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  1. #1
    Registered User co1e_train's Avatar
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    ALA, Chromium, and Post workout nutrition

    Hey guys,

    So I have been doing my hw on how I can help my body optimally store and utilize carbs as glycogen in the muscle and have read that ALA and Chromium help with this. ALA supposedly will help "pull" carbs as glycogen into the muscle by emulating insulin and Chromium appears to help carbohydrate metabolism. I bring this up here because I don't recall seeing these two things talked about here on the board so I am wondering if they are worth using. I ask because I feel like I am able to gain fat somewhat easily which I am assuming from carbs so if I can help my body opt to store carbs as glycogen then fat then im all for it.

    Secondly, It seems that when it comes to post workout nutrition there are two camps per se. I am still researching which is optimally but I have read its best to slam down all the carbs you can postworkout and then have the rest of your meals have one's normal carb level and others say have a decent number of carbs in your post workout shake/meal and then have another meal shortly there after containing a higher amount of carbs then one would normally have in a regular meal. I was just curious on what you guys and ladies think about that. Like I said im currently doing hw in this area.

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
    ur not ur f*cking khakis bwelch1985's Avatar
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    Moderation.

    No need to slam an enormous amount of carbs pwo. Just try to get in some carbs (this number varies depending on your daily cho intake), some protein (again this varies based on LBM) and personally, I like to avoid too much fat. But it certainly won't hurt you to have a decent amount of fat in this meal as well.

    Think of post workout as any other meal really. It should be balanced and in proportion to your other meals.

    Don't know about the supps....I'd be surprised if they provided any sort of SUBSTANTIAL benefit beyond what you get from a simple multivitamin.
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    Hey guys,

    So I have been doing my hw on how I can help my body optimally store and utilize carbs as glycogen in the muscle and have read that ALA and Chromium help with this. ALA supposedly will help "pull" carbs as glycogen into the muscle by emulating insulin and Chromium appears to help carbohydrate metabolism. I bring this up here because I don't recall seeing these two things talked about here on the board so I am wondering if they are worth using. I ask because I feel like I am able to gain fat somewhat easily which I am assuming from carbs so if I can help my body opt to store carbs as glycogen then fat then im all for it.

    Secondly, It seems that when it comes to post workout nutrition there are two camps per se. I am still researching which is optimally but I have read its best to slam down all the carbs you can postworkout and then have the rest of your meals have one's normal carb level and others say have a decent number of carbs in your post workout shake/meal and then have another meal shortly there after containing a higher amount of carbs then one would normally have in a regular meal. I was just curious on what you guys and ladies think about that. Like I said im currently doing hw in this area.

    Thanks!

    No offense bro, but you see that lil button that says "SEARCH" up in the upper right hand corner? Go to the supplement forum and type what it is you're looking for.

    I'll give you a hint-chromium is basically garbage. ALA has great antioxidant benefits. Search for "insulin mimickers" and "glucose disposal agents"
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  4. #4
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    More importantly, pre-workout nutrition!
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    Originally Posted by bwelch1985 View Post
    Moderation.

    No need to slam an enormous amount of carbs pwo. Just try to get in some carbs (this number varies depending on your daily cho intake), some protein (again this varies based on LBM) and personally, I like to avoid too much fat. But it certainly won't hurt you to have a decent amount of fat in this meal as well.

    Think of post workout as any other meal really. It should be balanced and in proportion to your other meals.
    Thanks bro,

    I didn't think that it was necessary to slam down large amounts of carbs pwo but I just wasn't sure if it should have been approached differently then any other meal.

    I norm just do a banana and oats for my carbs.


    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    No offense bro, but you see that lil button that says "SEARCH" up in the upper right hand corner? Go to the supplement forum and type what it is you're looking for.

    I'll give you a hint-chromium is basically garbage. ALA has great antioxidant benefits. Search for "insulin mimickers" and "glucose disposal agents"
    None taken man

    Truth be told I pulled another "noob move" and didn't even think about searching there but ill do so.

