ed you a while back. Did you get it? If you did, and just don't respond to strangers, no problem. I just want to know that I sent it correctly.
2) Would it be wise, given my understanding of what you've written in this thread, to just buy bulk BA and bulk L-Citrulline and combine them on my own vs. buying bulk CM or a product like the BodyOctane or Purple Wrath that has them already pre-mixed?

Thanks to all replies.

[NO HYPE]

subscribed

[NO HYPE]

Folks, can anyone point me in the right direction

Nitrates.

SYNAPSE:
If you want [significantly enhanced NO production/vasodilation, the efficacy of nitrates is overwhelming in the clinical field, and is becoming more obvious in the exercise/bodybuilding community.


J Appl Physiol. 2009 Oct;107(4):1144-55. Epub 2009 Aug 6.
Bailey SJ, Winyard P, Vanhatalo A, Blackwell JR, Dimenna FJ, Wilkerson DP, Tarr J, Benjamin N, Jones AM.
Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of low-intensity exercise and enhances tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans.

Pharmacological sodium nitrate supplementation has been reported to reduce the O2 cost of submaximal exercise in humans. In this study, we hypothesized that dietary supplementation with inorganic nitrate in the form of beetroot juice (BR) would reduce the O2 cost of submaximal exercise and enhance the tolerance to high-intensity exercise. In a double-blind, placebo (PL)-controlled, crossover study, eight men (aged 19-38 yr) consumed 500 ml/day of either BR (containing 11.2 +/- 0.6 mM of nitrate) or blackcurrant cordial (as a PL, with negligible nitrate content) for 6 consecutive days and completed a series of "step" moderate-intensity and severe-intensity exercise tests on the last 3 days. On days 4-6, plasma nitrite concentration was significantly greater following dietary nitrate supplementation compared with PL (BR: 273 +/- 44 vs. PL: 140 +/- 50 nM; P < 0.05), and systolic blood pressure was significantly reduced (BR: 124 +/- 2 vs. PL: 132 +/- 5 mmHg; P < 0.01). During moderate exercise, nitrate supplementation reduced muscle fractional O2 extraction (as estimated using near-infrared spectroscopy). The gain of the increase in pulmonary O2 uptake following the onset of moderate exercise was reduced by 19% in the BR condition (BR: 8.6 +/- 0.7 vs. PL: 10.8 +/- 1.6 ml.min(-1).W(-1); P < 0.05). During severe exercise, the O2 uptake slow component was reduced (BR: 0.57 +/- 0.20 vs. PL: 0.74 +/- 0.24 l/min; P < 0.05), and the time-to-exhaustion was extended (BR: 675 +/- 203 vs. PL: 583 +/- 145 s; P < 0.05). The reduced O2 cost of exercise following increased dietary nitrate intake has important implications for our understanding of the factors that regulate mitochondrial respiration and muscle contractile energetics in humans.


Acta Physiol (Oxf). 2007 Sep;191(1):59-66. Epub 2007 Jul 17.
Larsen FJ, Weitzberg E, Lundberg JO, Ekblom B.
Effects of dietary nitrate on oxygen cost during exercise.

AIM: Nitric oxide (NO), synthesized from l-arginine by NO synthases, plays a role in adaptation to physical exercise by modulating blood flow, muscular contraction and glucose uptake and in the control of cellular respiration. Recent studies show that NO can be formed in vivo also from the reduction of inorganic nitrate (NO(3) (-)) and nitrite (NO(2) (-)). The diet constitutes a major source of nitrate, and vegetables are particularly rich in this anion. The aim of this study was to investigate if dietary nitrate had any effect on metabolic and circulatory parameters during exercise. METHOD: In a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study, we tested the effect of dietary nitrate on physiological and metabolic parameters during exercise. Nine healthy young well-trained men performed submaximal and maximal work tests on a cycle ergometer after two separate 3-day periods of dietary supplementation with sodium nitrate (0.1 mmol kg(-1) day-1) or an equal amount of sodium chloride (placebo). RESULTS: The oxygen cost at submaximal exercise was reduced after nitrate supplementation compared with placebo. On an average Vo(2) decreased from 2.98 +/- 0.57 during CON to 2.82 +/- 0.58 L min(-1) during NIT (P < 0.02) over the four lowest submaximal work rates. Gross efficiency increased from 19.7 +/- 1.6 during CON to 21.1 +/- 1.3% during NIT (P < 0.01) over the four lowest work rates. There was no difference in heart rate, lactate [Hla], ventilation (VE), VE/Vo(2) or respiratory exchange ratio between nitrate and placebo during any of the submaximal work rates. CONCLUSION: We conclude that dietary nitrate supplementation, in an amount achievable through a diet rich in vegetables, results in a lower oxygen demand during submaximal work. This highly surprising effect occurred without an accompanying increase in lactate concentration, indicating that the energy production had become more efficient. The mechanism of action needs to be clarified but a likely first step is the in vivo reduction of dietary nitrate into bioactive nitrogen oxides including nitrite and NO.

