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  1. #1
    Registered User Baby_Hulk's Avatar
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    Trap thickness vs trap height

    I find that my traps have been getting a lot thicker, but not necessarily a whole lot taller (or at least not as tall as I want em). All the deadlifts and shrugs I've been doing seem to be contributing moreso to their thickness rather than height.

    So... yeah. Anything special you guys do that you find really adds height onto your traps? Or is there no such thing?
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  2. #2
    Registered User biggestdog2007's Avatar
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    Its determined by genetics. The muscle is either going to grow or it isnt, the shape it grows is purely down to your genetics.
    Signatures are for phaggots!
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  3. #3
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    angles

    Could try to focus on angles. For example, shrugging straight up and down as opposed to slightly back. I catch myself not going straight up and down, especially with heavy weights I tend to pull slightly back. Other than that, as BD2007 said, probably genetics.
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  4. #4
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Baby_Hulk View Post
    I find that my traps have been getting a lot thicker, but not necessarily a whole lot taller (or at least not as tall as I want em). All the deadlifts and shrugs I've been doing seem to be contributing moreso to their thickness rather than height.

    So... yeah. Anything special you guys do that you find really adds height onto your traps? Or is there no such thing?
    Try doing narrow grip shrugs, or DB shrugs holding the weight in front of you.
    CSCS, ACSM cPT.
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  5. #5
    Iron Lion Gzus's Avatar
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    Muscle origins don't change. If you trap starts relatively low on your 'neck', best you can hope for is full but flat/not tall traps.
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

    Look like you lift and want to do Oly grip Front Squats? - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164421641

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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Try doing narrow grip shrugs, or DB shrugs holding the weight in front of you.
    ya narrow grip shrugs allow the traps to stretch more at the bottom!
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  7. #7
    Unknown sabonis224's Avatar
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    your muscle isn't like play doh, you can't mold it. you workout and stimulate it, it will grow based on your genes. doing one exercise isn't going to send a signal to your body oh my traps have to grow taller or thicker., it just grows.
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  8. #8
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Traps are a fan shaped muscle with multiple main innervations and multiple lines of force. There is plenty of evidence of this both anecdotally but more importantly regarding what has been said, scientifically.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/yfjwvcht14ml16ea/

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...8f792cb58727d2

    http://www.nismat.org/research/artic...althy-subjects

    etc.
    Last edited by Defiant1; 04-10-2010 at 04:33 PM.
    CSCS, ACSM cPT.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Try doing narrow grip shrugs, or DB shrugs holding the weight in front of you.
    So for overall trap development - height and thickness - what would your ideal trap workout look like (srs)?
    ☠ By reading this post, you have agreed to my negative reputation terms of service.
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  10. #10
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    Priest and his short traps, relative to Levrone. And Lee knows how to workout.
    Last edited by Gzus; 04-10-2010 at 05:59 PM.
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

    Look like you lift and want to do Oly grip Front Squats? - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164421641

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  11. #11
    Lemme tell ya sumthin.... palumboism's Avatar
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    Those EMG studies are good for rehabilitation, its true when a muscle is damaged then you should do very controlled movements focusing on a different path the body will cooperate in sending the right signals to make sure it evens out the imbalances until the damage has been fully restored. But after that though the body first priority is to make sure the lifting of the weight happens as efficiently as possible so will make sure to use the strongest part of the muscle doesnt matter where you put your hands.[quote]
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  12. #12
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by sabonis224 View Post
    your muscle isn't like play doh, you can't mold it. you workout and stimulate it, it will grow based on your genes. doing one exercise isn't going to send a signal to your body oh my traps have to grow taller or thicker., it just grows.


    people say that alot and it still confuses me why everybody tries hitting
    the muscles from different angles( i do too)
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  13. #13
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    I heard something about the angle of your collarbones. The closer they are to parallel with the ground, the higher your traps will grow. The more slanted, the less potential for height.
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    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post


    Priest and his short traps, relative to Levrone. And Lee knows how to workout.
    Genetics do play a significant role, but there are "most definitely" exercises and techniques which can take them to their max potential.

    Both you and Defiant1 are both correct.
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  15. #15
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SquatTilYouDrop View Post
    Genetics do play a significant role, but there are "most definitely" exercises and techniques which can take them to their max potential.

    Both you and Defiant1 are both correct.
    Exactly. Not sure why it is so hard to understand nature AND nurture. Just basically governs everything about humans.

    Also strong fallacy of extension and absolutism.

    Frank Zane



    Arnold




    They both obviously know how to work out.


    This proves beyond a doubt that weight training itself has no bearing on your size. It is simply genetics.

