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  1. #1
    Registered User loknar's Avatar
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    Why do liberals want to control everything?

    As we all know now the healthcare bill is now the law of the land (although I bet the Supreme Court will strike it down because of the unfair burden is places upon the states) however, what bothers the hell out of me is that we could have obtained 100% coverage for all Americans without having to write thousands of pages of bull**** (there should be a law against such ridiculous long written bills. writing so many pages is done on purpose to hide things).

    First, the government could have capped mal-practice awards at $250,000. This would have lowered mal-practice insurance premiums which doctors have to pay.

    Second, why does the left oppose allowing insurance companies to operate across state lines? If I own a health insurance company in New York I can only sell health insurance in that state. This has had the effect of severely limiting competition and removing this barrier would have allowed lower prices. Sounds like a victory for a few large companies to price fix (so much for the left being the party of anti-big business)...

    I dont understand why these 2 simple reforms were not attempted. It wouldn't have cost the government or the tax payer a dime and in fact the result would have been the decrease in healthcare costs.

    Instead, now you are REQUIRED to purchase insurance by 2014 and failure to do so is a crime. We now have entered an age where the government can force you to purchase a product from government or the few insurance companies which operate in the states.

    Finally, look at the concessions the administration had to lend to certain congressmen. These back room deals and unnecessarily long bill which NO ONE PERSON has read is simply outrageous.

    My own conclusion is the left NEEDS to control us for some anal sadistic reason. We could have had 100% coverage and the only people who would have lost out were the goddamn lawyers who make millions off of mal-practice law suits. Instead of millions per case theyd be making (if they take 25%) at most $62,500 per case (how terrible!).
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  2. #2
    Registered User hooked4life's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by loknar View Post

    My own conclusion is the left NEEDS to control us for some anal sadistic reason. We could have had 100% coverage and the only people who would have lost out were the goddamn lawyers who make millions off of mal-practice law suits. Instead of millions per case theyd be making (if they take 25%) at most $62,500 per case (how terrible!).
    it never ceases to amaze me how some people can just ignore facts over and over.

    medical malpractice is an extremely small part of the cost.

    not to mention mandating how much relief someone can get from the court, the last bastion of our legal rights, it's pretty much the ultimate control over anyone's life.
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    I stopped reading after the title.
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    Originally Posted by AKR View Post
    I stopped reading after the title.
    Well the title is all you need to know to answer the question...
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    Registered User loknar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hooked4life View Post
    it never ceases to amaze me how some people can just ignore facts over and over.

    medical malpractice is an extremely small part of the cost.

    not to mention mandating how much relief someone can get from the court, the last bastion of our legal rights, it's pretty much the ultimate control over anyone's life.
    It's true that it's a small portion of the cost, however have you considered that our court system is clogged with bull**** cases?

    I"m sorry but I have a real problem with this because the only people who benefit are the so called 'trial' lawyers.

    You have to realize that your doctor is imperfect and can make mistakes. Depending on the severity of the mistake you should be awarded something but if it's something minor why should someone be awarded $300,000?

    Also, this mindset leads to defensive medicine which leads to unnecessary testing.
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    The left is by definition "control."

    Thats just the way it is.
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  8. #8
    Registered User hooked4life's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by loknar View Post
    It's true that it's a small portion of the cost, however have you considered that our court system is clogged with bull**** cases?

    I"m sorry but I have a real problem with this because the only people who benefit are the so called 'trial' lawyers.

    You have to realize that your doctor is imperfect and can make mistakes. Depending on the severity of the mistake you should be awarded something but if it's something minor why should someone be awarded $300,000?

    Also, this mindset leads to defensive medicine which leads to unnecessary testing.
    ohh so it's not a health care cost it's a state trial cost cost?

    that doesn't factor into the federal budget at all.

    you speak of 'liberals' taking away freedom but you propose to define when someone can have one of their most basic constitutional freedom - a trial by their peers?
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  9. #9
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    Why do liberals want to control everything?
    This is laughable (BTW Im center, leaning left on alot of issues)

    Second, why does the left oppose allowing insurance companies to operate across state lines?
    IMHO this is a HUGE fail. It would significantly drive down costs, and I cant think of anything more important if youre going to mandate everyone get insurance.
    Last edited by JonZ; 03-25-2010 at 01:08 PM.
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    Originally Posted by loknar View Post
    First, the government could have capped mal-practice awards at $250,000. This would have lowered mal-practice insurance premiums which doctors have to pay.
    If you think passing HCR was hard, passing a malpractice cap will be next to impossible. The trial lawyers are one of the most powerful lobbies in the nation, and would exert enormous influence to make sure this never happens
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    The facts speak for themselves.

