Bodybuilding.com Information Motivation Supplementation
in:

    The World’s #1 Bodybuilding And Fitness Forum - Save Up To 50% Off Retail Prices In Our Bodybuilding.com Store!

Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 42
  1. #1
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline

    "Fat oxidation" vs "fat loss"

    In keeping up with the "Stuff I Don't Quite Understand (TM)" series, here's another concept that I still have yet to wrap my head around.

    The concept of "fat oxidation" is often to as being a prominent marker of fat loss. Lyle McDonald, for example, has his UD2 diet built entirely around the concept of increasing fat oxidation as much as possible in the "catabolic" phase of the week. He has you start off with a "depletion" workout to burn up glycogen stores as much as possible. He then says that by doing so, whole-body fat oxidation increases - so he has the depletion workout basically set up as a sort of "trick" to get you to burn more fat.

    My question: what does this exactly mean? Of course whole-body fat oxidation is going to increase, but why would that make a difference by the end of the week when you recarb? Hasn't all of the data showing that keto diets aren't superior to non-keto diets kind of put this notion to rest? Or the data showing that the "fat burning" cardio zone is a myth?

    Is "an increase in fat oxidation" synonymous here with "upregulation of energy expenditure?" Or is something else going on?

    My thinking is that perhaps it has something to do with causing glycogen supercompensation to occur on the refeed, but still, why does the depletion workout matter? So let's say you just do a normal workout and end up 1/2 depleted. So whole-body fat oxidation doesn't occur, but glycogen stores slowly dissipate by themselves. Then the next workout you end up depleting the other half. So you'd still end up "dry" when the carbup came around, and glycogen supercompensation would still occur.

    So would this not be a better approach, since you'd probably be able to perform better in a non-depleted state? But there seems to be something magical about "increased whole-body fat oxidation" that I'm not getting here.

    A cluster**** of questions indeed. Anyone know?
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Here's another example: Lyle has also mentioned that in formerly obese people that are lean because they have dieted down significantly, a lot of biological markers remain "off" from naturally lean people. This data is usually interpreted to mean that the body is defending its previously 300-400 lb "set point" or something like that.

    The three that I've heard mentioned are:

    1) leptin "resistance" occuring, where the lowered leptin levels from the loss in fat are no longer enough to provide satiety
    2) decrease in energy expenditure, either from BMR or things like NEAT (presumably as a reaction to the decrease in leptin)
    3) and of course, the almighty "decrease in fat oxidation"

    So what does #3 mean really, and how does it differ from #2? Does fat oxidation decreasing basically mean carb/protein oxidation increasing, meaning that calorie partioning goes right into the gutter? This would lead, I guess, to a long-term decrease in glycogen storage or something like that.

    Am I close? getting warmer?

    edit: also, let's try to avoid this thread turning into another keto/paleo vs the world flamewar, ok?
    Last edited by Insight; 05-11-2010 at 07:27 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Also just got this as a rep message:
    "Hope Emma prime into your questions, cause I'm highly interested to under the cliffs."

    Emma-Leigh? Any thoughts? Your adoring public awaits
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Registered User DriftMonster's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2006
    Location: Georgia, United States
    Age: 28
    Stats: 5'7", 175 lbs
    Posts: 1,487
    BodyPoints: 753
    Rep Power: 223
    DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) DriftMonster has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    Visit DriftMonster's BodySpace
    DriftMonster is offline
    - In to stay updated on Insight's "Stuff I Don't Quite Understand (TM)" series...
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=170889621&posted=1#post170889621

    Conclusion: EAT THE WHOLE DAMN EGG!
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    Registered User ajmemeni_cro's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2010
    Location: Croatia
    Age: 28
    Posts: 85
    Rep Power: 5
    ajmemeni_cro is on a distinguished road. (+10)
    Visit ajmemeni_cro's BodySpace
    ajmemeni_cro is offline
    seems to me lyle got it all overcomplicated & fat oxidation does nothing magical. I mean, if low bf% is posible with wave length's "exercise, eat protein & keep calorie deficit" than increased fat oxidation in catabolic fase means **** :shrug:

    not sure, though, if both "diets" work as well for really low bf%, but pretty sure they should work at the same rate if isocalorical.
    Last edited by ajmemeni_cro; 05-12-2010 at 05:25 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2009
    Location: United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 6'1", 215 lbs
    Posts: 2,788
    Rep Power: 4769
    iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit iDrive's BodySpace
    iDrive is offline
    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    In keeping up with the "Stuff I Don't Quite Understand (TM)" series, here's another concept that I still have yet to wrap my head around.