    CSCS, ACSM cPT.
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  16. #16
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by palumboism View Post
    Those EMG studies are good for rehabilitation, its true when a muscle is damaged then you should do very controlled movements focusing on a different path the body will cooperate in sending the right signals to make sure it evens out the imbalances until the damage has been fully restored. But after that though the body first priority is to make sure the lifting of the weight happens as efficiently as possible so will make sure to use the strongest part of the muscle doesnt matter where you put your hands.
    Where you put your hands changes the relative "strength" of the muscles. It will also increase or decrease stretch reflect for various fibers/lines of force/muscles themselves.

    Evidence? Length/tension relationship. Addition and subtraction of sarcomeres depending on resistance curve.

    etc.


    etc.


    etc.
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Exactly. Not sure why it is so hard to understand nature AND nurture. Just basically governs everything about humans.

    Also strong fallacy of extension and absolutism.

    Frank Zane

    Arnold


    They both obviously know how to work out.


    This proves beyond a doubt that weight training itself has no bearing on your size. It is simply genetics.


    Maybe Zane took smaller doses...
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by SquatTilYouDrop View Post
    Genetics do play a significant role, but there are "most definitely" exercises and techniques which can take them to their max potential.

    Both you and Defiant1 are both correct.
    Max potential of flat is still flat (relative) though.

    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Also strong fallacy of extension and absolutism.

    Frank Zane



    Arnold




    They both obviously know how to work out.


    This proves beyond a doubt that weight training itself has no bearing on your size. It is simply genetics.

    Lee and Kevin have actually competed in the same era, have the same physique goal and were hitting the same pose in competition shape. All else being equal, Kevin takes that pose every time. Proves the point I was actually making.
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

    Look like you lift and want to do Oly grip Front Squats? - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164421641

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    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post
    Max potential of flat is still flat (relative) though.


    Lee and Kevin have actually competed in the same era, have the same physique goal and were hitting the same pose in competition shape. All else being equal, Kevin takes that pose every time. Proves the point I was actually making.
    So exercise selection/techniques have no impact and are a waste of time in your opinion, genetically speaking. Is that the point you are trying to make?

    And how do you know those two trained identical? Or are you guessing?
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  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by SquatTilYouDrop View Post
    So exercise selection/techniques have no impact and are a waste of time in your opinion, genetically speaking. Is that the point you are trying to make?

    And how do you know those two trained identical? Or are you guessing?
    Never had lunch with Lee or Kevin. But they are being judged on the same criteria and Lee's job is to try and win. So it's more than reasonable to assume that Lee knows trap development is necessary and that he does in fact train them to max potential.

    If your traps start higher up on your neck than mine (more favorable shape), we both train them superbly, you will have the high+full=better traps. So the point I'm making is, don't expect miracles.
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

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    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post

    Lee and Kevin have actually competed in the same era, have the same physique goal and were hitting the same pose in competition shape. All else being equal, Kevin takes that pose every time. Proves the point I was actually making.
    No. It shows that "controllable" results does not mean ABSOLUTELY controllable results.


    Their is no real "argument" regarding trap-thickness vs trap height. The traps are divided into AT LEAST 3 separate sections, with their own main innervations, and the ability the recruit with some independence.

    Right here, in black and white:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...74ce6c2ad47fab

    The essentially transverse orientation of the upper and middle fibres of trapezius precludes any action as elevators of the scapula as commonly depicted. Rather the action of these fibres is to draw the scapula and clavicle backwards or to raise the scapula by rotating the clavicle about the sternoclavicular joint.


    by the way...Frank Zane and Arnold also competed in the same era....
    Last edited by Defiant1; 04-11-2010 at 04:28 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    No. It shows that "controllable" results does not mean ABSOLUTELY controllable results.

    To beat Levrone's trap, Lee's has to start from the upper red line instead of the lower. Either that or he elongates his neck a couple inches. Unfamiliar with any exercises that can do that.

    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Their is no real "argument" regarding trap-thickness vs trap height. The traps are divided into AT LEAST 3 separate sections, with their own main innervations, and the ability the recruit with some independence.

    Right here, in black and white:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...74ce6c2ad47fab

    The essentially transverse orientation of the upper and middle fibres of trapezius precludes any action as elevators of the scapula as commonly depicted. Rather the action of these fibres is to draw the scapula and clavicle backwards or to raise the scapula by rotating the clavicle about the sternoclavicular joint.
    Traps could be divided into 10 separate sections with a million and 6 ways to recruit them. You need to increase the angle between the clavicle and neck to make the last side of the triangle (shape of area of interest) longer. Which would give the appearance of a higher trap.

