Bodybuilding.com Information Motivation Supplementation
in:

    The World’s #1 Bodybuilding And Fitness Forum - Save Up To 50% Off Retail Prices In Our Bodybuilding.com Store!

Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 36
  1. #1
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline

    Citrulline Malate vs. L-Citrulline/L-Arginine

    Folks, can anyone point me in the right direction to explain the difference between these? I'm not focusing on lifting, more triathlon training.

    Thanks for any help.
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    Humble Bro On Fire's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2009
    Location: Surrey, BC, Canada
    Age: 31
    Stats: 5'9", 190 lbs
    Posts: 7,229
    Rep Power: 4266
    On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) On Fire has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit On Fire's BodySpace
    On Fire is offline
    Go with the CM.
    Don't tell me what you want to do, do it.
    Barbarian Requirements Pre-2011 complete: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJSVOLItqMA
    Working on my "core", because I'm not a fat fuk.
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline
    Originally Posted by On Fire View Post
    Go with the CM.
    why?
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline
    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    Folks, can anyone point me in the right direction to explain the difference between these? I'm not focusing on lifting, more triathlon training.

    Thanks for any help.
    CM is L-Citrulline bonded to malic acid to enhance absorbtion. I have used and loved it in the past for endurance. I wouldn't worry about L-Ariginine for ANYTHING. Oral supplemenation doesn't give pumps nor increase perfromance.
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    25% off all BPI Products TheFugitive's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States
    Stats: 6'0", 220 lbs
    Posts: 24,604
    BodyPoints: 97
    Rep Power: 572174
    TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit TheFugitive's BodySpace
    TheFugitive is online now
    CM would be my choice, pumps are insane.

    Check out Vengeance by XF.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cit.html
    Last edited by TheFugitive; 05-13-2010 at 06:45 PM.
    BPI Sports-Forum Director

    BPI Sports™ | Cutler Nutrition™ | Image Sports™

    1MR Crew

    BMBC

    Official Supp. Misc Beer Crew-IPA Addict
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline
    Originally Posted by TheFugitive View Post
    CM would be my choice, pumps are insane.

    Check out Vengeance by XF.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cit.html
    I really don't need pumps. I'm training for an ironman-distance triathlon, and have read a little bit that CM with Beta Alanine assists with endurance.

    I wasn't sure what L-Citrulline and L-Arginine do, in comparison to Citrulline Malate.
    Reply With Quote

  7. #7
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline
    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    I really don't need pumps. I'm training for an ironman-distance triathlon, and have read a little bit that CM with Beta Alanine assists with endurance.

    I wasn't sure what L-Citrulline and L-Arginine do, in comparison to Citrulline Malate.
    They both work in the NOS process within the body. I figured you were not looking for pumps but just wanted to add that even 2g of oral arginine does nothing for performance so don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

    CM has some good feedback, not so much on the studies, although doesn't have to many studies.

    Citrulline Malate
    Beta-Alanine
    Cordyceps

    Those would be great for ironman training. I was thinking about doing one myself and if I do these will be my training aids.
    Reply With Quote

  8. #8
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    CM is L-Citrulline bonded to malic acid to enhance absorbtion. I have used and loved it in the past for endurance. I wouldn't worry about L-Ariginine for ANYTHING. Oral supplemenation doesn't give pumps nor increase perfromance.
    Unfortunately most of the citrulline malate on the market is an ad-mixture, not bonded.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  9. #9
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Unfortunately most of the citrulline malate on the market is an ad-mixture, not bonded.
    Really? Mixtures of what? I would venture to guess useless stuff like ethel esters? Which seems to be added to everything!
    Reply With Quote

  10. #10
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    Really? Mixtures of what? I would venture to guess useless stuff like ethel esters? Which seems to be added to everything!
    Typically citrulline base and malic acid. I'm not even sure if the bonded stuff exists. I was a liitle pissed when I found this out because I like the stuff.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  11. #11
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Typically citrulline base and malic acid. I'm not even sure if the bonded stuff exists. I was a liitle pissed when I found this out because I like the stuff.
    Ok whats the difference between malic acid and malates? I am not to keen on my biochemistry and not sure the process of citric acid cycle. Dumb it down for me
    Reply With Quote