    The concept of "fat oxidation" is often to as being a prominent marker of fat loss.
    IMO they are just synonyms because you cant lose fat without oxidizing the fat.

    Lyle McDonald, for example, has his UD2 diet built entirely around the concept of increasing fat oxidation as much as possible in the "catabolic" phase of the week. He has you start off with a "depletion" workout to burn up glycogen stores as much as possible. He then says that by doing so, whole-body fat oxidation increases - so he has the depletion workout basically set up as a sort of "trick" to get you to burn more fat.

    My question: what does this exactly mean? Of course whole-body fat oxidation is going to increase, but why would that make a difference by the end of the week when you recarb? Hasn't all of the data showing that keto diets aren't superior to non-keto diets kind of put this notion to rest? Or the data showing that the "fat burning" cardio zone is a myth?

    Is "an increase in fat oxidation" synonymous here with "upregulation of energy expenditure?" Or is something else going on?

    My thinking is that perhaps it has something to do with causing glycogen supercompensation to occur on the refeed, but still, why does the depletion workout matter?
    I think it's interesting as well since in his article How we get fat he talks about how fat oxidation is blunted when carbs/protein is ingested but carb/protein utilization is increased and vice versa and ends the article saying total calories are still the main determinant meaning the macro profile means sh!t anyway.

    I've always been skeptical of UD 2.0 I don't quite get why you'd want to deplete glycogen stores and have a few absolutely hellish workouts and then carb up to do it all again. But there are wackier diet protocols out there


    So would this not be a better approach, since you'd probably be able to perform better in a non-depleted state? But there seems to be something magical about "increased whole-body fat oxidation" that I'm not getting here.
    "whole-body fat oxidation" made me lulz because I only like oxidizing fat in my fingers and toes I honestly don't know what Lyle means by that.

    I've often wondered why "fat oxidation" matters in the long run since if you're in a deficit you're going to be oxidizing plenty of fat anyway.

    IMO it's a buzz word used mainly to move units of xxx product, treadmill, cardio equip, supplement, infomercial-bull.
    You don't try to build a wall.
    You don't set out to build a wall.
    You don't say, "I'm going to build the biggest, baddest, greatest wall that's ever been built!".
    You don't start there.

    You say, "I'm going to lay this brick as perfectly as a brick can be laid.".
    You do that every single day, and soon you'll have a wall.
    Reply With Quote

  7. #7
    Registered User rgurleyjr's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2010
    Age: 33
    Posts: 121
    Rep Power: 141
    rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    rgurleyjr is offline
    I don't know what to believe about Lyle's "whole-body fat oxidation" talk. Oxidizing body fat while depleted is good and all but if you end up with a cal surplus at the end of the day, the glycogen depletion was pointless. Besides, I thought the body used liver glycogen status to determine oxidation, not muscle glycogen? Depleting the liver isn't hard to do.
    Reply With Quote

  8. #8
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post
    I've always been skeptical of UD 2.0 I don't quite get why you'd want to deplete glycogen stores and have a few absolutely hellish workouts and then carb up to do it all again. But there are wackier diet protocols out there
    Well it clearly works to some extent, but I don't know either. If glycogen supercompensation on the refeed is the goal, it seems to me that it would be more sensible to just slowly deplete glycogen stores over the course of several workouts (thus allowing for a greater expenditure each workout). Maybe there's something I'm missing.

    Originally Posted by rgurleyjr View Post
    I don't know what to believe about Lyle's "whole-body fat oxidation" talk. Oxidizing body fat while depleted is good and all but if you end up with a cal surplus at the end of the day, the glycogen depletion was pointless. Besides, I thought the body used liver glycogen status to determine oxidation, not muscle glycogen? Depleting the liver isn't hard to do.
    The whole point of it is to be done in a deficit. UD2 works on alternating catabolic/anabolic cycles. The depletion workout kicks off the catabolic cycle.
    Reply With Quote

  9. #9
    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2008
    Location: Canada
    Stats: 5'10", 202 lbs
    Posts: 7,485
    Rep Power: 6266
    Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Opies's BodySpace
    Opies is offline
    well if your question is just "what is the difference between fat loss and fat oxidation" the answer is simply that fat oxidation is the metabolic process of fat tissue being oxidized and used, while fat loss is the net cumulative effect of continued fat oxidation without a reciprocated amount of fat storage.

