I think I'm overtraining..?

[TurbulentFluid]

OK, I've had another setback... I'm really tired of them. I was doing really well, set up my diet right, set up my w/o with 3xFBW, 2xHIIT and 1x moderate cardio with 1 rest day per week, and was on my merry way. 3 weeks later I lost 3 kg, then... stagnated for a week during a rest week - OK, then re-started on a new 3xFBW routine, stagnated still because I was too hungry to keep the diet discipline, and now crashed into a binge.

The FBW consists of 70% compounds, 30% isos, cca 10 exercises per w/o, cca 5 exercises per large / 3 exercises per small bodypart per week, while reps vary per w/o like this:
w/o #1 - light (3x12)
w/o #2 - moderate (3x8-10)
w/o #3 - heavy (4x5-6).
All exercises are same bodypart supersets, 60s rest between sets (Wet Wolf stuff, for added cardio benefit).

The diet is solid, the Zone on 13 blocks/day, cca 500 kcal daily deficit (proven with 3 weeks of good progress), but the w/o seems unsustainable. I'm wondering if I'm over training, because the following cycle happens:
- I w/o and am disciplined (cca 1 week)
- I w/o and feel rather sore, diet discipline gives, I try to compensate with w/o (8th-9th day)
- I get really sore, and lack desire to w/o (10th-11th day)
- I feel too sore to w/o, end up eating more than I should or even binging if something else happens (like this weekend when my mom ended up in the hospital).

This 2-week cycle seems conspicuos. I was thinking about changing my w/o from 3xFBW to a hybrid w/o where I'd split exercises so that I work a body part 2x instead of 3x per week...

Is this sensibile, or am I just whining?

[freebirdmac]

You're whining

Seriously, it's not the workouts, it's your inability to deal with the hunger pangs and stick to your diet. What you can try is two weeks at maintenance, with this workout, to allow you to get over the soreness brought on by a new routine. Then start your diet plan. You'll still get hungry, but, the soreness shouldn't be a big issue. You will have to find some way of dealing with hunger. It will get better after a week or two

[inbetweendays]

FWIW, I just read a great series of articles that, in part, touches on exactly what you're experiencing with the type of training and eating that you're doing. And yes, the conclusion would be that you're over training.

Here's a link to the summary of the series, which then provides links to each of the individual articles: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...onclusion.html The entire series covers a lot more than your issue, but I found it all quite fascinating and enlightening.

And this article in particular makes some interesting points about combining full-body metabolic weight workouts, plus HIIT, plus caloric restriction, etc., etc.: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...nt-part-2.html

I'm not an expert, but the above articles made a huge amount of sense to me and also helped explain some of my own overwhelming fatigue and lack of progress with this kind of program.

[TurbulentFluid]

OK, I have a lot to read - thanx!!!

The thing is, it honestly might be any of the two views you ladies laid out. Maybe another thing to mention is that after 4-5 days in I get constant DOMs that make me lazy to do anything else but train and rest. Also, I usually do swimming or rowing for HIIT and running or stationary biking for moderate cardio, with swimming SPECIALLY earning me extra DOMs... I'm confused.

Maybe reading all that will make stuff clearer!

Edit:

OK, read it, including the comments... and again I am turning very cautious about everything. Some of the info out there seems to be "rigged" to the "safe side", so I never really know what to think. Namely, it seems some of the articles are written in the manner of "I'll tell you to do 15 mins of HIIT / 45 mins of moderate cardio / 5x5 with heaviest weight possible because you'll do it half-arsed / will take too light a weight anyway, so my deliberately wrong info will give good results when you cheat on it". The thing is, I don't cheat. When I'm done with HIIT, I do some more steady state cardio as a cooldown, to drain myself fully. When I do 5x5, I do all the sets to form failure. And yes, I do 2-3 sets of 10 as warmup. When I do moderate cardio, I run for 7-10 km. Does that mean "rigged" info will get me to massively overtrain?
I also do HIIT on non-weight days, and I do moderate cardio 8-10 hours after weight training, so I don't really "deplete my energy" before cardio.

I hear him loud and clear about people combining HIIT + FBW + moderate cardio totally wrong.
What's the right way?

And I am totally NOT ruling out the fact that I'm merely whining. I'm just unsure to how to tell the difference. I won't take the advice on keeping it in maintenance kcal, since I just did that 2 weeks ago, and it showed no results in preventing a mess-up...

[inbetweendays]

Yeah, sorry for the information overload. It is a LOT to take in, and I was really just focusing on the over training possibility that he talks about with the FBW + HIIT + calorie restriction, etc. But I didn't want to quote it all out of context, thus the link to the entire series. Again, sorry if it was over the top.