    Originally Posted by thepacman View Post
    More importantly, pre-workout nutrition!
    Im glad you bring this up pacman because typically I do oats with egg whites, sometimes with raisins and a tbsp of natty pb (i make a pancake of sorts because my pre workout is needed to be eaten when I have class, which is an hour and half or so before I do my first set.) I've been under the impression that as long as you get a good amount of protein related to your macro your good to go but as for carb intake im a little unclear. Should the pre and post workout meals have the most carbs in them throughout your day? Or should breakfast and postworkout have the most assuming your first meal or breakfast isn't your preworkout.

    Thanks boys
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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    No offense bro, but you see that lil button that says "SEARCH" up in the upper right hand corner? Go to the supplement forum and type what it is you're looking for.

    I'll give you a hint-chromium is basically garbage. ALA has great antioxidant benefits. Search for "insulin mimickers" and "glucose disposal agents"
    I don't think chromium is garbage exactly...depends on which type. The usual crap you find sold alone and in supps is chromium picolinate, which can actually be toxic in high doses and long term use has been questionable for health. However, chromium polynicotinate may be a different story.

    I did some research on GDA's a while back so my memory may be blurry, but I do recall reading that polynicotinate is the better of the two.

    I actually take this stuff called Slin-Trol, which is a GDA supplement. I do notice a smoother feeling of "clean running energy" and some nice veinage when I take a tab with each of my carb meals on my refeed day. That's just my personal experience. Could just be the carbs, or could be the supplement but it's supposed to shuttle more of the glucose into your muscles and less into fat cells so I'll take all the help I can get.

    And yeah OP, do a search.
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  7. #7
    Registered User co1e_train's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    And yeah OP, do a search.
    Just did

    Are shifting through some posts at the supplement section, as well as through google, it seems that the general consensus is that it ALA is beneficial so Im thinking Ill pick some up. If I can encourage more glycogen in muscles, and less to fat, im all for it.

    Im going to keep researching and searching for more insulin mimickers and see what I can find and post here.

    It may because im not yet a long time member of these boards but it seems odd that I havnt heard or seen much more about this topic.

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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    I don't think chromium is garbage exactly...depends on which type. The usual crap you find sold alone and in supps is chromium picolinate, which can actually be toxic in high doses and long term use has been questionable for health. However, chromium polynicotinate may be a different story.

    I did some research on GDA's a while back so my memory may be blurry, but I do recall reading that polynicotinate is the better of the two.

    I actually take this stuff called Slin-Trol, which is a GDA supplement. I do notice a smoother feeling of "clean running energy" and some nice veinage when I take a tab with each of my carb meals on my refeed day. That's just my personal experience. Could just be the carbs, or could be the supplement but it's supposed to shuttle more of the glucose into your muscles and less into fat cells so I'll take all the help I can get.

    And yeah OP, do a search.

    Actually, yeah I have read that too. I shouldn't have assumed picolinate so quickly my bad.

    I personally love Glycobol and "Slin-Sane"

    How much they REALLY help I'm not totally sure. Anabolic Pump in higher doses def seemed to work however
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    I don't think chromium is garbage exactly...depends on which type. The usual crap you find sold alone and in supps is chromium picolinate, which can actually be toxic in high doses and long term use has been questionable for health. However, chromium polynicotinate may be a different story.

    I did some research on GDA's a while back so my memory may be blurry, but I do recall reading that polynicotinate is the better of the two.

    I actually take this stuff called Slin-Trol, which is a GDA supplement. I do notice a smoother feeling of "clean running energy" and some nice veinage when I take a tab with each of my carb meals on my refeed day. That's just my personal experience. Could just be the carbs, or could be the supplement but it's supposed to shuttle more of the glucose into your muscles and less into fat cells so I'll take all the help I can get.

    And yeah OP, do a search.
    Yes, it's true that one form is a lot more bioavailable than the other, but unless you have a deficiency, MORE chromium is not going to do anything other than what your body is already doing. If you have a deficiency, or diabetic, then that's a different story.

