How much glycogen gets stored in muscles before adipose spillover?

[Mlupi319]

How much glycogen does it take to fill up muscles before there is spillover into adipose tissue?

Im asking this question because i was reading up on nutrient partitioners (such as glycobol and anabolic pump) which claim to force feed glycogen into your muscles and none into adipose tissue, but skeptics of this claim that you can only fit so much glycogen into your muscle and then no matter what there is spillover.

I was just wondering if there has been studies to show at what point does spillover occur? Im sure there isnt a straight forward answer, as it would probably depend on how much muscle one had, but maybe an amount depending on lean body mass? Just curious

[in10city]

How much glycogen does it take to fill up muscles before there is spillover into adipose tissue?

Im asking this question because i was reading up on nutrient partitioners (such as glycobol and anabolic pump) which claim to force feed glycogen into your muscles and none into adipose tissue, but skeptics of this claim that you can only fit so much glycogen into your muscle and then no matter what there is spillover.

I was just wondering if there has been studies to show at what point does spillover occur? Im sure there isnt a straight forward answer, as it would probably depend on how much muscle one had, but maybe an amount depending on lean body mass? Just curious

Here are a few studies that have looked at carbohydrate overfeeding and de novo lipogenesis. But under normal dietary conditions, de novo lipogenesis isn't significant. You have to plow down a ton of carbs as they did in the studies below. What happens instead is that you end up burning more of the carbohydrates you ingest and burn less fat and store more fat.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/2/240
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/6/737

[Mlupi319]

Thanks for the links

"Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass."

Is this saying that ~500g of carbs can be stored in muscles before spillover? If so that seems like alot, especially if they mean in 1 sitting, assuming glycogen stores are completely drained. Also how much energy expenditure would it take to completely deplete glycogen stores?

Currently I am on a low carb diet (less 100grams/day) and i lift for 60-90min 4days/week. I am trying to figure out how much carbs i should take in on my carb refeed day just enough to fill glycogen stores in my muscles. (trying to keep overall calories below maintenance even on refeed days). And then how long will that last before i completely deplete them again?

[mfbarbmff]

The better question you should ask is how glycogen depleted you would be by the time you start your refeed.

In Lyle McDonald's book Rapid Fat Loss Hand Book, he recommends 15g-16g carbs per kg of lean body mass, assuming you're going into the refeed completely glycogen depleted.

One example would be a relatively lean individual going low carb (50g) per day for nearly 11-12 days, with 3 training bouts a week, very low in volume, and high in intensity.

Or, in his book Ultimate Diet 2.0, he designed a program to purposely deplete muscle glycogen through a 2-day very high volume training while eating very low carb, setting people up for glycogen supercompensation.

[wyrepyre]

i would think that 5g/kg would also include what the liver stores...

[mfbarbmff]

I think the liver only stores around 50 grams of glycogen. So it is not significant at all.

[aelunyu]

We have to consider the amount of glycogen that your body is getting from other sources in the absence of ingested carbs? If you're not going into complete keto, your body is still going to use glycogen and carbs as the primary energy macro. Which means it'll take it from muscle and ingested aminos. So there will still be glycogen in the muscle (from the muscle eating itself!) even if you're very low carb. So we try to keep protein high to curb some of that catabolism, but it's not nearly muscle sparing as carbs.


Also, is adipose spillover such a bad thing, considering the benefit of a clean refeed? I've always looked forward to refeeds because in all my years of dieting, I've never found an entire day of carbing up to produce a negative body composition result! Better hormones, better metabolic rate, fuller, harder muscles, more strength and endurance, and not to mention you can basically go crazy and fulfill a psychological need! In the case of refeeds, I think being 92-95% diet compliant during the other six days gives you more ease of mind. Unless you're trying to get under 6% bodyfat.

[Mlupi319]

We have to consider the amount of glycogen that your body is getting from other sources in the absence of ingested carbs? If you're not going into complete keto, your body is still going to use glycogen and carbs as the primary energy macro. Which means it'll take it from muscle and ingested aminos. So there will still be glycogen in the muscle (from the muscle eating itself!) even if you're very low carb. So we try to keep protein high to curb some of that catabolism, but it's not nearly muscle sparing as carbs.


Also, is adipose spillover such a bad thing, considering the benefit of a clean refeed? I've always looked forward to refeeds because in all my years of dieting, I've never found an entire day of carbing up to produce a negative body composition result! Better hormones, better metabolic rate, fuller, harder muscles, more strength and endurance, and not to mention you can basically go crazy and fulfill a psychological need! In the case of refeeds, I think being 92-95% diet compliant during the other six days gives you more ease of mind. Unless you're trying to get under 6% bodyfat.