[deserusan]

deserusan, two things:
1) I PM'ed you a while back. Did you get it? If you did, and just don't respond to strangers, no problem. I just want to know that I sent it correctly.

My PM is usually full and I don't read a lot of them admittedly.

2) Would it be wise, given my understanding of what you've written in this thread, to just buy bulk BA and bulk L-Citrulline and combine them on my own vs. buying bulk CM or a product like the BodyOctane or Purple Wrath that has them already pre-mixed?

Thanks to all replies.

I like all the products in question so you can't go wrong with them. I guess it depends on what kind of dosing threshold you want to achieve. Buying in bulk makes this extremely easy but then again, a lot of bulk products have questionable QC. This is why when I do buy bulk I go with NOW, Supplement Direct, etc. Right now, I'm using a pure citrulline from Japanese pharmaceutical firm that is USP grade that the typical consumer cannot get in bulk. In Japan, citrulline and other amino acids like ornithine are considered therapeutic drugs under the FOSHU system.

[Robboe]

Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can effect energy levels. I haven't cone across much on malate itself so much however except for oral hygeine....lol.

Malic acid can be helpful for those suffering from fibromyalgia.

[mjpwooo]

I like all the products in question so you can't go wrong with them. I guess it depends on what kind of dosing threshold you want to achieve. Buying in bulk makes this extremely easy but then again, a lot of bulk products have questionable QC. This is why when I do buy bulk I go with NOW, Supplement Direct, etc. Right now, I'm using a pure citrulline from Japanese pharmaceutical firm that is USP grade that the typical consumer cannot get in bulk. In Japan, citrulline and other amino acids like ornithine are considered therapeutic drugs under the FOSHU system.

NOW and SD are the two companies that have what I'm looking for and they are also the best price/serving.

For an iron-distance triathlon, or more accurately for the TRAINING for the iron-distance triathlon, what type of dosing would be appropriate? Heavy training weeks can be in excess of 15 hours. Long runs are at least 12 miles/100 minutes. Long bikes are in excess of 3 hours, and closer to 5.

I also was going to add some free-BCAAs and Glutamine, but I think my diet will be adequate for me to not NEED them. I'd rather go with BA and CM than BCAA/Glut, if I had to choose.

(PS- this is basically what the PM was for. At least I know I wasn't nuts...)

[mjpwooo]

bump

[mjpwooo]

NOW and SD are the two companies that have what I'm looking for and they are also the best price/serving.

For an iron-distance triathlon, or more accurately for the TRAINING for the iron-distance triathlon, what type of dosing would be appropriate? Heavy training weeks can be in excess of 15 hours. Long runs are at least 12 miles/100 minutes. Long bikes are in excess of 3 hours, and closer to 5.

I also was going to add some free-BCAAs and Glutamine, but I think my diet will be adequate for me to not NEED them. I'd rather go with BA and CM than BCAA/Glut, if I had to choose.

(PS- this is basically what the PM was for. At least I know I wasn't nuts...)

last bump, promise. Hoping dese checks this post out one last time.

[Fickes]

They both work in the NOS process within the body. I figured you were not looking for pumps but just wanted to add that even 2g of oral arginine does nothing for performance so don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

CM has some good feedback, not so much on the studies, although doesn't have to many studies.

Citrulline Malate
Beta-Alanine
Cordyceps

Those would be great for ironman training. I was thinking about doing one myself and if I do these will be my training aids.

L-Citrulline is better and has a better track record than L-Arginine, but L-Arginine DOES work.