    Not to mention there's no research at all showing chromium does anything in humans. But there are several studies that show it does nothing.

    And the whole "clean running energy" description can easily be termed "placebo"

    If want to really know how the body works with respect to this topic, you should ask Layne. He will also explain to you how the whole glucometer method Tipsta tries to use to prove supplemental chromium helps doesn't apply.

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    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    Actually, yeah I have read that too. I shouldn't have assumed picolinate so quickly my bad.

    I personally love Glycobol and "Slin-Sane"

    How much they REALLY help I'm not totally sure. Anabolic Pump in higher doses def seemed to work however
    I don't know about Glycobol, but AP uses banaba extract, which has been shown in studies to activate GLUT4, which is through a completely different mechanism than chromium.

    I would believe AP/Pslin has a better shot at producing those desired effects than chromium or vanadyl ever would.

    Think about it...you have a certain amount of chromium in your body, and your genetics, insulin sensitivity, etc. is utilizing that chromium - how it uses the chromium isn't determined by the amount. Adding more is not going to change your insulin sensitivity.

    Now, if you were deficient, then yes.

    Think of it this way - if you have testosterone on the low side of normal, but STILL normal, and you increase testosterone higher, but STILL in the normal range, do you think there is going to be a noticeable difference in size, strength, etc.? No. Same thing here.

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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    Just did

    Are shifting through some posts at the supplement section, as well as through google, it seems that the general consensus is that it ALA is beneficial so Im thinking Ill pick some up. If I can encourage more glycogen in muscles, and less to fat, im all for it.

    Im going to keep researching and searching for more insulin mimickers and see what I can find and post here.

    It may because im not yet a long time member of these boards but it seems odd that I havnt heard or seen much more about this topic.

    -the train
    ALA has some solid research behind it as a insulin potentiator...if nothing else, it is a great anti-oxidant.

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    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post
    ALA has some solid research behind it as a insulin potentiator...if nothing else, it is a great anti-oxidant.

    Sporto
    Ok cool man, thanks for the input!

    I was thinking that it is a worth while to supplement it as I am hearing nothing but the benefits of its effects on insulin and for, like you said, anti-oxidant benefits. The only thing that I find through my research that varies is how to dose it. The general consensus I get is to take it with several of your larger carb meals throughout the day at 300-600mg.

    Is there a mg/lb ratio anyone knows of or anything of the sort?

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    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post
    I don't know about Glycobol, but AP uses banaba extract, which has been shown in studies to activate GLUT4, which is through a completely different mechanism than chromium.

    I would believe AP/Pslin has a better shot at producing those desired effects than chromium or vanadyl ever would.

    Think about it...you have a certain amount of chromium in your body, and your genetics, insulin sensitivity, etc. is utilizing that chromium - how it uses the chromium isn't determined by the amount. Adding more is not going to change your insulin sensitivity.

    Now, if you were deficient, then yes.

    Think of it this way - if you have testosterone on the low side of normal, but STILL normal, and you increase testosterone higher, but STILL in the normal range, do you think there is going to be a noticeable difference in size, strength, etc.? No. Same thing here.

    Sporto

    I'm pretty sure glycobol is similar to chromium in lowering insulin? Or making someone more insulin sensitive. I know what I mean but I'm probably wording it wrong. AP helps with glucose uptake within the cells right?
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    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    I'm pretty sure glycobol is similar to chromium in lowering insulin? Or making someone more insulin sensitive. I know what I mean but I'm probably wording it wrong. AP helps with glucose uptake within the cells right?
    Honestly I can't really comment on Glycobol because I don't know anything about the ingredients they have in there other than the Na-R-ALA, which I've already talked about. From what they claim, all ingredients are supposedly insulin potentiators...

    The theory behind the chromium is that if you make insulin more efficient, than less is released for the same carb intake, therefore less fat storage, etc. This is based on chromium being one of the main things that helps insulin do its normal job. The problem is, more chormium does not trigger less insulin (even with the more bioavailable form)...which is why no study shows any benefit to glucose disposal.

