Smith Machine Question??

[RPPaving]

I have a quick question about the smith machine and i wanna know if i should or shouldnt be using it, I use it mainly for the following exercises:

-flat bench
-incline bench
-seated shoulder press (in front and behind head)
-shrugs

Does it honestly work the muscles just as good as a free barbell? My main concern is bench because people always rip on the smith for benching but i personally love doing it.

[VoxExMachina]

In.

[Tyciol]

Does it honestly work the muscles just as good as a free barbell?

Which muscles? The Smith requires less stabilization so there would be less stabilizer work, but in terms of the prime movers, I don't see why, if you're moving more weight, why there would be less stimulation.

Regular bench uses more stabalizer muscles...I can easily bench 20lbs more on smith

Stabilizers like what? The external rotators? Don't these get hit harder with pulling movements anyway? People are doing all kinds of pre-hab work to balance them out based on benching alone not being enough to safely train them.

Big woop at "medial deltoid"

Especially concerned at a supposed scientist using that terminology. CSU professors failing basic anatomy.

[Anthony21]

I stay away from the smith machine and use freeweights or barbells over the smith. With your comment on the benching I would try benching with dumbbells vs the barbell. For me I prefer this method. Give it a try for a couple weeks.

[Tyciol]

Hey guys for the close-grip elbows-in bench press style (is this what powerlifters use?) since the smith doesn't let the bar travel in an arch, wouldn't it force you to use more triceps? I like triceps.

[thisonefoo]

DB vs BB vs Smith

LINKS in above post

My takeaway is that they are effective as you make them for you.

Great post.. I love scientific reasoning. There you go.. barbell over dumbbell for more activation. Also couldn't agree more with the last comment. If they're working for you, keep using it. Everyone trains differently and if you're progressing, no one can take that from you. Plus, the smith is really good when you can't/don't have a spot.

[firefox16]

Stabilizers like what? The external rotators?

The barbell bench press also targets numerous stabilizer muscles. The anterior and medial deltoids, or shoulder muscles, are required to lift the weight and stabilize the arms as they are pressed upward. So the shoulders must be depressed during the concentric phase of the lift to negate their impact. The bench press also utilizes the biceps as antagonist muscles to the extension, and to stabilize the weight during the eccentric or lowering phase. The core, abdominal and spinal muscles are also utilized to maintain a firm posture and keep the waist and lower body rigid during the press.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/32...#ixzz1oJelN7Sk

[scarboro]

LOL. We're going by EMG studies now?

Here:
"
The results of the EMG studies show which exercises produce the greatest amount of stimulation within each target muscle group. The following table displays these results.

IEMG max motor-unit activation

Exercise/% EMG Muscle Stimulation

Pectoralis major:
Decline dumbbell bench press - 93
Decline bench press (Olympic bar) - 89
Push-ups between benches - 88
Flat dumbbell bench press - 87
Flat bench press (Olympic bar) - 85
Flat dumbbell flys - 84

Pectoralis minor:
Incline dumbbell bench press - 91
Incline bench press (Olympic bar) - 85
Incline dumbbell flys - 83
Incline bench press (Smith machine) - 81

Medial deltoids:
Incline dumbbell side laterals - 66
Standing dumbbell side laterals - 63
Seated dumbbell side laterals - 62
Cable side laterals - 47

Posterior deltoids:
Standing dumbbell bent laterals - 85
Seated dumbbell bent laterals - 83
Standing cable bent laterals - 77

Anterior deltoids:
Seated front dumbbell press - 79
Standing front dumbbell raises - 73
Seated front barbell press - 61

Biceps:
Biceps preacher curls (Olympic bar) - 90
Incline seated dumbbell curls (alternate) - 88
Standing biceps curls (Olympic bar/narrow grip) - 86
Standing dumbbell curls (alternate) - 84
Concentration dumbbell curls - 80
Standing biceps curls (Olympic bar/wide grip) - 63
Standing E-Z biceps curls (wide grip) - 61