    This bill has 2400 pages, there are only about 6-7 main highlights that the media reports on. So ummmm WHAT THE **** IS IN THE REST OF THE 2000+ PAGES OF THE BILL?!?!

    Honestly, I don't even care anymore. It's all hopeless. America is not America anymore.

    Someone send me a PM when the federal government crumbles so can we rebuild America to the way it's supposed to be.
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    I'm going to ignore all the ignorance in OP, and address the only valid thing I see...

    I agree with allowing the companies to sell across state lines, but the reason they can't isn't because of the federal government. It's mostly b/c each state has the power to regulate it's own health insurance industry. People in Texas might not feel their industry needs the same rules and regulations as people in Massachusettes. So by "allowing" the companies the ability to sell across state lines, you're in essence disallowing the states from deciding what's best for their own people. Who do you want to have more power? Your local state government or the federal government ruling that all states have to play by the same rules?

    I think standardization would make sense, but as soon as it gets proposed, people from the right would bitch about that too.
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    My answer

    First mistake is calling the group you are referring to as 'liberal.' Statists, welfare statists, Marxists, socialist leaning, or a few other names would be more accurate. I myself am liberal in many ways (root word: liberty) because I lean towards a libertarian philosophy. Do not make the mistake of calling lovers of govt control 'liberal.'

    To answer your question, it extends far beyond the latest issue, health care. It goes into a mistrust of people to make decisions for themselves. The statists believe people are too stupid to determine their own fate, so it is the job of especially the federal government to make all of their important decisions for them.

    It also extends from a term I am have never heard but would simply call them having poor consequential peripheral vision. They see their end goal and only their end goal, fooling themselves into believing that unintended consequences do not exist. Only gummy drop rainbows and smiles. No need to weigh the good with the bad, because the bad does not exist. And if it does, oh well who cares, as controlling things more is going to make them feel better. What matters is that they have/had good intentions. So what if the results are disasterous? For some reason that reminds me of the newest phenomenon of all kids getting a medal or trophy for even competing in an event. But I digress...

    I am referring to the non-political class above. While some in the political class fall into that description, for them it is quite simple. Power is seductive. Power also gets to some people's heads, giving them an overblown sense of self.
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    Limited Liability Partner gjohnson5's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JuanDenver View Post
    Can you please work on making constructive posts in the future?

    Thanks.


    Why don't the Conservative trolls make constructive treads with constructive posts themselves?

    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by gjohnson5 View Post


    Why don't the Conservative trolls make constructive treads with constructive posts themselves?

    Thanks
    see post directly above yours, though I very much hesitate to label myself as 'conservative.'
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    Originally Posted by frankenstein View Post
    see post directly above yours, though I very much hesitate to label myself as 'conservative.'
    Hypocrisy.....

    Why is it OK to say "liberals" want to do this and taboo to say "Consrvatives" want to do that?
    If the thread started with a bogus generalization , then that opens the door for more generalizations.
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    Originally Posted by gjohnson5 View Post
    Hypocrisy.....

    Why is it OK to say "liberals" want to do this and taboo to say "Consrvatives" want to do that?
    If the thread started with a bogus generalization , then that opens the door for more generalizations.
    A liberal isnt a liberal at all. (L vs. l)

    The proper term is leftist. The very opposite of a liberal.


    Leftists are people who want a controling government.
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    Originally Posted by JuanDenver View Post
    A liberal isnt a liberal at all. (L vs. l)

    The proper term is leftist. The very opposite of a liberal.