  12. #12
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    Ok whats the difference between malic acid and malates? I am not to keen on my biochemistry and not sure the process of citric acid cycle. Dumb it down for me
    Malic acid = malate. The "ate" denotes an acid.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  13. #13
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Malic acid = malate. The "ate" denotes an acid.
    I thought so. So you haven't found any legit Cit Malate? Hmm, I am just beginning to question all companies lol.
    Reply With Quote

  14. #14
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    I thought so. So you haven't found any legit Cit Malate? Hmm, I am just beginning to question all companies lol.
    To my knowledge not even an analytical standard for bonded citrulline malate exists.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  15. #15
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    To my knowledge not even an analytical standard for bonded citrulline malate exists.
    Hmmm, ok last thing here, I have used bulk powders, Octane, and various products that "have" it in there and seem to reap some benefits, i.e better recovery and endurance, do you think that its solid with whatever salt is added to it even if its not bonded malic acid?
    Reply With Quote

  16. #16
    25% off all BPI Products TheFugitive's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States
    Stats: 6'0", 220 lbs
    Posts: 24,604
    BodyPoints: 97
    Rep Power: 572174
    TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TheFugitive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit TheFugitive's BodySpace
    TheFugitive is online now
    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    I really don't need pumps. I'm training for an ironman-distance triathlon, and have read a little bit that CM with Beta Alanine assists with endurance.

    I wasn't sure what L-Citrulline and L-Arginine do, in comparison to Citrulline Malate.
    Purple wraath might be a better choice for endurance.
    BPI Sports-Forum Director

    BPI Sports™ | Cutler Nutrition™ | Image Sports™

    1MR Crew

    BMBC

    Official Supp. Misc Beer Crew-IPA Addict
    Reply With Quote

  17. #17
    Das it mayne TMac26's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2009
    Location: North Carolina, United States
    Stats: 7'1", 999 lbs
    Posts: 22,519
    Rep Power: 79039
    TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) TMac26 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit TMac26's BodySpace
    TMac26 is offline
    BCAA's would be good for recovery.
    Blue Star Nutraceuticals™
    Real people. Real products. Real results.™
    www.BlueStarNutraceuticals.com

    Blue Star™ Ambassador

    And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Crispy bacon Krew.
    Reply With Quote

  18. #18
    Banned em-dubya's Avatar
    Join Date: Feb 2008
    Posts: 9,993
    Rep Power: 0
    em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) em-dubya has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit em-dubya's BodySpace
    em-dubya is offline

    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Unfortunately most of the citrulline malate on the market is an ad-mixture, not bonded.
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Typically citrulline base and malic acid. I'm not even sure if the bonded stuff exists. I was a liitle pissed when I found this out because I like the stuff.
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Malic acid = malate. The "ate" denotes an acid.
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    To my knowledge not even an analytical standard for bonded citrulline malate exists.
    Dan you do a lot better spreading your knowledge here , than spreading ignorance/bad publicity w/BK at the other board
    Reply With Quote

  19. #19
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    Hmmm, ok last thing here, I have used bulk powders, Octane, and various products that "have" it in there and seem to reap some benefits, i.e better recovery and endurance, do you think that its solid with whatever salt is added to it even if its not bonded malic acid?
    Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can effect energy levels. I haven't cone across much on malate itself so much however except for oral hygeine....lol.
    Last edited by deserusan; 05-13-2010 at 09:14 PM.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  20. #20
    Loves "Whispering Eye's" Achilles_1986's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2009
    Stats: 6'4", 238 lbs
    Posts: 2,078
    Rep Power: 3013
    Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Achilles_1986 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Achilles_1986's BodySpace
    Achilles_1986 is offline

    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can.
    Thanks alot Des for the info and input.
    Reply With Quote

  21. #21
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by em-dubya View Post
    Dan you do a lot better spreading your knowledge here , than spreading ignorance/bad publicity w/BK at the other board
    We're all maniacs at times unfortunately. While I don't necessarily agree with everything, I do find the D-AA issue funny. It's not like the A D'Aniello or Nagata studies were some secret....lol. There is over a decades worth of research indicating it increases test, and it's worked just fine as a free form amino acid yet someone is taking all the credit while trying to discredit what isn't obvious to most of you. I can see how that would rub BK the wrong way, especially when it's confirmed to us by experts in chelation what is and isn't possible let alone cost effective/prohibitive, stable, etc. Personally, I try to ignore it these days because there is a lot of pseudoscience out there and I try very hard to focus on my own research efforts.