Triceps:
Decline triceps extensions (Olympic bar) - 92
Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) - 90
Triceps dip between benches - 87
One-arm cable triceps extensions (reverse grip) - 85
Overhead rope triceps extensions - 84
Seated one-arm dumbbell triceps extensions (neutral grip) - 82
Close-grip bench press (Olympic bar) - 72

Latissimus dorsi:
Bent-over barbell rows - 93
One-arm dumbbell rows - 91
T-bar rows - 89
Lat pulldowns to the front - 86
Seated pulley rows - 83

Quadriceps:
Squats (parallel depth, shoulder-width stance) - 88
Seated leg extensions (toes straight) - 86
Hack Squats (90 degree angle, shoulder-width stance) - 78
Leg press (110 degree angle) - 76
Smith machine squats (90 degree angle, shoulder-width stance) - 60

Hamstrings:
Seated leg curls - 88
Standing leg curls - 79
Lying leg curls - 70
Stiff Legged Deadlifts - 63

Calves:
Donkey calf raises - 80
Standing one-leg calf raises - 79
Standing two-leg calf raises - 68
Seated calf raises - 61

References:

1. DeLuca, Fj., R.S. LeFever, M.P. McCue, and A.P. Xenakis. (1982), “Behavior of human motor units in different muscles during lineally varying contractions” Journal Physiology (Lond), 329:113-128.

2. Kobayashi Matsui, H. (1983), “Analysis of myoelectric signals during dynamic and isometric contraction.” Electromyog Clin Neurophysiol, 26, 147-160.

3. Melo, G.L. and E. Cafarelli. (1994-95), Exercise Physiology Laboratory Manual, 25.

4. Moritani, T. and H.A. deVries. (1987), “Re-examination of the relationship between the surface integrated electromyogram (IEMG) and force of isometric contraction.” American Journal of Physiological Medicine, 57:263-277.

5. Moritani, T., M. Muro, and A. Nagata. (1986), “Intramuscular and surface electromyogram changes during muscle fatigue.” Journal of Applied Physiology, 60:1179-1185"

[creationd]

The barbell bench press also targets numerous stabilizer muscles. The anterior and medial deltoids, or shoulder muscles, are required to lift the weight and stabilize the arms as they are pressed upward. So the shoulders must be depressed during the concentric phase of the lift to negate their impact. The bench press also utilizes the biceps as antagonist muscles to the extension, and to stabilize the weight during the eccentric or lowering phase. The core, abdominal and spinal muscles are also utilized to maintain a firm posture and keep the waist and lower body rigid during the press.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/32...#ixzz1oJelN7Sk

Wouldn't you be working those with other exercises! Shoulder press, bicep curls etc. Your argument sounds like you are saying the smith isolates the chest better? I use the smith at times and like it, it seems most people think it is easy because the bar usually wieghs 15lbs instead of the usual 45lb Olympic bar.

[00RYAN00]

...

[itwasntme184]

i only use smith for cgbp (easier on wrists for some reason and feels like isolates triceps)
and calf raises (I hate balancing 3+ plates on shoulders while doing calf raises)

[Tyciol]

The barbell bench press also targets numerous stabilizer muscles. The anterior and medial deltoids, or shoulder muscles, are required to lift the weight and stabilize the arms as they are pressed upward.

The anterior delt is going to work during a smith press too. Plus most people want to bench for chest rather than delts, and the overhead press is done to hit the anterior and LATERAL deltoids.

So the shoulders must be depressed during the concentric phase of the lift to negate their impact.

Can't that be done in both smith and free?

The bench press also utilizes the biceps as antagonist muscles to the extension, and to stabilize the weight during the eccentric or lowering phase.

Benchers still probably get most of their bicep work done with pulling or iso movements though, so I'm not sure why it's important to hit them with benching. The more stable your lifting patterns are, the less stabilizers are used. The more you wobble around, the more stimulation stabilizers get. Free weight movements teach people to use stabilizers but direct work is a more specific way to get them stronger and bigger.