    The way AP/Pslin works is by activating GLUT4 through the banaba extract (lots of good research done with diabetics with this plant), causing less insulin secretion. If GLUT4 has already been activated, the body releases less insulin per given carb amounts (GLUT4 is trigger for insulin).

    So, like I said, I would use Ap/Pslin over chromium/vanadyl any day if that was the purpose of using the supplement.

    Sporto

    * Adding - you don't want to use a product like AP/Pslin with ALA as they would produce a contraindication with each other...you would use AP/Pslin before a pre-workout meal, and then ALA/R-ALA with your post workout meal IF you believe that insulin spiking post workout is optimal. Otherwise, just do another AP/Pslin dose before the post workout meal.
    Last edited by Sporto1633; 03-26-2010 at 05:16 PM.
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    Originally Posted by co1e_train View Post
    Ok cool man, thanks for the input!

    I was thinking that it is a worth while to supplement it as I am hearing nothing but the benefits of its effects on insulin and for, like you said, anti-oxidant benefits. The only thing that I find through my research that varies is how to dose it. The general consensus I get is to take it with several of your larger carb meals throughout the day at 300-600mg.

    Is there a mg/lb ratio anyone knows of or anything of the sort?

    -the train
    The research shows best results with 300-600mg with pre and post workout meals...with diminishing returns beyond that.

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    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post
    Yes, it's true that one form is a lot more bioavailable than the other, but unless you have a deficiency, MORE chromium is not going to do anything other than what your body is already doing. If you have a deficiency, or diabetic, then that's a different story.

    Not to mention there's no research at all showing chromium does anything in humans. But there are several studies that show it does nothing.

    And the whole "clean running energy" description can easily be termed "placebo"

    If want to really know how the body works with respect to this topic, you should ask Layne. He will also explain to you how the whole glucometer method Tipsta tries to use to prove supplemental chromium helps doesn't apply.

    Sporto
    I know about Tipsta's GDA protocol and I've tested my blood glucose levels myself with a meter. Pricked my finger, put blood on the test strip, etc. I've done this with and without GDA's and with GDA's my blood glucose was always lower after eating a carb meal. Whether or not this means it's working or not I am not sure. I'll ask Layne. Thanks Sporto!
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    Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    I know about Tipsta's GDA protocol and I've tested my blood glucose levels myself with a meter. Pricked my finger, put blood on the test strip, etc. I've done this with and without GDA's and with GDA's my blood glucose was always lower after eating a carb meal. Whether or not this means it's working or not I am not sure. I'll ask Layne. Thanks Sporto!
    Definitely ask Layne - I had a long talk with him as soon as all that blew up on MD between Tipsta and I and he explained in detail why that doesn't really apply and why that method doesn't really tell you what you are wanting to know in that situation...

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    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post
    Definitely ask Layne - I had a long talk with him as soon as all that blew up on MD between Tipsta and I and he explained in detail why that doesn't really apply and why that method doesn't really tell you what you are wanting to know in that situation...

    Sporto
    lol I saw that...good times!
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    Originally Posted by jackedrabbit View Post
    I know about Tipsta's GDA protocol and I've tested my blood glucose levels myself with a meter. Pricked my finger, put blood on the test strip, etc. I've done this with and without GDA's and with GDA's my blood glucose was always lower after eating a carb meal. Whether or not this means it's working or not I am not sure. I'll ask Layne. Thanks Sporto!
    So you BG levels are lower, but ask yourself this.....so what? It doesn't tell you where calories/glucose is going in the body it just tells you that it is getting out of the bloodstream. Upregulating GLUT-4 or other skeletal muscle transporters is different because your changing where glucose is going. So unless your goal is to either lower glucose in a normal range (from excessive insulin resistance, which is really only reserved for those that are obese or completely inactive), OR if your goal is to make yourself go hypoglycemic (which I'm sure OTC slin mimickers don't have the power to do) then it is pointless to supplement with them.