    The confusion with UD 2.0 comes from a misunderstanding of its goal. The UD 2.0 protocol is not intended to cause fat loss at a greater rate than any other diet; the goal is to lose fat while maximizing muscle preservation, or even while building a small amount of muscle. The reason lyle calls for extreme measures to maximize fat oxidation is because you only have 4.5 days to achieve the weeks worth of fat loss, and the other 2.5 days are there to achieve maximum muscle synthesis without the reciprocated fat gain. The desired result is not one where the trainee has lost more fat than standard diet joe, but rather one where the fat loss may be the same, but the overall change in body composition is better.
    Last edited by Opies; 05-13-2010 at 07:17 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  10. #10
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    The confusion with UD 2.0 comes from a misunderstanding of its goal. The UD 2.0 protocol is not intended to cause fat loss at a greater rate than any other diet; the goal is to lose fat while maximizing muscle preservation, or even while building a small amount of muscle. The reason lyle calls for extreme measures to maximize fat oxidation is because you only have 4.5 days to achieve the weeks worth of fat loss, and the other 2.5 days are there to achieve maximum muscle synthesis without the reciprocated fat gain. The desired result is not one where the trainee has lost more fat than standard diet joe, but rather one where the fat loss may be the same, but the overall change in body composition is better.
    ok, but why does bringing oneself to near-total glycogen depletion increase the rate of fat loss? what would happen if the "catabolic phase" workouts involved getting properly carbed up beforehand and afterward? glycogen wouldn't get depleted, and thus whole-body fat oxidation wouldn't increase - this would be counterbalanced by the greater energy expenditure during exercise, however.

    i suppose my question, most simply, can be phrased as "why does this trick actually do anything in the long term." every other time i can think of where the goal is to "maximize fat oxidation" it turns out to be a red herring - like the "fat burning zone" of moderate-intensity cardio, and doing fasted cardio, and so on. why are depletion workouts not analogous to these? it sounds like the same type of thing as fasted cardio.
    Reply With Quote

  11. #11
    in a world built on rules iDrive's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2009
    Location: United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 6'1", 215 lbs
    Posts: 2,788
    Rep Power: 4769
    iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) iDrive has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit iDrive's BodySpace
    iDrive is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    The reason lyle calls for extreme measures to maximize fat oxidation is because you only have 4.5 days to achieve the weeks worth of fat loss, and the other 2.5 days are there to achieve maximum muscle synthesis without the reciprocated fat gain.
    This is what I was trying to say, pretty unsuccessfully since I'm not familiar with the exact protocol of UD2.0 lol

    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    ok, but why does bringing oneself to near-total glycogen depletion increase the rate of fat loss? what would happen if the "catabolic phase" workouts involved getting properly carbed up beforehand and afterward? glycogen wouldn't get depleted, and thus whole-body fat oxidation wouldn't increase - this would be counterbalanced by the greater energy expenditure during exercise, however.
    So your asking what if you depleted glycogen and then carbed up to use the carbs during the workout providing energy while still in the near depleted state?
    You don't try to build a wall.
    You don't set out to build a wall.
    You don't say, "I'm going to build the biggest, baddest, greatest wall that's ever been built!".
    You don't start there.

    You say, "I'm going to lay this brick as perfectly as a brick can be laid.".
    You do that every single day, and soon you'll have a wall.
    Reply With Quote

  12. #12
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post
    This is what I was trying to say, pretty unsuccessfully since I'm not familiar with the exact protocol of UD2.0 lol



    So your asking what if you depleted glycogen and then carbed up to use the carbs during the workout providing energy while still in the near depleted state?
    i'm saying to carb up to bring oneself out of the depleted state for workouts so as to provide a greater energy expenditure.
    Reply With Quote

  13. #13
    Registered User ajmemeni_cro's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2010
    Location: Croatia
    Age: 28
    Posts: 85
    Rep Power: 5
    ajmemeni_cro is on a distinguished road. (+10)
    Visit ajmemeni_cro's BodySpace
    ajmemeni_cro is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    The confusion with UD 2.0 comes from a misunderstanding of its goal. The UD 2.0 protocol is not intended to cause fat loss at a greater rate than any other diet; the goal is to lose fat while maximizing muscle preservation, or even while building a small amount of muscle. The reason lyle calls for extreme measures to maximize fat oxidation is because you only have 4.5 days to achieve the weeks worth of fat loss, and the other 2.5 days are there to achieve maximum muscle synthesis without the reciprocated fat gain. The desired result is not one where the trainee has lost more fat than standard diet joe, but rather one where the fat loss may be the same, but the overall change in body composition is better.
    does it really work better than other diets?
    if yes, why?
    Reply With Quote

  14. #14
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Originally Posted by ajmemeni_cro View Post
    does it really work better than other diets?
    if yes, why?
    it works better for certain things, like for recomping. it probably works much better for muscle retention than a linear deficit if you're like 10% and trying to get to 7% or whatever, although i've never tried it.