My takeaway on it as it applies to your situation is this: The thing about FBW 3x per week + HIIT 2x per week is that you end up training legs 5x per week - and if you're pushing really hard on everything (as you say that you are), plus supersetting, plus limiting rests between sets then that's just too much. Add in the big calorie restriction (you mentioned 500 under maintenance) and that's compounding the problem. Given that you're describing symptoms that sound like over training to me, it seems like cutting back on something is warranted. In various places in the linked articles there were different suggestions. For example, on a calorie restriction, cut back leg training to maintenance levels and you can keep the HIIT. Or, keep the FBW and the calorie restrictions, but drop the HITT in favor of steady state cardio instead - which burns almost as many calories per the calculations, but is much less taxing on the body. (Again, this is based on my recall of what I read. I'm not trying to set myself up as an expert here.)

Phew! Now having said all that, I really can't answer the question FOR YOU as to whether you're truly experiencing symptoms of over training or you're just "whining" as you mentioned. But I did want to give you another perspective based on what seemed like some really solid research on the subject.

[freebirdmac]

I think there's a lingo thing going on here. Overtraining isn't determined by diet, it's determined by your exercise regime. Since you are eating at a deficit your recovery will not be as strong as when you are in excess. The weight/cardio program is a good one. There are many others very similar to it. They will be harder when at a deficit, but it is not overtraining. If you want to follow this routine you may need to improve your diet and supplement routine. Instead of a 40/30/30 zone type diet change to a 40/40/20 or 45/35/20. Supplement with creatine, beta-alanine, glutamine, and BCAAs. If you do not load creatine and take 1/2 the recommended dose it will gradually build to levels that will be productive without bloating. This should help with soreness.

No matter what you do, if you do it with intensity it will increase your hunger. Cutting back cals increases your hunger. That's just the way it is. Leaning out = hunger

[TurbulentFluid]

No matter what you do, if you do it with intensity it will increase your hunger. Cutting back cals increases your hunger. That's just the way it is. Leaning out = hunger

Hehe OK OK... I get what you mean... It's true, I did forget about that, on a very subconscious level.

However, if I'll need "creatine, beta-alanine, glutamine, and BCAAs" to sustain this program, then it's too demanding a program, I'm not competitive and I can do well without any of tese aside of BCAAs. ATM I'm taking Omega3 and Tonalin.

inbetweendays, not at all, I'm very grateful for the stuff - I love to read up, and it's been one of my pitfalls, I read too many contradicting ideas and, as the author states, mixed them up hoping to get an even better result, bbut ended up not getting ANY results. The indicative thing, I think, is that I lean out as soon as I STOP training at the gym so much (2 months in the summer I train at home, much shorter and fewer sessions, everything in 8-10 reps, free weights only).

To rule out the very possibly issue of me whining, I'll try to "suck it up" once more and keep up my routine. I've skipped 1 FBW session this week and will do only light and moderate one, and will start everything up on shedule next week. After that, if I feel volatile, I'll start by reducing leg training to 2x per week, 1x lmoderate, 1xheavy. Of course, I'm not a HIIT freak, the thing about HIIT is that it takes much less TIME, and with my shedule, that's a good thing.

Does any of this make sense...?

[freebirdmac]

Personally I'd save that type programs for a bulk and use a more traditional split with legs once or twice a week during a lean out phase. You don't need anything fancy to lean out. Just challenging enough weights to at least maintain your current muscle mass and enough intensity to make good use of weightlifting's calorie burning effects.

[TurbulentFluid]

Eh... I thought 3xFBW was the uncomplicated, un-fancy solution to muscle maintenance and methabolic boost during a cut?

[Euqinom]

Eh... I thought 3xFBW was the uncomplicated, un-fancy solution to muscle maintenance and methabolic boost during a cut?

Depends on the workout. If you do, for instance, all compounds in one workout, and you'll hit them in two days AGAIN, that's a pretty heavy load! There's simply less time for recovery, if you'd arrange it like that.

I just read that you do 10 exercises per W.o. In my mind, waaaaaaaay overdoing it. Is every workout the same except for reprange?

[TurbulentFluid]

Depends on the workout. If you do, for instance, all compounds in one workout, and you'll hit them in two days AGAIN, that's a pretty heavy load! There's simply less time for recovery, if you'd arrange it like that.

I just read that you do 10 exercises per W.o. In my mind, waaaaaaaay overdoing it. Is every workout the same except for reprange?