    GDAs = a weak alternative for obese type 2 diabetics that are too lazy to diet and exercise

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=111082701

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    Originally Posted by devo09 View Post
    So you BG levels are lower, but ask yourself this.....so what? It doesn't tell you where calories/glucose is going in the body it just tells you that it is getting out of the bloodstream. Upregulating GLUT-4 or other skeletal muscle transporters is different because your changing where glucose is going. So unless your goal is to either lower glucose in a normal range (from excessive insulin resistance, which is really only reserved for those that are obese or completely inactive), OR if your goal is to make yourself go hypoglycemic (which I'm sure OTC slin mimickers don't have the power to do) then it is pointless to supplement with them.

    GDAs = a weak alternative for obese type 2 diabetics that are too lazy to diet and exercise

    That does make the most sense. Do you not go near this stuff since you are diabetic? Or are you able to use such products?
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    I'm interested. So, the purpose behind using GDAs is to not lower the amount of insulin released when you ingest carbs, but to change how nutrients are distributed in the body.
    To really dumb it down, for instance less carbs would be stored as fat and more would end up in the muscle as glycogen?

    If that's the case then I'm buying every GDA on the planet :P Same caloric intake, more energy, less fat.

    Time to bust out some search function...

    @Sporto: From your posts it seems that AP is only effective pre and post workouts. Is AP only effective when carbs are higher?
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    Originally Posted by jth16 View Post
    I'm interested. So, the purpose behind using GDAs is to not lower the amount of insulin released when you ingest carbs, but to change how nutrients are distributed in the body.
    To really dumb it down, for instance less carbs would be stored as fat and more would end up in the muscle as glycogen?

    If that's the case then I'm buying every GDA on the planet :P Same caloric intake, more energy, less fat.

    Time to bust out some search function...

    @Sporto: From your posts it seems that AP is only effective pre and post workouts. Is AP only effective when carbs are higher?
    Not that I'm Sporto but I also have seen MattyH say something like when mega dosing AP he had much less bloat and apparent fat gain during and after cheats
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    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    That does make the most sense. Do you not go near this stuff since you are diabetic? Or are you able to use such products?
    I'm used them because I thought that if they make it so I require less insulin that it would be easier to manage my glucose levels (i.e. for 60 carbs maybe I'd only need 3.5 units instead of 5 or something)

    ...i noticed ZERO difference at all, except that I'd thrown a bunch of money away lol
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    Originally Posted by devo09 View Post
    I'm used them because I thought that if they make it so I require less insulin that it would be easier to manage my glucose levels (i.e. for 60 carbs maybe I'd only need 3.5 units instead of 5 or something)

    ...i noticed ZERO difference at all, except that I'd thrown a bunch of money away lol
    fair enough ha
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    Originally Posted by devo09 View Post
    So you BG levels are lower, but ask yourself this.....so what? It doesn't tell you where calories/glucose is going in the body it just tells you that it is getting out of the bloodstream. Upregulating GLUT-4 or other skeletal muscle transporters is different because your changing where glucose is going. So unless your goal is to either lower glucose in a normal range (from excessive insulin resistance, which is really only reserved for those that are obese or completely inactive), OR if your goal is to make yourself go hypoglycemic (which I'm sure OTC slin mimickers don't have the power to do) then it is pointless to supplement with them.

    GDAs = a weak alternative for obese type 2 diabetics that are too lazy to diet and exercise

    You so smart

    Originally Posted by jth16 View Post
    I'm interested. So, the purpose behind using GDAs is to not lower the amount of insulin released when you ingest carbs, but to change how nutrients are distributed in the body.
    To really dumb it down, for instance less carbs would be stored as fat and more would end up in the muscle as glycogen?

    If that's the case then I'm buying every GDA on the planet :P Same caloric intake, more energy, less fat.

    Time to bust out some search function...