    Leftists are people who want a controling government.
    let the silly generalizations and hypocrisy continue
    Kickin your azz everytime
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    You can boil it down to individualism vs. collectivism. Do you believe in the preservation of the rights of the individual, or do you believe in the greater common good of the collective. There are good and bad forms of collectivism, but generally why most who prefer individualism choose so because of the corruption of the power enabled by having persons grouped into collectives and controlled by centralized powers.

    I see potential benefit from working as a collective, but I think the risks of tyrannical abuses of the collective are too high. Individualism grants me the freedom to prosper or fail on my own merits, not to merely obey and hope my interests are taken care of by those I am obeying.

    Most all American politicians are collectivists, Republicans and Democrats alike. They merely bicker and war with one another because THEY want to be the ones in charge of the collective. The religious conservatives have one view they want put on the collective, the neoconservatives have other designs on what the collective should be doing. The classic liberals have a view of collective society, and the progressives have another. The individualist view has been pushed out of American politics because there is too much money and power at stake, and everyone wants a piece of it.

    Mainstream Republicans right now are buddying up with Libertarians because they want control of the collective back from the Democrats. Libertarians are actually individualist in nature, so they should be vary wary of getting in bed with the collectivist mainstream GOP lest they get tossed aside in the future once the Republicans have control again.

    Our government was supposed to be By the People and For the People- Its main purpose to protect our liberties and our sovereignty. The Constitution is a document written to limit the power of the government to rule over us as a collective. It is meant to protect the individual. It was during a time where people were revolting from the abuses of a collectivist ideal run amok.

    Our government was designed to have elected officials represent the people's interests in the making, execution of, and judgment of laws limited by what the constitution had decided did not overwhelm the right of an individual to be free. Somewhere along the line, the constitution's ideals were overwhelmed by collectivist onslaughts, the powers of our government were hijacked, and we are left with a false 2-part system that merely fights over CONTROL.
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    Give me a break, you talk about control. Hell the right is always in everyones business. Try to legislate their beliefs on everyone else. Take about anything and the right is trying to control it.

    Even on health care the right wants to "control" who has access to it.
    You can, and need to find a ground that you know you are suppose to stand on.. hence, stand your ground, this is the place where you know everything is as it should be for you. If you stand in a place where you know in your heart things are wrong, most things around you will never be right.

    Rule number one, never work at being what another man defines as being "honorable", Honorable is is being true to what you know and and doing what you know is right for you..

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    Originally Posted by gjohnson5 View Post
    Hypocrisy.....

    Why is it OK to say "liberals" want to do this and taboo to say "Consrvatives" want to do that?
    If the thread started with a bogus generalization , then that opens the door for more generalizations.
    you could address the things I mentioned instead of getting all huffy puffy about my qualms with the mistaken semantics that inaccurately describe people as 'liberal' or 'conservative.' I do not wish to hijack the thread, but there is nothing 'liberal' about wanting individuals to have less control of their lives and cede control over to kings, I mean, uhh federal politicians. There is nothing politically conservative (only religiously conservative) about believing it is okay to interfere with what or who people put into their own bodies. Starting with those two premises, we can then continue with the first post I had in this thread......
    ---ATTENTION ALL FATASSES: stop whining and put the fork down!!

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    Originally Posted by gjohnson5 View Post


    Why don't the Conservative trolls make constructive treads with constructive posts themselves?

    Thanks
    I love how you and other posters assume that everyone who opposes this bill are right wing extremists.

    Since when did self sufficiency, individualism and freedom become a political end in America? If you're for any of the above in today's society, you are considered a nutjob. A selfish nutjob at that. Sad.



    Originally Posted by frankenstein View Post
    First mistake is calling the group you are referring to as 'liberal.' Statists, welfare statists, Marxists, socialist leaning, or a few other names would be more accurate. I myself am liberal in many ways (root word: liberty) because I lean towards a libertarian philosophy. Do not make the mistake of calling lovers of govt control 'liberal.'

    To answer your question, it extends far beyond the latest issue, health care. It goes into a mistrust of people to make decisions for themselves. The statists believe people are too stupid to determine their own fate, so it is the job of especially the federal government to make all of their important decisions for them.