Nope, every w/o is different, but the logic is more or less the same (eg, pulldown -> pullup, squat -> leg press, NOT bench pres -> tric extension). I'll post details in a few hours, when I get home (don't have the specifics atm, @ work

[freebirdmac]

Eh... I thought 3xFBW was the uncomplicated, un-fancy solution to muscle maintenance and methabolic boost during a cut?

If you weren't doing the heavy rotation I'd agree. But once you get in to the 5x5 range, I'd leave that for a bulk cycle.

[TurbulentFluid]

OK, here's the other two days:

Light day:

No. exercise warmup set #1 set #2 set #3 set #4
3 flat db bench press - tw 15x12.5 12x17.5 11x17.5 8x17.5
4 narrow-grip bench press 15x27 12x31 12x31 12x31
5 bent-arm bb pullover 12x17 10x22 12x19.5 12x19.5
6 EZ bar row 15x27 12x42 12x42 12x42
7 overhead squat 12x21 12x21 12x21 12x23.5
8 plie db squats 15x12.5 12x20 12x22.5 12x22.5
1 press - situp 10x3 8x5 7x5 12 12
2 seated leg-tucks 10 10 8 10 10
9 db upright row x 14x5s 8x10s 9x10s
10 db press x 12x10s 10x10s 10x10s
11 arnold curls x 12x10s 12x10s 12x10s
12 EZ bar curls - 21s x 7-4-7x17 7-4-7x17 7-4-7x17


Moderate day:

No. exercise warmup set #1 set #2 set #3 set #4
1 decline crunch 10 10 10 10
2 incline leg raises 8 6 6 8
3 Lat Pulldown - B 12x35 9x45 8x45 9x45
4 b-o dumbbell row 12x10s 10x12s 9x14s 9x14s
5 hyperextensions 10x0 8x10 8x10 8x10
6 leg curls x 10x20 10x20 10x25
7 leg press 10x80 10x100 10x100 12x100
8 incline bench press 10x30 7x40 6x40 6x40
9 cable crossover 10x15 10x20 10x20 10x20
10 preacher curl (EZ) x 8x20 8x20 8x20
11 french press x 10x20 10x20 10x20

Sorry 'bout weird tabs, I can't get this forum to "read" them right, but you'll get the picture...

OK.. .so 5x5, 4x6 etc aren't optimal rep ranges for a FBW for fat loss..? I kinda thought so... Should I dump the "heavy" day and re-set the reps to moderate...?

[freebirdmac]

Couldn't hurt.

Whenever I've done a 5x5 program I *have* to eat. Not only because I get ravenous but because my body needs the fuel for workouts and recovery. Recovery in particular.

[aznprincess]

Personally I'd save that type programs for a bulk and use a more traditional split with legs once or twice a week during a lean out phase. You don't need anything fancy to lean out. Just challenging enough weights to at least maintain your current muscle mass and enough intensity to make good use of weightlifting's calorie burning effects.

^^^ this.

my gut is that you're trying to do too much volume for your calorie intake which is leading to binging b/c your body is telling you that you need more food to sustain your activity.

if you're trying to cut fat and eating at a good deficit, your focus should be on maintaining muscle. you don't need to do tons of cardio or HIIT either to burn fat at a good rate. i think a person has to listen to their body....

some of us can do 3 full body wk outs/wk with 2 HIIT and 3 steady state / wk at a 500+ cal deficit and feel great. i personally can't and when i push "activity" too hard, i binge.

i know you want to feel like you're doing everything to reach your goal of fat loss but you have to be realistic. if you're not able to maintain the diet... the rest is being wasted for the most part. (in regard to fat loss)

say for example if you were to do 2 full body workouts a week and 3 steady state cardio at a good deficit.... you're going to lose fat, maintain muscle AND stay on the diet. know what i mean? <---this is an example, i'm not prescribing this be what you do....basically saying, you need to DO less and EAT less consistently. the binging is throwing you off.

[TurbulentFluid]

^^^ this.

my gut is that you're trying to do too much volume for your calorie intake which is leading to binging b/c your body is telling you that you need more food to sustain your activity.

if you're trying to cut fat and eating at a good deficit, your focus should be on maintaining muscle. you don't need to do tons of cardio or HIIT either to burn fat at a good rate. i think a person has to listen to their body....

some of us can do 3 full body wk outs/wk with 2 HIIT and 3 steady state / wk at a 500+ cal deficit and feel great. i personally can't and when i push "activity" too hard, i binge.

i know you want to feel like you're doing everything to reach your goal of fat loss but you have to be realistic. if you're not able to maintain the diet... the rest is being wasted for the most part. (in regard to fat loss)

say for example if you were to do 2 full body workouts a week and 3 steady state cardio at a good deficit.... you're going to lose fat, maintain muscle AND stay on the diet. know what i mean? <---this is an example, i'm not prescribing this be what you do....basically saying, you need to DO less and EAT less consistently. the binging is throwing you off.