    the basic idea with all of these diets (leangains, ud2) are to alternate catabolic and anabolic "cycles" so that you're not shooting yourself in the foot. instead of just eating at maintenance to recomp, you eat way below maintenance to lose fat, and you then eat way above maintenance to put on muscle (the carb-up at the end of UD2 has additional benefits). leangains sort of has it split so that training days are more anabolic by putting more calories/carbs on those days, and less cals/carbs on off days. UD2 splits the week into one 3.5 day catabolic and one 3.5 day anabolic cycle. other approaches, like layne norton's 4 weeks bulk 2 weeks cut, make the cycles longer.

    just eating at maintenance and getting proper carbs and protein pre and post workout could be said to be a similar approach, utilizing mini-catabolic and anabolic cycles throughout the day. the goal of UD2 and these other diets is to widen the gap between the catabolic vs the anabolic cycle.

    i haven't tried UD2 so I can't comment on its effectiveness, but from what I understand using it just isn't important until you're lean enough that muscle mass retention starts to become an issue. if you're doing fine on a linear deficit, just keep doing it. lyle has different categories for when to do this - the "cat 1" where ud2 becomes appropriate I can't remember if it's 15% bf or leaner though.

    of all of that, what i don't understand is why depletion workouts actually make a difference, short of by causing the body to supercompensate with glycogen stores on the carbup.
    Reply With Quote

  15. #15
    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2008
    Location: Canada
    Stats: 5'10", 202 lbs
    Posts: 7,485
    Rep Power: 6266
    Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Opies's BodySpace
    Opies is offline
    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    ok, but why does bringing oneself to near-total glycogen depletion increase the rate of fat loss?
    It is just how the body's metabolism works. When glycogen is not necessarily depleted, but near depletion levels, the body up-regulates the rate of fat oxidation through the facilitation of some metabolic pathway. I don't know the details behind it, but it is true as far as I know.

    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    i suppose my question, most simply, can be phrased as "why does this trick actually do anything in the long term." every other time i can think of where the goal is to "maximize fat oxidation" it turns out to be a red herring - like the "fat burning zone" of moderate-intensity cardio, and doing fasted cardio, and so on. why are depletion workouts not analogous to these? it sounds like the same type of thing as fasted cardio.
    A depletion workout is not the same as fasted cardio. The reason this trick works is because during the depletion phase, fat oxidation is increased (especially if you include ephedrine as lyle recommends). During this time you are able to maximize fat loss, and will also suffer some muscle loss. The second part of the trick is that while the excessive calories during a refeed will be a huge stimulus to muscle synthesis, it won't cause any major fat gain due to that energy being mostly directed to replenishing glycogen.

    Ya gotta understand that calories in vs calories out is only the final answer for energy balance. How that energy is partitioned, the bodies efficiencies or inefficiencies, and how metabolic pathways are utilized have nothing to do with calories. While thermodynamics still applies to the body as it does in any other situation, the kinetics of the body are not constant nor stable; there are no laws here. The body has many different responses, many different adaptations, and metabolism does not always follow a predictable pathway.
    Last edited by Opies; 05-14-2010 at 06:45 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  16. #16
    Registered User rgurleyjr's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2010
    Age: 33
    Posts: 121
    Rep Power: 141
    rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    rgurleyjr is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    It is just how the body's metabolism works. When glycogen is not necessarily depleted, but near depletion levels, the body up-regulates the rate of fat oxidation through the facilitation of some metabolic pathway. I don't know the details behind it, but it is true as far as I know.



    A depletion workout is not the same as fasted cardio. The reason this trick works is because during the depletion phase, fat oxidation is increased (especially if you include ephedrine as lyle recommends). During this time you are able to maximize fat loss, and will also suffer some muscle loss. The second part of the trick is that while the excessive calories during a refeed will be a huge stimulus to muscle synthesis, it won't cause any major fat gain due to that energy being mostly directed to replenishing glycogen.

    Ya gotta understand that calories in vs calories out is only the final answer for energy balance. How that energy is partitioned, the bodies efficiencies or inefficiencies, and how metabolic pathways are utilized have nothing to do with calories. While thermodynamics still applies to the body as it does in any other situation, the kinetics of the body are not constant nor stable; there are no laws here. The body has many different responses, many different adaptations, and metabolism does not always follow a predictable pathway.
    With that said, do you think its possible to put on a minimal amount of body fat while in a total calorie deficit? Think about it, if you can eat at a surplus and partition the carb cal's to go to muscle, I wonder if the body can store some cals as fat and at the end of the day, be in a deficit but not have used that same stored fat as fuel?
    Reply With Quote

  17. #17
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    A depletion workout is not the same as fasted cardio. The reason this trick works is because during the depletion phase, fat oxidation is increased (especially if you include ephedrine as lyle recommends). During this time you are able to maximize fat loss, and will also suffer some muscle loss. The second part of the trick is that while the excessive calories during a refeed will be a huge stimulus to muscle synthesis, it won't cause any major fat gain due to that energy being mostly directed to replenishing glycogen.
    Isn't that the whole point of fasted cardio as well? Or "moderate-intensity" cardio in the "fat-burning" zone? to utilize fat for fuel as opposed to glycogen?