    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    by the way...Frank Zane and Arnold also competed in the same era....
    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post
    Lee and Kevin have actually competed in the same era, have the same physique goal and were hitting the same pose in competition shape.
    Relevant in bold.
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

    Look like you lift and want to do Oly grip Front Squats? - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164421641

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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post

    To beat Levrone's trap, Lee's has to start from the upper red line instead of the lower. Either that or he elongates his neck a couple inches. Unfamiliar with any exercises that can do that.


    Traps could be divided into 10 separate sections with a million and 6 ways to recruit them. You need to increase the angle between the clavicle and neck to make the last side of the triangle (shape of area of interest) longer. Which would give the appearance of a higher trap.



    Relevant in bold.
    You are obfuscating the discussion. The question was "trap height vs thickness".

    Trap "height" would be development of the traps 1, the traps that come off the shoulder. Trap "thickness" would be 2-3.

    Not even an issue.
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    You are obfuscating the discussion. The question was "trap height vs thickness".

    Trap "height" would be development of the traps 1, the traps that come off the shoulder. Trap "thickness" would be 2-3.

    Not even an issue.
    OP said his traps are getting a whole lot thicker but not much taller and particularly not as tall as he would like. His goal is to 'really add height'.

    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post
    Muscle origins don't change. If you trap starts relatively low on your 'neck', best you can hope for is full but flat/not tall traps.
    My first post, which I elaborated further and further. Don't see how one could be doing deads and shrugs, end up in a situation of excess mass:height and then do some more shrugs and a tighten that ratio. Just sounds like a guy who just has some naturally very flat traps (relative to the people he's definitely compared himself to hence why he feels he needs more height).
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

    Look like you lift and want to do Oly grip Front Squats? - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164421641

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    Originally Posted by Gzus View Post
    OP said his traps are getting a whole lot thicker but not much taller and particularly not as tall as he would like. His goal is to 'really add height'.
    Right...development of the upper trapezius, particularly off the shoulder, as opposed to lower...

    My first post, which I elaborated further and further. Don't see how one could be doing deads and shrugs, end up in a situation of excess mass:height and then do some more shrugs and a tighten that ratio. Just sounds like a guy who just has some naturally very flat traps (relative to the people he's definitely compared himself to hence why he feels he needs more height).
    Pretty simple. Deads definitely add to trap thickness due to the line of pull. Not a mystery.

    Shrugs if done wrong can have the same effect (shrugging back, not up). Why I suggested shrugging in a way which pretty much makes going "straight up" idiot proof. It also puts stretch on the outer part of the upper traps, increasing their activation (myotatic reflex).
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Right...development of the upper trapezius, particularly off the shoulder, as opposed to lower...
    Development of the upper trap would take you from having a concave to convex look. You've added trap mass. If you have traps that sit low, you will get low sitting convex/thick traps. Have low expectations for the illusion that adding MASS to your upper fibers will have on HEIGHT, if you have naturally flat traps....is what I'm saying.


    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    The essentially transverse orientation of the upper and middle fibres of trapezius precludes any action as elevators of the scapula as commonly depicted. Rather the action of these fibres is to draw the scapula and clavicle backwards or to raise the scapula by rotating the clavicle about the sternoclavicular joint.
    *bold you, underlined was interesting to me*. So deadlifting is a better way to add mass to your upper trapezius vs shrugging. Problem with EMG studies is carry over i.e. the practicality of deadlifting heavier and heavier in the quest for upper and middle fiber growth.

    Originally Posted by Defiant1 View Post
    Deads definitely add to trap thickness due to the line of pull. Not a mystery.

    Shrugs if done wrong can have the same effect (shrugging back, not up).
    From the few lines of that article's abstract, someone can take that deadlifting is a good way and shrugging back (scap upward rotation+retraction) is an even better way to hit the upper and middle fibers.

    Well known that you can build a bull neck with deads/rack pulls. A lot of being see shrugs as a way to show off first, and a mass builder second.

    OP does deadlift and shrug (remote that he's doing standing dumbell scapula retractions instead of shrugs), has seen great increase in thickness, YET has poor upper trap development? I think that's unlikely. Or that moving his hands a few inches closer during shrugs will add some of that missing height. And doing DB shrugs with hands in front makes it difficult to keep your shoulders and head back = excess wear and tear on acromioclavicular joint and sternum.

    Yes the trap has 3 divisions that can each be prioritized and each with the ability to have varying localized levels of activation. No you can't go from low thick traps to high thick traps, and for the sake of specificity I mean when viewed from the front.
    Dillon you sob, C.I.A. got you pushing too many pencils? Fix posture - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123812871

    Look like you lift and want to do Oly grip Front Squats? - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=164421641

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