I thought as much, thanx for saying it!! I always push more, and I've been horribly frustrated for a long time for not getting results... I'll re-arrange my w/o to make it more sustainable and concentrate on being bang-on on the diet...

[aznprincess]

I thought as much, thanx for saying it!! I always push more, and I've been horribly frustrated for a long time for not getting results... I'll re-arrange my w/o to make it more sustainable and concentrate on being bang-on on the diet...

i can understand this sentiment. i too want to do AS MUCH as i can to reach goals but there just comes this realization that honestly, it's going to take a long time, whatever the goal and you have to be patient.

think of it this way. if you had been more moderate this whole time and been able to hit your diet spot on THIS WHOLE TIME, whenever it was that you started.... how far along would you be?

good luck. choose something and stick with it.

[hmotb555]

This was a good thread! A lot of great information here....good job ladies! Even though this wasn't my thread, it helped me out a lot!

[TurbulentFluid]

think of it this way. if you had been more moderate this whole time and been able to hit your diet spot on THIS WHOLE TIME, whenever it was that you started.... how far along would you be?

Oh I do think that way... it doesn't make me feel great, either. Thanx for all the advice and good wishes, all of you ladies!

And I'm glad the thread helped someone else, too!

[TurbulentFluid]

OK, yeah - I haven't been whining... Yesterday I wasn't up to my cardio so I went for a long dog walk doggie style I mean doggie step (husky step = cca 7-7.5 km/hour) and I ended up getting DOMs in my calves.

So my recovery isn't exactly optimal.

I read a lot of Wet Wolf and Tony Gentilcore stuff, and my eyes have been very much openbed to a LOT of mistakes I was doing, and to how I spent 4 years doing waay too much training and would've had much better results if I didn't (excuse me as I go put my head into the toilet and flush).

That done, I decided to do what the following article suggests: http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...gn_for_dummies

So designing a program with these guidelines was easy, however I'm slightly confused about sets/reps? Any ideas...?

[freebirdmac]

OK, yeah - I haven't been whining... Yesterday I wasn't up to my cardio so I went for a long dog walk doggie style I mean doggie step (husky step = cca 7-7.5 km/hour) and I ended up getting DOMs in my calves.

So my recovery isn't exactly optimal.

I read a lot of Wet Wolf and Tony Gentilcore stuff, and my eyes have been very much openbed to a LOT of mistakes I was doing, and to how I spent 4 years doing waay too much training and would've had much better results if I didn't (excuse me as I go put my head into the toilet and flush).

That done, I decided to do what the following article suggests: http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...gn_for_dummies

So designing a program with these guidelines was easy, however I'm slightly confused about sets/reps? Any ideas...?

In general I'd do 3-4 sets of 6-12 reps. You kind of need to listen to your body and look at what you're doing for each body part and workout.

[TurbulentFluid]

In general I'd do 3-4 sets of 6-12 reps. You kind of need to listen to your body and look at what you're doing for each body part and workout.

OK... I figured as much, with 2 warm up sets for each exercise. I figured I'd stick on the higher side on most exercises (8-10, maybe do 6-8 on squats, pullups and bench... Should be OK. I hope.

[karoline8]

I had been seriously feeling drained for awhile and my lifts started to go down, then I got a horrible head cold that forced me to take 5 days off, after recovering I changed up my workout to a 6 day plan( I have 6 days between working a muscle group again), I'm working while on a calorie restricted diet and my lifts are going back up and I feel so much better and have started dropping fat again...just thought I'd share as I had been working each muscle group 2 times a week doing way more lifts and much more cardio, I lightened up a bit and work the muscles fewer times a week and am better for it

[hmotb555]

OK, yeah - I haven't been whining... Yesterday I wasn't up to my cardio so I went for a long dog walk doggie style I mean doggie step (husky step = cca 7-7.5 km/hour) and I ended up getting DOMs in my calves.

So my recovery isn't exactly optimal.

I read a lot of Wet Wolf and Tony Gentilcore stuff, and my eyes have been very much openbed to a LOT of mistakes I was doing, and to how I spent 4 years doing waay too much training and would've had much better results if I didn't (excuse me as I go put my head into the toilet and flush).

That done, I decided to do what the following article suggests: http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...gn_for_dummies

So designing a program with these guidelines was easy, however I'm slightly confused about sets/reps? Any ideas...?

I like this routine! I started doing it yesterday...I was looking for a full body workout to try so thanks for posting this!