    Ya gotta understand that calories in vs calories out is only the final answer for energy balance. How that energy is partitioned, the bodies efficiencies or inefficiencies, and how metabolic pathways are utilized have nothing to do with calories. While thermodynamics still applies to the body as it does in any other situation, the kinetics of the body are not constant nor stable; there are no laws here. The body has many different responses, many different adaptations, and metabolism does not always follow a predictable pathway.
    well, the fact that there are two storage systems in the body going on is what's tripping me up. So if you deplete glycogen completely, there's no possible chance that the body can catabolize glycogen stores for energy, so it's forced to go to fat instead. I'm not sure what happens to protein oxidation in the face of complete glycogen depletion, but let's assume not much.

    However, my question is, i guess - does this trick really yield better long-term effects than not depleting glycogen pre-workout? the short-term effects of fasted cardio and moderate-intensity cardio also involve enhanced fat oxidation, but at the end of the day things tend to even out, and there tends to be no difference.
    Reply With Quote

  18. #18
    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2008
    Location: Canada
    Stats: 5'10", 202 lbs
    Posts: 7,485
    Rep Power: 6266
    Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Opies's BodySpace
    Opies is offline
    Originally Posted by rgurleyjr View Post
    With that said, do you think its possible to put on a minimal amount of body fat while in a total calorie deficit? Think about it, if you can eat at a surplus and partition the carb cal's to go to muscle, I wonder if the body can store some cals as fat and at the end of the day, be in a deficit but not have used that same stored fat as fuel?
    Yes that is very possible. Calories in vs Calories out does not dictate anything other than energy balance. How that negative balance is made up for by the body is solely up to the body, and fat may not be used at all, even allowing a small amount of fat to be stored. Now it is still obviously very unlikely and would require some strange circumstances to come about, but it is not impossible like some say.

    Originally Posted by Insight View Post

    However, my question is, i guess - does this trick really yield better long-term effects than not depleting glycogen pre-workout? the short-term effects of fasted cardio and moderate-intensity cardio also involve enhanced fat oxidation, but at the end of the day things tend to even out, and there tends to be no difference.
    The difference is that while fasted cardio may increase fat oxidation, it only does during the exercise. Same with the 'fat burning zone'. But with glycogen depletion, fat oxidation is not increased during just the workout, it is increased all the time while you are near depletion. And at the end of the day, a diet with fasted cardio may produce increased fat loss, but it will not leave you with the same compositional weight change as UD 2.0 should, or any similar cyclical diet.

    Does the trick really work out better in the long run? I don't know. UD 2.0 is a very difficult diet to follow, so that in itself makes it unlikely to produce results, but if followed properly it should produce some sort of advantage by exploiting certain metabolic pathways at certain times to achieve above average results.
    Last edited by Opies; 05-15-2010 at 01:37 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  19. #19
    Registered User rgurleyjr's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2010
    Age: 33
    Posts: 121
    Rep Power: 141
    rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    rgurleyjr is offline
    [QUOTE=Opies;490881001]Yes that is very possible. Calories in vs Calories out does not dictate anything other than energy balance. How that negative balance is made up for by the body is solely up to the body, and fat may not be used at all, even allowing a small amount of fat to be stored. Now it is still obviously very unlikely and would require some strange circumstances to come about, but it is not impossible like some say.

    Your the first person on this site that has said this, at least that I can remember. I recall multiple threads on here where people are preaching nothing but "cals in-cals out", like they know everything there is too know about the way the human body works. I agree with you though, the body is beyond complete understanding and things don't always work like expected.
    In your complete opinion, for someone to gain fat while in a deficit, do you think that macro composition and timing of the macros are the determinate?
    Reply With Quote