    -D
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  22. #22
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    They both work in the NOS process within the body. I figured you were not looking for pumps but just wanted to add that even 2g of oral arginine does nothing for performance so don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

    CM has some good feedback, not so much on the studies, although doesn't have to many studies.

    Citrulline Malate
    Beta-Alanine
    Cordyceps

    Those would be great for ironman training. I was thinking about doing one myself and if I do these will be my training aids.
    Thanks for this feedback. Very helpful.

    Originally Posted by TheFugitive View Post
    Purple wraath might be a better choice for endurance.
    Am looking at this and Body Octane...or just buying bulk myself.

    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can effect energy levels. I haven't cone across much on malate itself so much however except for oral hygeine....lol.
    deserusan, two things:
    1) I PM'ed you a while back. Did you get it? If you did, and just don't respond to strangers, no problem. I just want to know that I sent it correctly.
    2) Would it be wise, given my understanding of what you've written in this thread, to just buy bulk BA and bulk L-Citrulline and combine them on my own vs. buying bulk CM or a product like the BodyOctane or Purple Wrath that has them already pre-mixed?

    Thanks to all replies.
    Reply With Quote

  23. #23
    Banned NO HYPE's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2006
    Posts: 15,414
    BodyPoints: 21764
    Rep Power: 0
    NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit NO HYPE's BodySpace
    NO HYPE is offline

    Talking

    subscribed
    Reply With Quote

  24. #24
    Banned NO HYPE's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2006
    Posts: 15,414
    BodyPoints: 21764
    Rep Power: 0
    NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) NO HYPE has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit NO HYPE's BodySpace
    NO HYPE is offline
    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    Folks, can anyone point me in the right direction
    Nitrates.

    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    SYNAPSE:
    If you want [significantly enhanced NO production/vasodilation, the efficacy of nitrates is overwhelming in the clinical field, and is becoming more obvious in the exercise/bodybuilding community.


    J Appl Physiol. 2009 Oct;107(4):1144-55. Epub 2009 Aug 6.
    Bailey SJ, Winyard P, Vanhatalo A, Blackwell JR, Dimenna FJ, Wilkerson DP, Tarr J, Benjamin N, Jones AM.
    Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of low-intensity exercise and enhances tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans.

    Pharmacological sodium nitrate supplementation has been reported to reduce the O2 cost of submaximal exercise in humans. In this study, we hypothesized that dietary supplementation with inorganic nitrate in the form of beetroot juice (BR) would reduce the O2 cost of submaximal exercise and enhance the tolerance to high-intensity exercise. In a double-blind, placebo (PL)-controlled, crossover study, eight men (aged 19-38 yr) consumed 500 ml/day of either BR (containing 11.2 +/- 0.6 mM of nitrate) or blackcurrant cordial (as a PL, with negligible nitrate content) for 6 consecutive days and completed a series of "step" moderate-intensity and severe-intensity exercise tests on the last 3 days. On days 4-6, plasma nitrite concentration was significantly greater following dietary nitrate supplementation compared with PL (BR: 273 +/- 44 vs. PL: 140 +/- 50 nM; P < 0.05), and systolic blood pressure was significantly reduced (BR: 124 +/- 2 vs. PL: 132 +/- 5 mmHg; P < 0.01). During moderate exercise, nitrate supplementation reduced muscle fractional O2 extraction (as estimated using near-infrared spectroscopy). The gain of the increase in pulmonary O2 uptake following the onset of moderate exercise was reduced by 19% in the BR condition (BR: 8.6 +/- 0.7 vs. PL: 10.8 +/- 1.6 ml.min(-1).W(-1); P < 0.05). During severe exercise, the O2 uptake slow component was reduced (BR: 0.57 +/- 0.20 vs. PL: 0.74 +/- 0.24 l/min; P < 0.05), and the time-to-exhaustion was extended (BR: 675 +/- 203 vs. PL: 583 +/- 145 s; P < 0.05). The reduced O2 cost of exercise following increased dietary nitrate intake has important implications for our understanding of the factors that regulate mitochondrial respiration and muscle contractile energetics in humans.