The core, abdominal and spinal muscles are also utilized to maintain a firm posture and keep the waist and lower body rigid during the press.

That's true, but I bet squatting and deadlifts do that better, so what's the point?

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/32...#ixzz1oJelN7Sk

I've read LiveStrong. Good content but some left wanting.

[gomez26]

Regular bench uses more stabalizer muscles...I can easily bench 20lbs more on smith

so lemme get this right. using more muscles makes you handle less weight?

In.

this. lets get this party started.



most smiths are counterweighed so that the bar itself doesnt weight much. this is the reason why ppl can load it more. nothing to do with the mysterious, elusive stabilizorz.

[Tyciol]

using more muscles makes you handle less weight?

It does when you have to waste energy shaking the bar back and forth to keep it from toppling over.

In theory a bench done with utterly perfect form wouldn't require any more energy or stabilization than a smith bench, but since form is never utterly perfect, microscopic deviations that the body corrects account for the increased energy used by benching a given weight rather than smithing it.

[RobjConnor]

The smith machine can prove troublesome for many mainly down to the fact that it locks your movement into one plane. Your joints won’t thank you for this and problems can arise ranging from trivial discomfort to serious joint problems several months\years down the line.

The problem with Smith machines are exaggerated when you go heavy so if you do use them, then stick to light weights\high reps.

I personally use the Smith machine very occasionally when I’m in a ‘rest’ cycle and as stated above, using light weights only.

[VoxExMachina]

I knew teh sTabiliZERz would come up, and I am not disappoint.

[Retoaded]

as a small aside...some people use the smith because they think its safer when benching alone. if you pin yourself under a smith bar you are screwed. you can roll a barbell off.

I pinned myself in a smith machine one time and its the last time I have ever used one. not fun. last rep didn't quite make it up to the first hook lol. barbells you can get rid of.

[firefox16]

Benchers still probably get most of their bicep work done with pulling or iso movements though, so I'm not sure why it's important to hit them with benching.

That's true, but I bet squatting and deadlifts do that better, so what's the point?

i suppose these muscles could be worked better doing other excercises...i just prefer regular bench as opposed to smith.

[jiorgie]

I'd stay away from smith machines. They are by far the worst machines to use...

[Tyciol]

The smith machine can prove troublesome for many mainly down to the fact that it locks your movement into one plane. Your joints won’t thank you for this and problems can arise ranging from trivial discomfort to serious joint problems several months\years down the line.

Question: if you were using different grip widths and were positioned in a slightly different position in respect to the bar each set (which is likely) wouldn't that mean that the movement wouldn't be perfectly fixed over the long term?

[k9pit]

The smith machine can prove troublesome for many mainly down to the fact that it locks your movement into one plane. Your joints won’t thank you for this and problems can arise ranging from trivial discomfort to serious joint problems several months\years down the line.

This is the argument that I've always pondered, but I guess it boils down to how you go about things....

I personally *like* the fact that the position is fixed because once i sit the bench right, I'm hitting the target muscle I want to hit the way I want to hit it starting from Rep#1. Now with that said, it's not my main move and I use the Smith when I know my stabilizers are fatiguing to begin with so I'll be pushing a moderate to lighter weight that will be "feeling heavy" on my triceps/shoulder at this point of my workout but it feels effective for my chest. So I'm already mentally on guard to be ready to lock/rack the weight in the Smith as my chest will be on fire as the set progresses.
With that said if you planned for a freeweight bb set of 10 reps, and your form starts degrading at let's say Rep#7, but you decide to push through anyway (as many do)....you'll likely be making subtle changes, shifting more weight over to the stabilizers, and still be able to complete that set. Now if you take that type of mentality over to the Smith, then yes I can imagine a person will be more likely to screw themselves because they won't be able to make those subtle shifts in form while it's degrading and basically end up grinding their up shoulders within that fixed plane.