  20. #20
    Registered User Vietgoboi's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2006
    Location: San Jose, California, United States
    Stats: 5'7", 182 lbs
    Posts: 5,034
    BodyPoints: 7479
    Rep Power: 556
    Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Vietgoboi has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    Visit Vietgoboi's BodySpace
    Vietgoboi is online now
    Originally Posted by rgurleyjr View Post
    Your the first person on this site that has said this, at least that I can remember. I recall multiple threads on here where people are preaching nothing but "cals in-cals out", like they know everything there is too know about the way the human body works. I agree with you though, the body is beyond complete understanding and things don't always work like expected.
    In your complete opinion, for someone to gain fat while in a deficit, do you think that macro composition and timing of the macros are the determinate?
    I'm sorry? That individual isn't in a deficit than.
    Deficit itself, lower insulin & raise catecholamine response, resulting in fat loss.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=88428053&postcount=1565
    Reply With Quote

  21. #21
    Registered User rgurleyjr's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2010
    Age: 33
    Posts: 121
    Rep Power: 141
    rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) rgurleyjr has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    rgurleyjr is offline
    No offense but I didn't ask for your opinion.
    Reply With Quote

  22. #22
    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2008
    Location: Canada
    Stats: 5'10", 202 lbs
    Posts: 7,485
    Rep Power: 6266
    Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Opies's BodySpace
    Opies is offline
    Originally Posted by rgurleyjr View Post
    In your complete opinion, for someone to gain fat while in a deficit, do you think that macro composition and timing of the macros are the determinate?
    I don't put much merit into nutrient timing, but macros could certainly be one of the factors. A low protein, very high carb diet combined with some other abnormal circumstance like a medication or something affecting normal metabolic function could lead to such a scenario. But as I said in my previous post, while it is not impossible, it is very unlikely under normal conditions; it's certainly not something that would come about from nutrient timing or macro composition alone. Even starvation diets yield a fair amount of fat loss, muscle loss aside.
    Reply With Quote

  23. #23
    Registered User ajmemeni_cro's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2010
    Location: Croatia
    Age: 28
    Posts: 85
    Rep Power: 5
    ajmemeni_cro is on a distinguished road. (+10)
    Visit ajmemeni_cro's BodySpace
    ajmemeni_cro is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    A depletion workout is not the same as fasted cardio. The reason this trick works is because during the depletion phase, fat oxidation is increased (especially if you include ephedrine as lyle recommends). During this time you are able to maximize fat loss, and will also suffer some muscle loss. The second part of the trick is that while the excessive calories during a refeed will be a huge stimulus to muscle synthesis, it won't cause any major fat gain due to that energy being mostly directed to replenishing glycogen.
    So, you're saying that increased glycogen stores will be one of the reasons of increased muscle mass? I guess, since more glycogen means more water, the muscles will also be more voluminous.
    You also say that excesive calories are a stimulus to muscle synthesis. Do you mean muscle protein synthesis and if yes, why would muscle protein synthesis after glycogen depletion be greater than m.p. synth. after 'normal' excercise?
    Reply With Quote

  24. #24
    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2008
    Location: Canada
    Stats: 5'10", 202 lbs
    Posts: 7,485
    Rep Power: 6266
    Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Opies's BodySpace
    Opies is offline
    Originally Posted by ajmemeni_cro View Post
    So, you're saying that increased glycogen stores will be one of the reasons of increased muscle mass? I guess, since more glycogen means more water, the muscles will also be more voluminous.
    You also say that excesive calories are a stimulus to muscle synthesis. Do you mean muscle protein synthesis and if yes, why would muscle protein synthesis after glycogen depletion be greater than m.p. synth. after 'normal' excercise?
    I never said anywhere that glycogen depletion or replenishment has any effect on muscle synthesis nor true muscle mass. I simply said that the excess of energy will be a huge stimulus, and due to the glycogen depletion, there will be less fat gain. The 'second part of the trick' I was referring to was one of improved nutrient partitioning.
    Reply With Quote

  25. #25
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    Originally Posted by ajmemeni_cro View Post
    You also say that excesive calories are a stimulus to muscle synthesis. Do you mean muscle protein synthesis and if yes, why would muscle protein synthesis after glycogen depletion be greater than m.p. synth. after 'normal' excercise?
    one reason would be that after glycogen stores are completely depleted, the body will supercompensate with their volume on the carb-up. this would mean, i presume, that you'd be able to get out more reps/push more weight/etc, and this could have a positive impact on mps that way
    Reply With Quote

  26. #26
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    The plot thickens

    J Physiol Pharmacol. 2010 Apr;61(2):193-200.

    Metabolic and hormonal responses to body carbohydrate store depletion followed by high or low carbohydrate meal in sedentary and physically active subjects.
    Mikulski T, Ziemba A, Nazar K.