    Acta Physiol (Oxf). 2007 Sep;191(1):59-66. Epub 2007 Jul 17.
    Larsen FJ, Weitzberg E, Lundberg JO, Ekblom B.
    Effects of dietary nitrate on oxygen cost during exercise.

    AIM: Nitric oxide (NO), synthesized from l-arginine by NO synthases, plays a role in adaptation to physical exercise by modulating blood flow, muscular contraction and glucose uptake and in the control of cellular respiration. Recent studies show that NO can be formed in vivo also from the reduction of inorganic nitrate (NO(3) (-)) and nitrite (NO(2) (-)). The diet constitutes a major source of nitrate, and vegetables are particularly rich in this anion. The aim of this study was to investigate if dietary nitrate had any effect on metabolic and circulatory parameters during exercise. METHOD: In a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study, we tested the effect of dietary nitrate on physiological and metabolic parameters during exercise. Nine healthy young well-trained men performed submaximal and maximal work tests on a cycle ergometer after two separate 3-day periods of dietary supplementation with sodium nitrate (0.1 mmol kg(-1) day-1) or an equal amount of sodium chloride (placebo). RESULTS: The oxygen cost at submaximal exercise was reduced after nitrate supplementation compared with placebo. On an average Vo(2) decreased from 2.98 +/- 0.57 during CON to 2.82 +/- 0.58 L min(-1) during NIT (P < 0.02) over the four lowest submaximal work rates. Gross efficiency increased from 19.7 +/- 1.6 during CON to 21.1 +/- 1.3% during NIT (P < 0.01) over the four lowest work rates. There was no difference in heart rate, lactate [Hla], ventilation (VE), VE/Vo(2) or respiratory exchange ratio between nitrate and placebo during any of the submaximal work rates. CONCLUSION: We conclude that dietary nitrate supplementation, in an amount achievable through a diet rich in vegetables, results in a lower oxygen demand during submaximal work. This highly surprising effect occurred without an accompanying increase in lactate concentration, indicating that the energy production had become more efficient. The mechanism of action needs to be clarified but a likely first step is the in vivo reduction of dietary nitrate into bioactive nitrogen oxides including nitrite and NO.
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 05-14-2010 at 08:36 AM.
    Reply With Quote

  25. #25
    nom nom nom deserusan's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2004
    Location: New York, United States
    Age: 34
    Stats: 5'11", 222 lbs
    Posts: 29,340
    BodyPoints: 101388
    Rep Power: 57751
    deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) deserusan has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit deserusan's BodySpace
    deserusan is offline
    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    deserusan, two things:
    1) I PM'ed you a while back. Did you get it? If you did, and just don't respond to strangers, no problem. I just want to know that I sent it correctly.
    My PM is usually full and I don't read a lot of them admittedly.

    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    2) Would it be wise, given my understanding of what you've written in this thread, to just buy bulk BA and bulk L-Citrulline and combine them on my own vs. buying bulk CM or a product like the BodyOctane or Purple Wrath that has them already pre-mixed?

    Thanks to all replies.
    I like all the products in question so you can't go wrong with them. I guess it depends on what kind of dosing threshold you want to achieve. Buying in bulk makes this extremely easy but then again, a lot of bulk products have questionable QC. This is why when I do buy bulk I go with NOW, Supplement Direct, etc. Right now, I'm using a pure citrulline from Japanese pharmaceutical firm that is USP grade that the typical consumer cannot get in bulk. In Japan, citrulline and other amino acids like ornithine are considered therapeutic drugs under the FOSHU system.
    "I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

    Heretic....
    Reply With Quote

  26. #26
    Geordie Boot Boy Robboe's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2005
    Location: Newcastle, Tyne & Wear, United Kingdom (Great Britain)
    Posts: 15,515
    BodyPoints: 8053
    Rep Power: 18244
    Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Robboe has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Robboe's BodySpace
    Robboe is offline
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    Most definitely there is a great benefit whether bonded or not. I do firmly belive however that it is the citrulline itself which doing the "work" so to speak. A lot of kreb's cycle intermediaries can't enter the cycle like many are lead to believe such as fumarates orally. On the other hand, citrates can and it appears chelates derived from malic acid (dimagnesium malate) can effect energy levels. I haven't cone across much on malate itself so much however except for oral hygeine....lol.
    Malic acid can be helpful for those suffering from fibromyalgia.
    www.GetDS.com