    It also extends from a term I am have never heard but would simply call them having poor consequential peripheral vision. They see their end goal and only their end goal, fooling themselves into believing that unintended consequences do not exist. Only gummy drop rainbows and smiles. No need to weigh the good with the bad, because the bad does not exist. And if it does, oh well who cares, as controlling things more is going to make them feel better. What matters is that they have/had good intentions. So what if the results are disasterous? For some reason that reminds me of the newest phenomenon of all kids getting a medal or trophy for even competing in an event. But I digress...

    I am referring to the non-political class above. While some in the political class fall into that description, for them it is quite simple. Power is seductive. Power also gets to some people's heads, giving them an overblown sense of self.
    Wow, excellent post!
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    Originally Posted by mntbikedude View Post
    Give me a break, you talk about control. Hell the right is always in everyones business. Try to legislate their beliefs on everyone else. Take about anything and the right is trying to control it.

    Even on health care the right wants to "control" who has access to it.
    So what do you choose? Are you picking a side in the "control" fight on who you want to control you? Do you think perhaps there could be a better way than voting on who gets to control you?
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    Originally Posted by NukeDukem View Post
    So what do you choose? Are you picking a side in the "control" fight on who you want to control you? Do you think perhaps there could be a better way than voting on who gets to control you?
    I see it this way, I got screwed by the insurance industry. The government is simply righting a wrong. They are not controling me, rather they are providing a way for me to have fair insurance again.

    The men and women that have put their political careers on the line are my hero's. You all are being duped by the right wing, they aren't worried about your rights. Really what you are fighting for is to be controled by the insurance industry.
    You can, and need to find a ground that you know you are suppose to stand on.. hence, stand your ground, this is the place where you know everything is as it should be for you. If you stand in a place where you know in your heart things are wrong, most things around you will never be right.

    Rule number one, never work at being what another man defines as being "honorable", Honorable is is being true to what you know and and doing what you know is right for you..

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    Originally Posted by hooked4life View Post
    ohh so it's not a health care cost it's a state trial cost cost?

    that doesn't factor into the federal budget at all.

    you speak of 'liberals' taking away freedom but you propose to define when someone can have one of their most basic constitutional freedom - a trial by their peers?
    I thought a big problem for doctors is that they have to buy extremely expensive 'malpractice insurance' because of all the lawsuits?

    Originally Posted by mntbikedude View Post
    I see it this way, I got screwed by the insurance industry. The government is simply righting a wrong. They are not controling me, rather they are providing a way for me to have fair insurance again.

    The men and women that have put their political careers on the line are my hero's. You all are being duped by the right wing, they aren't worried about your rights. Really what you are fighting for is to be controled by the insurance industry.
    Problem - reaction - solution.

    You're the one being duped.
    Last edited by Stizzel; 03-25-2010 at 02:29 PM.
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    Originally Posted by mntbikedude View Post
    I see it this way, I got screwed by the insurance industry. The government is simply righting a wrong. They are not controling me, rather they are providing a way for me to have fair insurance again.

    The men and women that have put their political careers on the line are my hero's. You all are being duped by the right wing, they aren't worried about your rights. Really what you are fighting for is to be controled by the insurance industry.
    Are you going to sit there and tell me the insurance companies aren't in cahoots with the federal government?
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    Originally Posted by US.Patriot View Post
    Are you going to sit there and tell me the insurance companies aren't in cahoots with the federal government?
    No, of course not! This mandate that we all buy from the evil insurance companies was the government's idea, 110%, for our own good!

    Nothing sticks it to greedy, scum sucking corporate swine like forcing millions of people to pay them!

    They HATE it!
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    No, of course not! This mandate that we all buy from the evil insurance companies was the government's idea, 110%, for our own good!

    Nothing sticks it to greedy, scum sucking corporate swine like forcing millions of people to pay them!

    They HATE it!
    They insurance industry is being forced to accept EVERYONE, they don't want that. They want to continue to pick and choose who to insure. And then to drop those that do get sick. The insurance industry does not want this bill.
    You can, and need to find a ground that you know you are suppose to stand on.. hence, stand your ground, this is the place where you know everything is as it should be for you. If you stand in a place where you know in your heart things are wrong, most things around you will never be right.

    Rule number one, never work at being what another man defines as being "honorable", Honorable is is being true to what you know and and doing what you know is right for you..

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