I agree but what is the point of a refeed past the point of completely filling glycogen in muscles? Once your muscles are full spillover occurs and the excess glycogen will go to adipose tissue and cannot be turned back into glycogen for easy use by your muscles (correct me if I'm wrong). And yes fat can be used as energy but like you said carbs/glycogen is what is truly muscle sparring. And especially on a cut you dont want any extra carbs or calories that aren't directly helping in one way or another.

So wouldn't it be beneficial to know the exact amount of carbs to eat to completely fill glycogen in your muscles. Also from there how long would it take to completely deplete them? Based on nutrition (<100grams of carbs/day) and activity level (moderate intensity and volume lifting 3-5 days/week) , so you can immediately refeed at the point of depletion and limit any catabolism.

[quartz75]

hey can i ask on this thread...

is it mainly starchy carbs that go to muscles (and fructose goes to liver)

and the main question, basically same as asked here, but for the liver, read the liver stores up to about 100g carbs. what happens when you take in over and above this approx 100 carbs, does it get to muscles, or end up as adipose ? if you do (for eg) some mad exercise, will the extra fructose get used as energy and not stored ?

[Mlupi319]

hey can i ask on this thread...

is it mainly starchy carbs that go to muscles (and fructose goes to liver)

and the main question, basically same as asked here, but for the liver, read the liver stores up to about 100g carbs. what happens when you take in over and above this approx 100 carbs, does it get to muscles, or end up as adipose ? if you do (for eg) some mad exercise, will the extra fructose get used as energy and not stored ?

Yes I believe starchy/complex carbs (polysaccharides) go to muscles and fructose and glucose/simple carbs (monosaccharides) go to liver.

Also I read that once your liver is full the rest (monosaccharides) ends up as adipose tissue even if your muscles are not completely full with glycogen (someone correct me if Im wrong)

[in10city]

Yes I believe starchy/complex carbs (polysaccharides) go to muscles and fructose and glucose/simple carbs (monosaccharides) go to liver.

Also I read that once your liver is full the rest (monosaccharides) ends up as adipose tissue even if your muscles are not completely full with glycogen (someone correct me if Im wrong)

Every part of that is wrong. Basically all dietary di- and polysaccharides are hydrolyzed to monosaccharide units [like glucose, galactose, fructose] in the intestines which are then absorbed and transported to the liver. Galactose and fructose are primarily metabolized in the liver where they depending upon the metabolic state can be used for hepatic glycogen synthesis, glycolysis, eventually released as glucose [so both can indirectly end up going towards peripheral/muscle glucose disposal] and in the case of fructose triglyceride synthesis due to where it enters glycolysis. Due to the high Km of liver glucokinase, glucose may not be sequestered by the liver and will be primarily disposed of peripherally. There is an indirect pathway to hepatic glycogen synthesis termed as the 'glucose paradox' too.

If your liver is full, fructose may have a higher probability of being used for tryglyceride synthesis but that's it. De novo lipogenesis is not a prominent fate of carbohydrates to begin with.

[Mlupi319]

Every part of that is wrong. Basically all dietary di- and polysaccharides are hydrolyzed to monosaccharide units [like glucose, galactose, fructose] in the intestines which are then absorbed and transported to the liver. Galactose and fructose are primarily metabolized in the liver where they depending upon the metabolic state can be used for hepatic glycogen synthesis, glycolysis, eventually released as glucose [so both can indirectly end up going towards peripheral/muscle glucose disposal] and in the case of fructose triglyceride synthesis due to where it enters glycolysis. Due to the high Km of liver glucokinase, glucose may not be sequestered by the liver and will be primarily disposed of peripherally. There is an indirect pathway to hepatic glycogen synthesis termed as the 'glucose paradox' too.

If your liver is full, fructose may have a higher probability of being used for tryglyceride synthesis but that's it. De novo lipogenesis is not a prominent fate of carbohydrates to begin with.

whoops

[quartz75]

quote

good info, a bit over the head.

is this right as a summary, based on the part you said "depending on metabolic state", that, once liver is full and if energy is required, excess fructose will be used as energy, but if liver is full and energy is not required, excess fructose will go to adipose ? cheers

[beencake]

The point of carb refeed days is to increase leptin and overfeeed your body, so especially if your metabolism is fast like an ecto's would be, you should be eating an influx of calories on refeed days. You can't gain any signifigant amount of fat or muscle in 2-3 days. Typically especially for ectos spillover would take days of overfeeding like 8k calories lol

[Kostya1981]

Nice thread, nice answers.
But iv got additional question. How fast is the process of restoring glycogen? I mean if i eated 1kg of sugar is it all will goes to muscles or muscles cant take it so fast. If it cant, so much part of it will goes to adipocytes, and then for restoring we need to eat slow diegesting carbs.

Someone heard about that?