[ironwill2008]

My main concern is bench because people always rip on the smith for benching but i personally love doing it.

Are you progressing the weight and/or reps you're lifting on a fairly consistent basis? Are you experiencing any joint problems?

If the answer to the first question is yes, and to the second, no, then continue as you see fit.

[VoxExMachina]

Here's what Charles Glass, one of the best bodybuilding trainers out there, had to say about using the smith machine for a guy who struggled with balancing the weight on regular barbell squats:



" It’s true that if you can do barbell squats correctly, they are the absolute most productive lower-body exercise. But in a case like yours where your legs aren’t even able to work anywhere near their strength potential due to the limitations of your balance issue, you would see much better results with a Smith machine, squat machine, hack squats, and leg presses. Don’t keep banging your head against the wall because you think there is some rule that says you have to squat with a barbell. The only rule that ever applies to training is do what’s best for you and if something does produce results for you, it doesn’t matter what anyone else says or does."



The key takeaway here is the last sentence.

[ironwill2008]

One more thought on all this Smith Machine/stabilizer nonsense; my 8th edition copy of "Principles of Anatomy and Physiology" makes absolutley no mention of any such thing as "stabilizer muscles."

[RPPaving]

Are you progressing the weight and/or reps you're lifting on a fairly consistent basis? Are you experiencing any joint problems?

If the answer to the first question is yes, and to the second, no, then continue as you see fit.

As a matter of fact I did answer yes to the first and no to the second!!

[RobjConnor]

The main problem with the Smith machine is that it forces you to follow a static motion path which is not how anyone lifts naturally.

Watch someone bench pressing from the side and follow the path the bar takes in its horizontal plane whilst moving up and down. There may not be a great deal of horizontal movement with some and more so with others but there will be movement for all.

Likewise for all other exercise such as the squat, shoulder press etc. None of these exercises are performed with the bar moving in a perfect vertical plane.

The Smith machine prevents this movement and locks you into performing the exercise that deviates from your natural movement which only places damaging stress on your joints.

Don’t forget, the Smith machine will feel more comfortable to some than it does to others depending on your natural movement pattern. Also, just because an exercise doesn’t feel too stressful on your joints at the point of performance doesn’t mean that long term damage isn’t being done.

[gomez26]

It does when you have to waste energy shaking the bar back and forth to keep it from toppling over.

In theory a bench done with utterly perfect form wouldn't require any more energy or stabilization than a smith bench, but since form is never utterly perfect, microscopic deviations that the body corrects account for the increased energy used by benching a given weight rather than smithing it.

there is a coordination issue defly, but its not to do with wasting energy.
this kind of argument reminds me of arthur jones saying you shouldnt grimace or grip too hard coz it wastes energy & takes away from the exercise..

[gomez26]

Don’t forget, the Smith machine will feel more comfortable to some than it does to others depending on your natural movement pattern. Also, just because an exercise doesn’t feel too stressful on your joints at the point of performance doesn’t mean that long term damage isn’t being done.

doesnt mean it is either. its a helluva assumption to say it will give you joint problems just because its in a fixed path. there is no actual evidence for it, its an attempt at raw logic similar to saying you only need 1 set to failure to grow optimally.
& theres plenty of ppl going around with injures from free weight benching.

[palumboism]

The main problem with the Smith machine is that it forces you to follow a static motion path which is not how anyone lifts naturally.

Static motion.

raw logic

Lulz.

[ironwill2008]

The Smith machine prevents this movement and locks you into performing the exercise that deviates from your natural movement which only places damaging stress on your joints.

Says who? Where are all these trainees with damaged joints? And how do they know it was using a Smith Machine that did the damage?

Also, just because an exercise doesn’t feel too stressful on your joints at the point of performance doesn’t mean that long term damage isn’t being done.

So, based on ^^^^ this, exactly how "long term" would somebody have to use a Smith before joint damage became apparent?