    Department of Applied Physiology, Mossakowski Medical Research Center, Polish Academy of Sciences, Warsaw, Poland. tomik@cmdik.pan.pl

    Abstract
    The study was designed to determine metabolic and hormonal responses to acute modification of body carbohydrate stores by exercise and subsequent meals and to find out whether the responses depend on the training status of subjects. Nine sedentary students and 10 endurance athletes took part in four experimental sessions. During control session, after overnight fast oxygen uptake and CO2 production were measured and blood glucose, free fatty acids (FFA), insulin (I), leptin (L), growth hormone (GH), testosterone (T), catecholamines, ACTH and cortisol were determined. The remaining sessions were preceded by 1.5 h exercise at 70% HRmax in the evening followed by 12-16 hrs fast till morning when subjects ate either high-carbohydrate (H-CHO) or low-carbohydrate (L-CHO) meal or fasted. Respiratory gases and blood samples were collected before and 2 hours after meal. In glycogen depleted subjects respiratory quotient (RQ), I, norepinephrine (NE) and L decreased, whilst other variables were unaltered. Changes in I and NE were greater in athletes than in sedentary subjects. After H-CHO RQ, blood glucose, I and NE increased and FFA, GH and T decreased. The latter effect was greater in athletes than in untrained subjects. After L-CHO, RQ was at the fasting level and FFA increased only in sedentary group. In both groups I increased and GH and T decreased. Neither meal affected L concentration. In conclusion, hormonal and metabolic changes observed after depleting carbohydrate stores resemble those occurring during starvation. Composition of the ingested meal affects postprandial metabolism, which additionally depends on the subjects' training status.
    Cliffs
    - Glycogen depletion lowers noradrenaline output, which can lower metabolic rate
    - This is only counteracted upon by a high-carb diet after depletion

    This adds to my main theoretical objection to the use of the depletion workout, which was that depleted glycogen stores lead to decreased gym performance - they apparently lead to a decrease in metabolic rate as well. I would be very curious to see if this supposed increase in fat oxidation is counterbalanced by this.
    Reply With Quote

  27. #27
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    btw, I found this from Martin's latest blog post at leangains, which is where I got turned onto the above study. his thoughts:

    7. Glycogen depletion lowers metabolic rate via decreased noradrenaline output and is only restored to basal levels with a high carb meal. I rarely employ glycogen depletion in my training protocols, but a few of you do. I am convinced that there are a few Crossfitters, PX90-adherents and kettlebell-enthusiasts reading this that deplete a fair amount of glycogen in their workouts while following a low carb diet. Low carbing is fine. But going too low on carbs on training-days is a suboptimal strategy. Have some carbs with your post-workout meal and save the low-carbing for other meals. Your metabolism and performance will be much better off. A minimum of 1 g/kg body weight or 0.45 g/lb of predominantly starch-based carbs is a rough guideline for post-workout meals following training sessions that deplete a fair amount of glycogen.
    The more I study different expert's approaches to this, the more I see differences between people's thought patterns. Lyle is much more willing to go the "theoretical" route with his methods, connecting the dots as best can by reading and cross-referencing an enormous amount of research. Others like Martin and Alan seem to prefer a more "practical" approach, where they're less willing to make huge extrapolations from the data unless the benefit is immediately shown through research, from their own personal data, or unless it's more or less obvious.

    All three of the above people go extremely far into the literature when researching, but I notice a bit of leeway in how much data is really required before people start theorizing.
    Reply With Quote

  28. #28
    Registered User ajmemeni_cro's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2010
    Location: Croatia
    Age: 28
    Posts: 85
    Rep Power: 5
    ajmemeni_cro is on a distinguished road. (+10)
    Visit ajmemeni_cro's BodySpace
    ajmemeni_cro is offline
    Originally Posted by Opies View Post
    I never said anywhere that glycogen depletion or replenishment has any effect on muscle synthesis nor true muscle mass. I simply said that the excess of energy will be a huge stimulus, and due to the glycogen depletion, there will be less fat gain. The 'second part of the trick' I was referring to was one of improved nutrient partitioning.
    ok.
    let me see if I got this right (simplified) :
    some glycogen left after exercise: protein goes to muscle, carbs to glycogen and spiling over to fat.
    glycogen depleted: protein to muscle, carbs to glycogen, no spill-over to fat

    so simply, less fat gain, not necesarily more muscle protein synthesis.