    Get DS in Europe!!:
    www.drivensports.co.uk

    Join DS on Facebook and Twitter for EXCLUSIVE info and promotions!!

    http://www.facebook.com/DrivenSports
    http://twitter.com/drivensports

    Craze :: New & Improved Activate Xtreme :: Triazole :: Lean Xtreme

    Craze: Performance Fuel -- The Uprising Has Begun
    Reply With Quote

  27. #27
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline
    Originally Posted by deserusan View Post
    I like all the products in question so you can't go wrong with them. I guess it depends on what kind of dosing threshold you want to achieve. Buying in bulk makes this extremely easy but then again, a lot of bulk products have questionable QC. This is why when I do buy bulk I go with NOW, Supplement Direct, etc. Right now, I'm using a pure citrulline from Japanese pharmaceutical firm that is USP grade that the typical consumer cannot get in bulk. In Japan, citrulline and other amino acids like ornithine are considered therapeutic drugs under the FOSHU system.
    NOW and SD are the two companies that have what I'm looking for and they are also the best price/serving.

    For an iron-distance triathlon, or more accurately for the TRAINING for the iron-distance triathlon, what type of dosing would be appropriate? Heavy training weeks can be in excess of 15 hours. Long runs are at least 12 miles/100 minutes. Long bikes are in excess of 3 hours, and closer to 5.

    I also was going to add some free-BCAAs and Glutamine, but I think my diet will be adequate for me to not NEED them. I'd rather go with BA and CM than BCAA/Glut, if I had to choose.

    (PS- this is basically what the PM was for. At least I know I wasn't nuts...)
    Reply With Quote

  28. #28
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline
    bump
    Reply With Quote

  29. #29
    Registered User mjpwooo's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Age: 39
    Posts: 162
    Rep Power: 24
    mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000) mjpwooo is a splendid one to behold. (+10000)
    mjpwooo is offline
    Originally Posted by mjpwooo View Post
    NOW and SD are the two companies that have what I'm looking for and they are also the best price/serving.

    For an iron-distance triathlon, or more accurately for the TRAINING for the iron-distance triathlon, what type of dosing would be appropriate? Heavy training weeks can be in excess of 15 hours. Long runs are at least 12 miles/100 minutes. Long bikes are in excess of 3 hours, and closer to 5.

    I also was going to add some free-BCAAs and Glutamine, but I think my diet will be adequate for me to not NEED them. I'd rather go with BA and CM than BCAA/Glut, if I had to choose.

    (PS- this is basically what the PM was for. At least I know I wasn't nuts...)
    last bump, promise. Hoping dese checks this post out one last time.
    Reply With Quote

  30. #30
    Registered User Fickes's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2008
    Posts: 5
    Rep Power: 0
    Fickes will become famous soon enough. (+50) Fickes will become famous soon enough. (+50)
    Fickes is offline
    Originally Posted by Achilles_1986 View Post
    They both work in the NOS process within the body. I figured you were not looking for pumps but just wanted to add that even 2g of oral arginine does nothing for performance so don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

    CM has some good feedback, not so much on the studies, although doesn't have to many studies.

    Citrulline Malate
    Beta-Alanine
    Cordyceps

    Those would be great for ironman training. I was thinking about doing one myself and if I do these will be my training aids.
    L-Citrulline is better and has a better track record than L-Arginine, but L-Arginine DOES work.
    Reply With Quote

Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-15-2008, 12:06 AM
  2. NO cycle - Citrulline & Arginine
    By Strong-Island in forum Supplement Science
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-08-2006, 10:06 AM
  3. Citrulline Malate or Arginine?
    By Clemenza in forum Supplements
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-06-2005, 08:03 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-04-2005, 09:21 AM
  5. Citrulline Malate confused with Arginine
    By pure_muscle in forum Supplements
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-24-2005, 07:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Home Store Products Careers Help Contact Us Terms of Use Checkout