    @Sporto: From your posts it seems that AP is only effective pre and post workouts. Is AP only effective when carbs are higher?
    Jordan - we are saying that it is pointless to supplement with GDAs like chromium and vanadyl...so don't go buy every one on the planet LOL

    That's was the original theory behind those two when they first came out as the magic wonder fat loss pills, but they simply don't perform the way everybody thought they would and the research shows it. Not to mention the tens of thousands of pros who get peeled with paper thin skin that never use the crap and don't have a problem shuttling carbs into muscles...

    And why is that? Because if you control nutrient timing, then these are useless anyway.

    Originally Posted by DanTheManB View Post
    Not that I'm Sporto but I also have seen MattyH say something like when mega dosing AP he had much less bloat and apparent fat gain during and after cheats
    And there's a little trick to using AP for maximum fat loss that only a few know about

    And no, I'm not telling my secret...lol

    Originally Posted by devo09 View Post
    I'm used them because I thought that if they make it so I require less insulin that it would be easier to manage my glucose levels (i.e. for 60 carbs maybe I'd only need 3.5 units instead of 5 or something)

    ...i noticed ZERO difference at all, except that I'd thrown a bunch of money away lol
    See, even a diabetic shows no benefit. What makes you think that a person with normal chromium levels would be any different?

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    One more thing - and I think this happens to be the most RELEVANT point to this whole discussion.

    The supplements that we all take and what kind of arsenal we have is always budget dependent. If you are spending "X" amount of dollars on a supplement like a GDA (which, again, you don't need if you are good with nutrient timing anyway), then you are far better off spending that same amount of money on something that you KNOW you can get a benefit from.

    For instance, there are some cheap hidden gems in the market that have solid research behind them that are relatively cheap and pack a HUGE punch...

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    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post

    For instance, there are some cheap hidden gems in the market that have solid research behind them that are relatively cheap and pack a HUGE punch...

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    vit d3 ftw
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    Originally Posted by devo09 View Post
    vit d3 ftw
    That's certainly one of them!

    There are a couple of others - one more in the "test boosting" area and one more in the "fat loss" area...

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    Hey fella's op here,

    First thing first, awesome discussion def reading things that are currently way over my head but am for sure taking it all in and trying to get a good knowledgeable grasp and understanding.

    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post
    Honestly I can't really comment on Glycobol because I don't know anything about the ingredients they have in there other than the Na-R-ALA, which I've already talked about. From what they claim, all ingredients are supposedly insulin potentiators...


    The way AP/Pslin works is by activating GLUT4 through the banaba extract (lots of good research done with diabetics with this plant), causing less insulin secretion. If GLUT4 has already been activated, the body releases less insulin per given carb amounts (GLUT4 is trigger for insulin).

    Sporto

    * Adding - you don't want to use a product like AP/Pslin with ALA as they would produce a contraindication with each other...you would use AP/Pslin before a pre-workout meal, and then ALA/R-ALA with your post workout meal IF you believe that insulin spiking post workout is optimal. Otherwise, just do another AP/Pslin dose before the post workout meal.
    So you would use AP's slin pre workout so that you can activate more GLUT4 to drive more glycogen into the muscle to be used during your workout and the ALA post workout to aide the replenishing of glycogen in your muscles from your post workout carbs? Why could you not just use one product or the other as I thought they did the same thing but Im thinking i missed something. It may have to do with my understanding of what GLUT4 does which I understand basically is what aides or transports the glucose in and out of cells? Im not totally sure as I am having a hard time even understanding some of the definitions I am finding about it.


    Originally Posted by Sporto1633 View Post

    And why is that? Because if you control nutrient timing, then these are useless anyway.

    And there's a little trick to using AP for maximum fat loss that only a few know about

    And no, I'm not telling my secret...lol

    Sporto
    Bummer to the last sentence:P

    But are you saying here the control nutrient timing directly effects how your body regulates and uptakes glycogen into the muscle? Sorry I havn't put a lot of research into that topic yet but I couldn't refrain from asking. Sorry for the noob question

    Originally Posted by devo09 View Post
    vit d3 ftw
    Ok, I understand that D3 helps and or boost Test levels correct? Or am I mistaken? Im having trouble finding a solid answer.
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