    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    one reason would be that after glycogen stores are completely depleted, the body will supercompensate with their volume on the carb-up. this would mean, i presume, that you'd be able to get out more reps/push more weight/etc, and this could have a positive impact on mps that way
    i see what you mean.
    now, if that's correct, this method (depleting and super comping g.) could be used as a bulking method instead of cutting. haven't seen it recomended for bulking.

    edit: my bad. apparently, there is a UD2 version for building mass.
    Last edited by ajmemeni_cro; 05-17-2010 at 02:27 PM.
    Reply With Quote

  29. #29
    Internet Pirate Opies's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2008
    Location: Canada
    Stats: 5'10", 202 lbs
    Posts: 7,485
    Rep Power: 6266
    Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Opies has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Opies's BodySpace
    Opies is offline
    Originally Posted by ajmemeni_cro View Post
    ok.
    let me see if I got this right (simplified) :
    some glycogen left after exercise: protein goes to muscle, carbs to glycogen and spiling over to fat.
    glycogen depleted: protein to muscle, carbs to glycogen, no spill-over to fat

    so simply, less fat gain, not necesarily more muscle protein synthesis.
    correct. Rather than spill-over, there is typically glycogen supercompensation instead. While Muscle synthesis is no better than at any other time on a bulk, it is certainly a lot better than the near or complete lack of synthesis on a constant deficit, which is why it may be advantageous compared to a standard straight deficit.

    I'm not exactly a huge fan of UD 2.0. I think it is very scientific and well thought out in it's approach, but it is a very difficult diet and I sure wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It does have it's merits though and I have no doubt it would follow through on its claim of losing fat while preserving all and maybe adding some muscle mass.
    Reply With Quote

  30. #30
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2009
    Location: Homestead, Pennsylvania, United States
    Age: 26
    Stats: 5'10", 163 lbs
    Posts: 7,135
    Rep Power: 9446
    Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Insight has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Insight's BodySpace
    Insight is offline
    So if I'd try to relate this to a "thermodynamics" standpoint, is all of the following right?

    The idea that cals in and cals out is what matters is true, but consider that there are two(three) different stores of energy within the body: fat, glycogen (and muscle). muscle isn't REALLY like a storage repository for protein, but you could think of it as that. keep in mind that thermodynamics is not violated if you eat at maintenance by the end of the day all of the energy in glycogen stores has been depleted and stored as fat. i don't know how you'd manage to accomplish this feat but I imagine it would involve keto + hiit + maintenance.

    so when people talk about fat oxidation vs carb oxidation rates going on within the body they're talking about what substrate is being used for fuel.

    so for example, during "fat-burning zone" moderate-intensity cardio, fat oxidation is going to be high and carbohydrate oxidation is going to be low. but, afterward, fat oxidation is going to lower and carb oxidation is going to go up (according to alan's research review in the exercise forum, I confess I haven't gone in and read all of the studies yet).

    meanwhile, when you're doing insane tabata protocol of death cardio, carb oxidation is going to be high and fat oxidation is going to be low. but, afterward, fat oxidation will be high and carb oxidation will be low.

    this should make sense: if you deplete glycogen, then the carbs you eat afterward will go towards glycogen storage. if you don't, then the carbs you eat afterward will go towards being oxidized for energy.

    these are all interrelated and eating carbs generally brings fat oxidation down, for example. and different macronutrients can convert to one another in certain circumstances within the body (GNG, DNL, etc)

    so if you're in a caloric surplus, probably some of these cals are going to be stored as fat. but some can also be stored as glycogen, and and hopefully some will be synthesized into contractile protein in muscles.

    and if you're in caloric a deficit, the energy needed to meet the body's requirements doesn't have to come from fat. some of them might come from stored glycogen in the liver or muscles, and some might come from protein being broken deaminated and oxidized, or converted into glucose, or whatever.

    so I suppose the idea is that if for whatever reason fat oxidation is increasing, that means carb/protein oxidation is DECREASING, and hence going into storage. so if you're on the first phase of UD2, and you're PSMFing and eating no carbs or fat, then some of your energy needs are going to come from stored glycogen instead of just fat. so the point of the "depletion workout" is to get all of the glycogen "out of the way" so as to take the rest from fat. and what i'm not concerned about is that this will make a difference by the end of the week, but maybe it does.

    right?
    Reply With Quote

Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Fat loss "supplement" & Multivitamins
    By bogglezjan in forum Training
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-20-2012, 05:55 PM
  2. Steriod like supplment for "FAT LOSS"???
    By JayoMano in forum Supplements
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 03-25-2008, 09:51 AM
  3. Help "fat loss"
    By gr1mo in forum Losing Fat
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-26-2007, 07:05 AM
  4. "fat loss" in powder!help me! :)
    By ventos in forum Supplements
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-20-2006, 08:21 AM
  5. Help chosing "fat loss" product.
    By IamCANADIANeh? in forum Product Reviews - Help Out!
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 06-06-2005, 11:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Home Store Products Careers Help Contact Us Terms of Use Checkout